Poor quality / perishable rubbers

[Juicedrinker]

I am becoming thoroughly dismayed at the apparent quality drop in materials used on my Lexus RC300H 2019 (only 26,000 miles).

I've owned 2 Lexus cars before one I kept until 105,000 IS200 and the other 125,000 IS250.  Both had superb quality leather and plastic / rubber trim on them and them with no splits apart from the IS250 having perished rubber occurring close to front windscreen, it started after 110,000 miles so was forgivable.

However I have now owned my 5 year old RC300H (25,000 miles) for just over a year having bought it at 17,000 miles at 4 years old.  The seats I have had to repair due to cracking even though I regularly condition them, I have notice some of the plastics fading even though I also treat those.  Then last weekend I noticed two splits at the same point on each side as in photos below.  I think this is really poor for any car of 5 years old with low mileage let alone a Lexus.   

I have owned MANY cars and had many business cars all of various brands and also and have in a lot of cases done well in excess of 80,000 miles, my last private Mazda MX5 was at 125,000 when i sold it.  None of them (apart from the S2000 drivers seat side bolster) have had seat leather issues and all their rubbers and plastics have remained intact.

Has anyone else noticed this specific rubber split on their RC's by chance?

      

 

[Linas.P]

52 minutes ago, Juicedrinker said:

 The seats I have had to repair due to cracking even though I regularly condition them

That is your answer - you should not condition sealed leather, it only attracts the dirt and wears out leather quicker. Unless by conditioner you mean "sealant". If you want to hydrate sealed leather then there are product for that, for example I have used Angelwax Hyde-rate and instead of covering your seats with grease it is formulated to chemically attract moisture into the seats (this is what sealed leather needs), but it does leave leather kind of sticky as well. So what I usually do is to spray it in the evening (obviously after thoughtfully cleaning the leather), leave it overnight, then buff excess and spray leather sealant on top, so basically all the moisture it attracts gets sealed under the sealant. At least that is the theory.

That said - yes IS 3rd gen and RC has much thinner leather (thinner or less durable) compared to say 2nd gen IS/GS. When I bought my RC it had 44k miles only 2.5 years old and the driver side bolster were worn trough completely. As part of sale Lexus "fixed it", but it always looked shaite. Same issue on 3rd gen IS F-Sport. I also had same cracking on those rubbers, mileage is irrelevant it is the age and also poor design. Frameless window is the cause, it is not so much poor quality rubber, but that par is not designed well, is very thin and just rips. So yes - leather in this generation is very supple, but not as hard wearing as the leather before it. 

 

[Jgtcracer]

5 hours ago, Juicedrinker said:

I am becoming thoroughly dismayed at the apparent quality drop in materials used on my Lexus RC300H 2019 (only 26,000 miles).

I've owned 2 Lexus cars before one I kept until 105,000 IS200 and the other 125,000 IS250.  Both had superb quality leather and plastic / rubber trim on them and them with no splits apart from the IS250 having perished rubber occurring close to front windscreen, it started after 110,000 miles so was forgivable.

However I have now owned my 5 year old RC300H (25,000 miles) for just over a year having bought it at 17,000 miles at 4 years old.  The seats I have had to repair due to cracking even though I regularly condition them, I have notice some of the plastics fading even though I also treat those.  Then last weekend I noticed two splits at the same point on each side as in photos below.  I think this is really poor for any car of 5 years old with low mileage let alone a Lexus.   

I have owned MANY cars and had many business cars all of various brands and also and have in a lot of cases done well in excess of 80,000 miles, my last private Mazda MX5 was at 125,000 when i sold it.  None of them (apart from the S2000 drivers seat side bolster) have had seat leather issues and all their rubbers and plastics have remained intact.

Has anyone else noticed this specific rubber split on their RC's by chance?

      

 

I’m not convinced that this is a general RC issue as I’m sure there are plenty of owners with really good experiences.

I also don’t necessarily agree with @Linas.P, having owned an ISF I don’t consider the RC to be of lesser quality.  
 

Perhaps the stuff you are applying could be exacerbating the issue? 

[Linas.P]

38 minutes ago, Jgtcracer said:

I also don’t necessarily agree with @Linas.P, having owned an ISF I don’t consider the RC to be of lesser quality.  

I didn't say the quality was worse, I just say leather does not last as well. I would even argue - it is semi-objective. Look at say IS250 with 150k miles and most of them only need little bit of cleaning, IS300h F-sport 40k+ most have holes in holster, it is just know weak spot. And overall leather does not feel as sturdy. 

[Jgtcracer]

2 hours ago, Linas.P said:

I didn't say the quality was worse, I just say leather does not last as well. I would even argue - it is semi-objective. Look at say IS250 with 150k miles and most of them only need little bit of cleaning, IS300h F-sport 40k+ most have holes in holster, it is just know weak spot. And overall leather does not feel as sturdy. 

Perhaps the semi aniline leather in the RCF is different, but I maintain that my ISF leather was no thicker or better quality than an RCF.  
 

I will agree that there is a degree of subjectivity involved but don’t agree with the implication that the RC is in some way a lesser or poor quality car, even compared to Lexus models of old.  
 

Suppose this is the beauty of a discussion board….

[Linas.P]

Not sure about RC-F, but I can just compare IS250 I had up-to 200k miles and all the leather was pretty much perfect, with exception of driver side bottom bolster which simply lost it's firmness. As result leather was kind of creased there, but it was not cracked, not pealing and certainly there were no holes in it. Perhaps stuffing maybe 20mm thick piece of foam would have given the firmness it needed and kept leather tensioned... but the leather itself was near indestructible.

Also I now have another IS250 with 104k miles - leather is perfect, GS300 with 174k miles - leather is perfect (it is cut in places, but that is damage previous owners caused) and third GS300 with 94k miles, but ivory leather and situation is similar to first IS250 - leather is creased a little bit because bolster is not as firm as it should be, but leather itself is perfect. So that is at least 4 cars of "old" generation with average mileage of 146k miles between them and no issues with the leather. 

Compare that to 44k miles RC with leather worn trough completely leaving ~5cm long hole. On top of that countless examples of IS300h F- Sports that I have seen to develop the driver side bolster holes at as low as 35k miles. Now sure, part of the issue is more firm bolster specifically on F-Sport, because Premier and lesser trims that didn't get "sport" seats does not have such issue. But as well the leather just feels thinner and generally shows more signs of wear... long before something like 146k miles.

I agree with you that it is a bit early for leather to crack after just 4 years and 26k miles and maybe maintenance products has something to do with it. But I have experience myself that IS 3rd gen and RC interiors does not seem to last as well as older generation. 

Also I am not saying they are bad, I am just saying older generation had exceptional materials that I have seen myself lasting 100k+ without issues. 

[wharfhouse]

7 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Not sure about RC-F, but I can just compare IS250 I had up-to 200k miles and all the leather was pretty much perfect, with exception of driver side bottom bolster which simply lost it's firmness. As result leather was kind of creased there, but it was not cracked, not pealing and certainly there were no holes in it. Perhaps stuffing maybe 20mm thick piece of foam would have given the firmness it needed and kept leather tensioned... but the leather itself was near indestructible.

On my IS 300h (2014 registration Executive - pre-facelift, so it's real leather) the leather is pretty much perfect all over - the only thing as above is some creasing on the driver's seat bolster due to compression from getting in and out of the car, and there is a small white mark where the seat belt buckle catches the driver's side seat back bolster as it retracts, but that could be easily recoloured. I don't do anything to the leather - generally the whole of the interior only gets cleaned by the Lexus dealer when the car is in for a service twice a year - I rarely have time to do anything myself. For 10 years old and 150k miles the interior all looks in nearly as new condition. The only thing that I have just recently had is a small split about 5mm long in the driver's arm rest where my elbow always rests (it's not leather there but vinyl) - I've just added some superglue to that with a black marker pen and it looks acceptable given the car's age and mileage. 

I can't comment comparing previous generations of Lexus cars as this is my first Lexus but compared to BMW and Honda (the other cars we've owned and run to high mileages) the IS 300h seems to be holding up similar to those.

[Juicedrinker]

13 hours ago, Jgtcracer said:

I’m not convinced that this is a general RC issue as I’m sure there are plenty of owners with really good experiences.

I also don’t necessarily agree with @Linas.P, having owned an ISF I don’t consider the RC to be of lesser quality.  
 

Perhaps the stuff you are applying could be exacerbating the issue? 

I only use good brands on all of my cars eg Autoglym or better.  The conditioner I have been using has in fact improved the seats to what they were like but given what Linas and you have said said maybe the previous owner used ******* products.  I am meticulously careful with my cars as have issues like OCD and even refuse to take any passenger apart from my partner or my mum.  No one is allowed in the back which is a good thing for them as wouldn't be a nice place to be cramped in there.  The rubbers on door are shocking quality, Ive had a few coupes (2 for business) and the business cars were 80,000+ when returned and never had this sort of thing occur     

[Juicedrinker]

1 minute ago, Juicedrinker said:

I only use good brands on all of my cars eg Autoglym or better.  The conditioner I have been using has in fact improved the seats to what they were like but given what Linas and you have said said maybe the previous owner used ******* products.  I am meticulously careful with my cars as have issues like OCD and even refuse to take any passenger apart from my partner or my mum.  No one is allowed in the back which is a good thing for them as wouldn't be a nice place to be cramped in there.  The rubbers on door are shocking quality, Ive had a few coupes (2 for business) and the business cars were 80,000+ when returned and never had this sort of thing occur     

 

13 hours ago, Jgtcracer said:

I’m not convinced that this is a general RC issue as I’m sure there are plenty of owners with really good experiences.

I also don’t necessarily agree with @Linas.P, having owned an ISF I don’t consider the RC to be of lesser quality.  
 

Perhaps the stuff you are applying could be exacerbating the issue? 

I have used Autoglym for over 15 years and the leather on my last two Lexus which were high mileage during my ownership (one I clocked up 55,000 in 4 years taking it to 125,000) and no leather damage anywhere.  Either the owner before me has initiated deterioation or I am sure the quality of parts used has been reduced.  I guess all manufacturers work on most people buying on PCP from new and returning car at 3-4 years so they will never see the standards have dropped.  It will only be seen by older used car buyers.   

[Juicedrinker]

17 hours ago, Linas.P said:

That is your answer - you should not condition sealed leather, it only attracts the dirt and wears out leather quicker. Unless by conditioner you mean "sealant". If you want to hydrate sealed leather then there are product for that, for example I have used Angelwax Hyde-rate and instead of covering your seats with grease it is formulated to chemically attract moisture into the seats (this is what sealed leather needs), but it does leave leather kind of sticky as well. So what I usually do is to spray it in the evening (obviously after thoughtfully cleaning the leather), leave it overnight, then buff excess and spray leather sealant on top, so basically all the moisture it attracts gets sealed under the sealant. At least that is the theory.

That said - yes IS 3rd gen and RC has much thinner leather (thinner or less durable) compared to say 2nd gen IS/GS. When I bought my RC it had 44k miles only 2.5 years old and the driver side bolster were worn trough completely. As part of sale Lexus "fixed it", but it always looked shaite. Same issue on 3rd gen IS F-Sport. I also had same cracking on those rubbers, mileage is irrelevant it is the age and also poor design. Frameless window is the cause, it is not so much poor quality rubber, but that par is not designed well, is very thin and just rips. So yes - leather in this generation is very supple, but not as hard wearing as the leather before it. 

 

Hi yes I clean all leather first then hydrate it and leave to dry in garage before sitting in it.  The thing is the worst seat is the passenger seat and that is only used twice per month as we use my partners car when out together most of the time as she doesn't like the RC  

[DavidCM]

My 2020 RC has exactly the same problem where the soft rubber has split, although the splits have not increased in size over the last 2 1/2years.

I treat all the rubber seals with Gummi Pflege (Germans have some great names) twice a year.

Regarding the seats--as far as I can tell only the perforated areas are leather--the bolsters / side supports are some type of plastic.All are slightly creased.Again, the seats are lightly treated with Autoglym twice yearly.

 

[ColinBarber]

1 hour ago, DavidCM said:

the bolsters / side supports are some type of plastic

That shouldn't be the case - certainly isn't on the IS.

[Linas.P]

2 hours ago, ColinBarber said:

That shouldn't be the case - certainly isn't on the IS.

I think he has facelift "Luxury", which has NuLuxe? And as far as I know whole seat not only bolsters are made of it.

3 hours ago, DavidCM said:

My 2020 RC has exactly the same problem where the soft rubber has split, although the splits have not increased in size over the last 2 1/2years.

All RCs I have seen (and before I bought mine I look at at least dozen) has crack in that spot, one exception - my initial test drive RC didn't have it, but that is not surprising considering it was 2 months old car after launch with less than 10k miles on it. Likewise in my ownership it was never an issue, but it was always there. The rubber is unbelievably think in that place, almost transparent, so I put it down to design of the par and not the quality of material. 

6 hours ago, wharfhouse said:

On my IS 300h (2014 registration Executive - pre-facelift, so it's real leather) the leather is pretty much perfect all over - the only thing as above is some creasing on the driver's seat bolster due to compression from getting in and out of the car, and there is a small white mark where the seat belt buckle catches the driver's side seat back bolster as it retracts, but that could be easily recoloured.

It sems then issue is isolated to F-Sport seats, because they have stiffer bolsters, which I have already pointed out above. As most of IS and RC I have seen were F-Sport (as that is the only trim I would consider... and maybe Premier, or Later F-Sport + Takumi) it sort of matches with my observation - they all had issues with leather wearing trough and ripping.

[ColinBarber]

3 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

I think he has facelift "Luxury", which has NuLuxe? And as far as I know whole seat not only bolsters are made of it.

All Luxury grade vehicles have leather. Once you move to the facelift model and the new grade nomenclature then the base grade 'RC' only has Tahara (let's leave the NuLuxe naming for the US forums) unless you get the leather upgrade option.

As you, I'm not aware of any grades that combine both leather and Tahara in the same seat.

[Linas.P]

9 minutes ago, ColinBarber said:

All Luxury grade vehicles have leather. Once you move to the facelift model and the new grade nomenclature then the base grade 'RC' only has Tahara (let's leave the NuLuxe naming for the US forums) unless you get the leather upgrade option.

As you, I'm not aware of any grades that combine both leather and Tahara in the same seat.

Thanks - could not remember how it is called, but am I right to assume Tahara and NuLuxe is the same thing just different name, or it is different material? 

[ColinBarber]

2 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Thanks - could not remember how it is called, but am I right to assume Tahara and NuLuxe is the same thing just different name, or it is different material? 

Yes, it is the same thing - just a different name for a different market. Similar to how the paint colour names are different in the US compared to the UK.

[wharfhouse]

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

It sems then issue is isolated to F-Sport seats, because they have stiffer bolsters, which I have already pointed out above. As most of IS and RC I have seen were F-Sport (as that is the only trim I would consider... and maybe Premier, or Later F-Sport + Takumi) it sort of matches with my observation - they all had issues with leather wearing trough and ripping.

Ah, so more a seat design issue perhaps than the leather itself, which I would assume is the same leather as used on non-F Sport seats which if mine are anything to go by holds up fine.

[ColinBarber]

The higher bolster of a sports seat means they come into contact with and get squashed by the driver/passenger more, which leads to stretching/creasing. Do a search and you will find complaints across all vehicle manufacturer forums. How bad it becomes is somewhat down of how the driver gets in/out, their weight, the position of the seat etc.

[Linas.P]

To be fair apart of driver side bolster and cracker rubber in the same place I didn't have much issues with my RC interior (44k -65k miles). It didn't feel as sturdy as older cars, but as far as leather is concerned it was fine. I used Dodo Juice Supernatural Cleaner/Sealant and leather felt good. Didn't need to hydrate it either. In other hand my car is garaged so does not get too much sun. That said the sealant I used was specifically formulated for UV protection.

[Juicedrinker]

On 7/24/2024 at 10:12 AM, DavidCM said:

My 2020 RC has exactly the same problem where the soft rubber has split, although the splits have not increased in size over the last 2 1/2years.

I treat all the rubber seals with Gummi Pflege (Germans have some great names) twice a year.

Regarding the seats--as far as I can tell only the perforated areas are leather--the bolsters / side supports are some type of plastic.All are slightly creased.Again, the seats are lightly treated with Autoglym twice yearly.

 

Thanks for the recommendation of Gummi Pflege I will look into that.  Sorry to learn that the soft rubber has split on yours also although good to hear its not got any worse. 

[Juicedrinker]

I've established through conversation on the RC Facebook members group that a few people have had issues with the seats on their RC's regarding splits and unacceptable wear.  One was very fortunate in that his Lexus dealer accepted there was an issue on his 2 year old car and eventually replaced the whole seat under warranty!  However others have got nowhere with Lexus at all and two of them said they will never buy a Lexus again.  Interestingly all of these issues appear be on the post facelift models, surely the seats were identical on the pre facelift though?  HOWEVER I am starting to wonder if it is anything to do with a change of supplier for the leather or whatever material it is that they use.

You never know where any of the parts truly originate from in vehicles.  4 years ago we (I work in a Motorsport company) were approached by one of our bigger Japanese race car builders customers to get manufactured a specific fuel line and we had to locate a suitable UK manufacturer to do this.  We then sold them 10 of these lines (@ over 5k each due to extremely low volume and bespoke design).  We eventually (after a year) found out that the part was ending up at Toyota for testing in a new Lexus car that they were working on.  We had to then quote for 500 of them but were told the end price and speed of production was not ok so they were locating alternative manufacturers in Eastern Europe.  In the past year we have supplied many many thousands of a simple rubber mount to a company in the USA that approached us to get manufactured in the UK.  We eventually established (because a handful in each batch failed quality control in the USA and we got a *ollocking so had to in turn very strongly berate the manufacturer as were going to be heavily penalised) that the company we were selling them to were supplying Tesla with some components.  The small company manufacturing them did not want to be put in a position where we could be financially hit because we  in turn would sue them so they stopped supply.