Rear caliper seized - replaced under Extended Warranty

[wharfhouse]

For a few weeks my car has had an intermittent squeal. It would tend to come on after I'd been driving for around an hour and would come and go as the car went over road imperfections and when changing direction. Pressing on the brakes would stop it for a while. I thought it sounded like brake pads binding and so started checking the wheels to see if any were getting warm and the offside rear was getting warmer than the offside near side, though never hot. As the rear discs/pads are still the original and do look rather corroded I decided it was time for Lexus to take a look. 

They confirmed that the offside rear caliper was sticking. Apparently on the ramp it was very difficult to rotate that wheel by hand and on the health check report it said that the rear pads on that side were down to 3mm compared with 9mm on the other side. I'm actually surprised that the wheel wasn't getting hotter. So offside caliper has been replaced and new disc/pads fitted to both sides at the rear.

I have the Lexus 10 Year Plus Extended Warranty on the car which covers the car up to 15 years old / 150,000 miles whichever comes first. My mileage is currently just a few miles short of 150,000. Lexus has replaced the caliper under the 10 Year Plus Extended Warranty just leaving me to pay for the rear discs/pads. That means I have claimed this year at least as much as the warranty cost me. Good to know that Lexus honour the warranty even at this sort of mileage - I had thought they may have claimed a seized caliper was a wear and tear item, but there was no argument about it.

Other than new front wheel bearings at 80,000 miles (also replaced under extended warranty) this has been the only other significant (if you can call it that) fault with the car in nearly 8 years and 110,000 miles of my ownership (and I can't see there having been any faults in it's first two years and 40K miles before I purchased it). It would certainly be nice if I can get another 100K miles out of the car without any other significant work being required.

[Notamech]

What a coincidence..its all ive been researching today. The wifes Jazz has a caliper that seems to be sticking intermittently on the offside rear. Last year the nearside one got stuck and took the brakes and pads with it. Cost us a good £550 to set right. Spending another 550 seems too much on a low value car. Considering doing it myself will be a good learning experience for when it happens to my is300h. 

Was just wondering did they say why it seizes? I thought lexus change the brake fluid every 2 years so in theory the calipers shouldnt go bad.

[Spock66]

1 hour ago, Notamech said:

Was just wondering did they say why it seizes? I thought lexus change the brake fluid every 2 years so in theory the calipers shouldnt go bad.

Just about every manufacturer has the same requirement for brake fluid changes as it absorbs water over time.

The issue is more likely to be the piston has corroded, rubber seals degraded or generally just encrusted with brake dust and road dirt.

[wharfhouse]

11 hours ago, Notamech said:

What a coincidence..its all ive been researching today. The wifes Jazz has a caliper that seems to be sticking intermittently on the offside rear. Last year the nearside one got stuck and took the brakes and pads with it. Cost us a good £550 to set right. Spending another 550 seems too much on a low value car. Considering doing it myself will be a good learning experience for when it happens to my is300h. 

Was just wondering did they say why it seizes? I thought lexus change the brake fluid every 2 years so in theory the calipers shouldnt go bad.

Brake fluid has nothing to do with a caliper seizing. I didn't ask why it had seized. There's been a lot written on this forum about slide pins corroding causing rear calipers to sieze. I've never done any additional maintenance on mine and so it could be due to that. General road dirt, salt, brake dust can also cause some corrosion in the piston area which could cause it to sieze too.

Given I've done 150k miles without a problem I'm not too concerned and the although the rear discs/pads still had quite a bit of meat left on them the discs were getting very pitted and corroded and so I'd been thinking about whether to get those replaced anywhere. I was expecting that one or other rear caliper would fail at some point. A number of years back we had a rear caliper sieze on our Honda Accord around 100k miles - the other side however was still fine when we sold it at 160k miles.

The downside of the caliper siezing is that unless caught early it can mean the rear discs need changing - Lexus charged me £355 for the change of rear discs and pads (as the caliper was done under the 10 Year Plus Extended Warranty) and so like on your Jazz if the other rear caliper goes relatively soon it could mean a new set of rear discs and pads again too and given the rears on the Lexus will last at least 150k miles that would be a bit annoying having had them changed this time! 

 

[Notamech]

Makes sense.So sounds like in your case given the age and mileage it could be a number of reasons the caliper gave up e.g. sticky slide pins, worn piston seal resulting in dirt ingress etc. Also, my understanding is that not changing your brake fluid regularly does result in the caliper piston corroding and eventually siezing. In the case of a car like the jazz people generally dont go to the main dealer after the warranty runs out nor do they bother changing the brake fluid at all. Strangely the problem started after i decided to get the brake fluid changed. Perhaps some of the corrosion inside moved.

The slide pins would have been fine as it had new discs and pads just a couple of years before the 1st caliper went kaput. When it failed we got new discs and pads along with a new refurbished caliper. Like you said we didn't catch it in time. Now the other side seems to have gone. The outer pad wear doesnt look too bad so far. maybe i can still salvage the existing discs and pads. Will have a proper look at the inner pad with the wheel off over the weekend. As these are the ones that wear our more.

[wharfhouse]

15 minutes ago, Notamech said:

Makes sense.So sounds like in your case given the age and mileage it could be a number of reasons the caliper gave up. Also not changing your brake fluid regularly does result in the caliper piston corroding and eventually siezing. In the case of a car like the jazz people generally dont bother changing the brake fluid at all. Strangely the problem started after i decided to get the brake fluid changed. Perhaps some of the corrosion inside moved.

The slide pins would have been fine as it had new discs and pads just a couple of years before the 1st caliper went kaput. Got new discs and pads along with a new refurbished caliper. Now the other side seems to have gone. The pad wear doesnt look too bad so far. maybe i can still salvage the existing discs and pads. Will have a proper look with the wheel off over the weekend.

Ah OK - TBH I've always had brake fluid changed regular on all my cars - maybe not every two years but certainly after a few years as its hygroscipic and so indeed could over the long term cause corrosion if not changed. On my Honda Accord, the garage said the piston has become siezed (or at least not moving properly) so maybe your Jazz has similar issues of the piston sticking. I suppose there could have been some crud in the brake lines that moved with your fluid change though. 

If you have caught it early given your discs and pads are quite new if the pads aren't worn unevenly yet and the discs are in good shape you might be able to just change the caliper or just change the pads with the caliper without having to change the discs again. In my case the discs actually looked similarly worn each side though given the 150k mileage on them and how corded and pitted they were getting I wanted to get them changed anyway. However the pads on my sticking caliper had worn down significantly compared to the other side. 

[Malc1]

it's not good that there's no servicing schedule for calipers with Lexus, nor maybe other marques too ............... at every annual service i ask for the calipers to be checked and overhauled as necessary .............  and I've NEVER had to replace a whole caliper ( yet touch wood ) in some 250k miles driving in my Lexii and other cars too .....  over very many years of course

Just get them looked at and attended to at each annual service whatever 

Malc

[wharfhouse]

17 minutes ago, Malc1 said:

it's not good that there's no servicing schedule for calipers with Lexus, nor maybe other marques too ............... at every annual service i ask for the calipers to be checked and overhauled as necessary .............  and I've NEVER had to replace a whole caliper ( yet touch wood ) in some 250k miles driving in my Lexii and other cars too .....  over very many years of course

Just get them looked at and attended to at each annual service whatever 

Malc

Yes, I don't think any cars I've owned (not just Lexus) have ever had calipers checked/overhauled at a dealers - even when I had cars serviced with independent mechanics they didn't do it - though I never asked them to. I suppose you have to weigh up how much you would pay for having this done annually vs the cost of replacing a caliper now and again - if I was replacing calipers every few years that would be one thing but after 150K miles I'm not complaining.

[steve2006]

I recently posted a topic concerning the rear calipers on the forum and mentioned that re-greasing the slide pins was not a Lexus service item.

This leads me to believe that it is not the actual caliper that seizes (piston) in the majority of cases but the slides due to loss of lubrication and dirt ingress.

[Scotlex]

Great that caliper was replaced under warranty 😀

Caliper replacement appears to be more common nowadays. It is possibly cheaper to replace the caliper rather than overhaul it (which was probably done in the past).

[steve2006]

3 minutes ago, Scotlex said:

Great that caliper was replaced under warranty 😀

Caliper replacement appears to be more common nowadays. It is possibly cheaper to replace the caliper rather than overhaul it (which was probably done in the past).

The replacement caliper under warranty is great but if the additional cost of new discs and pads could have been avoided by using a bit of grease and a few minutes of time, they wouldn’t need replacing if still serviceable.

[Scotlex]

8 minutes ago, steve2006 said:

The replacement caliper under warranty is great but if the additional cost of new discs and pads could have been avoided by using a bit of grease and a few minutes of time, they wouldn’t need replacing if still serviceable.

Yes, very true. When I changed pads myself I used to spend a bit of time cleaning and greasing which always seemed to help. I have never had to replace a caliper.

[wharfhouse]

1 hour ago, steve2006 said:

The replacement caliper under warranty is great but if the additional cost of new discs and pads could have been avoided by using a bit of grease and a few minutes of time, they wouldn’t need replacing if still serviceable.

In this case at 150k miles and nearly 10 years on the original discs and pads I was going to replace them soon anyway - if they were newer though then I agree it would have been an unnecessary expense.

[Scotlex]

34 minutes ago, wharfhouse said:

In this case at 150k miles and nearly 10 years on the original discs and pads I was going to replace them soon anyway - if they were newer though then I agree it would have been an unnecessary expense.

10 years for discs and pads is great. Discs seem to get changed more regularly nowadays too.

Great to see a car getting properly used too, 150k miles. It's what they were designed for 😀

[ZXSpectrum]

Great.. I thought i had got rid of this issue when i sold the GS.. 😞

[IS300FSPORT]

Recently stripped a rear caliper down on a 10 year old Civic that never had a brake fluid change it was evident it had suffered corrosion on the piston. It is a good idea to change brake fluid at a minimum every 3-4 years. 

From working in the trade there are a lot of reason why calipers seize. Typically a bad rubber seal for the piston is the primary cause, followed by infrequent use low mileage drivers, brake fluid contaminated or just age & high water content. Brake servicing is even more important on Hybrids due to the lack of effort involved with the brakes due to regen hybrid system.

I did the IS300H front & rear brake bleed with a vacuum pump all in it took me 1 hour & the hardest part is removing the wheel nuts. Fronts are 10mm brake bleed nipple & rear was 8mm. Attach a vacuum pump & flush out reservoir it took exactly 1L all in. In all honesty the brake pedal feel is exactly the same the last time it was done at Lexus in 2021 according to the invoice so in 3 years it's at 1% measured with a brake fluid tester (not the most accurate) but it is a good indicator now its at 0% water content will monitor it see how quickly it absorbs water.

This is worth a watch

 

[steve2006]

Isn’t a visual check on the colour of the brake fluid an MOT item now also?

[IS300FSPORT]

1 hour ago, steve2006 said:

Isn’t a visual check on the colour of the brake fluid an MOT item now also?

From the Gov site

Hydraulic brake fluid level checks are confined to transparent reservoirs, reservoir caps should not be removed. On many vehicles, you will not be able to see if the brake fluid is contaminated. You should only fail a vehicle if you can clearly see that the fluid is contaminated.

Defect	Category
(a) Brake fluid contaminated	Major

[Maxz]

At 9 years 40k miles I'm also on original discs and pads with plenty of pads left. Had the slide pins re-greased at 20k miles in Aug 2020. It could be my ears being over sensitive again but I am sure I can hear some slight contact/scraping when I first set off (all windows down to listen). It does go away after a few stops and minutes though. Is now a good time to have them redone? Last time Lexus charged £100, assume with inflation it is a bit more now.

Also, aware there is the other thread on checking slide pins already but still looking for a quick way to check for binding. If you had a helper, parked car on a flat surface with just the separate parking brake on, if your helper pumped the brakes and you had a torch, would you be able to observe free movement of the pins/caliper that way?

[wharfhouse]

10 minutes ago, Maxz said:

At 9 years 40k miles I'm also on original discs and pads with plenty of pads left. Had the slide pins re-greased at 20k miles in Aug 2020. It could be my ears being over sensitive again but I am sure I can hear some slight contact/scraping when I first set off (all windows down to listen). It does go away after a few stops and minutes though. Is now a good time to have them redone? Last time Lexus charged £100, assume with inflation it is a bit more now.

Also, aware there is the other thread on checking slide pins already but still looking for a quick way to check for binding. If you had a helper, parked car on a flat surface with just the separate parking brake on, if your helper pumped the brakes and you had a torch, would you be able to observe free movement of the pins/caliper that way?

If you do low mileage then a scraping noise on first setting off is probably just some corrosion on the disc surface which clears on the first few brake applications. You might be able to see the corrosion on the disc before you set off - it only takes a few days not driving, especially if it's wet weather, to form. In my case the brake squeal came on after driving for an hour as things warmed up. A sticking caliper will also cause the wheel that is sticking to be warmer to the touch than the others after you've been driving for a while. If all are the same temperature it won't be sticking caliper. 

Interesting that Lexus charge £100 to clean / grease the pins - supports the thought that by the time that's been done a few times might as well fit a new caliper if it fails. Low annual mileage though is probably more likely to need some additional brake maintenance like that though. In my case I don't know whether it was the slide pins or the piston anyway - the latter is also quite a common failure too (had that on a previous car). Will be interesting to see how long my other side lasts before it needs replacing. 

[Notamech]

2 hours ago, Maxz said:

At 9 years 40k miles I'm also on original discs and pads with plenty of pads left. Had the slide pins re-greased at 20k miles in Aug 2020. It could be my ears being over sensitive again but I am sure I can hear some slight contact/scraping when I first set off (all windows down to listen). It does go away after a few stops and minutes though. Is now a good time to have them redone? Last time Lexus charged £100, assume with inflation it is a bit more now.

Also, aware there is the other thread on checking slide pins already but still looking for a quick way to check for binding. If you had a helper, parked car on a flat surface with just the separate parking brake on, if your helper pumped the brakes and you had a torch, would you be able to observe free movement of the pins/caliper that way?

I am interested in knowing this too. I have very limited experience with brakes. I did jack up the wifes jazz and spun the wheel i suspect had a caliper thats sticky and it does spin freely but with a minor scraping noise. Then i did the same for the front wheel and it spun freely without any noise. Its not corrosion as the car was used just a few hours ago. Googling it i got loads of different answers some saying its normal for the rear brakes to make some contact when the handbrake is released and that it should go away with a bit of driving and braking. So not sure if i have a sticky caliper or not. The wife said she experienced resistance and vibration when driving on the motorway once which is why i started to suspect a sticky caliper. But it doesnt seem to happen always. Also this wheel seems to have more brake dust than the other wheels which further strengthens my suspicion. 

[Malc1]

could be a downside factor in Lexus doing all your car servicing .....  there's no one there who knows how to simply check and adjust a caliper .....  they've only ever gone to simply replacing the unit at £00's methinks   .....  it's just never part of a Service Schedule 

One great advantage of having a straightforward indy to do one's servicing .  checking and overhauling a caliper is second nature methinks and will save one £00's or more

Malc

[wharfhouse]

25 minutes ago, Notamech said:

I am interested in knowing this too. I have very limited experience with brakes. I did jack up the wifes jazz and spun the wheel i suspect had a caliper thats sticky and it does spin freely but with a minor scraping noise. Then i did the same for the front wheel and it spun freely without any noise. Its not corrosion as the car was used just a few hours ago. Googling it i got loads of different answers some saying its normal for the rear brakes to make some contact when the handbrake is released and that it should go away with a bit of driving and braking. So not sure if i have a sticky caliper or not. The wife said she experienced resistance and vibration when driving on the motorway once which is why i started to suspect a sticky caliper. But it doesnt seem to happen always. Also this wheel seems to have more brake dust than the other wheels which further strengthens my suspicion. 

The best test for a sticking caliper is does the wheel get warmer to the touch than it's opposite wheel after eg a half hour drive. If not, then I doubt you have a caliper problem. In my case one wheel was definately warmer (though not hot) although when the tech put it on the ramp and tried to spin the wheel he couldn't move it...! I didn't notice any pulling or anything adverse driving the car other than the intermittent squeal although I did think the mpg had dropped a little but that could have been due to too many other factors other than just the sticking caliper. 

[wharfhouse]

17 minutes ago, Malc1 said:

could be a downside factor in Lexus doing all your car servicing .....  there's no one there who knows how to simply check and adjust a caliper .....  they've only ever gone to simply replacing the unit at £00's methinks   .....  it's just never part of a Service Schedule 

One great advantage of having a straightforward indy to do one's servicing .  checking and overhauling a caliper is second nature methinks and will save one £00's or more

Malc

TBH the issue is finding a good indy. I've been down that route with previous cars and found that although cheaper they skimped on many issues the main dealer did as part of the service - that even included one not changing spark plugs on schedule (even though they listed that they check change as needed) - started having problems with the car - took the the spark plugs out and found all of them were way past replacement so did them myself and the car ran fine again. I don't think there's any right or wrong answer - very dependant on the particular garage - swings and roundabouts. 

[IS300FSPORT]

11 minutes ago, wharfhouse said:

TBH the issue is finding a good indy. I've been down that route with previous cars and found that although cheaper they skimped on many issues the main dealer did as part of the service - that even included one not changing spark plugs on schedule (even though they listed that they check change as needed) - started having problems with the car - took the the spark plugs out and found all of them were way past replacement so did them myself and the car ran fine again. I don't think there's any right or wrong answer - very dependant on the particular garage - swings and roundabouts. 

+1 & some of you may be pleasantly surprised how easy these cars are to work on. It's no different than working on say a Yaris.  The Hybrid system is what generally puts people off but your unlikely to go anywhere near it when doing routine or basic servicing. 

A few youtube tutorials & not only do you save some pennies but also the satisfaction of knowing the job has been done properly. Stick with genuine parts where possible & keep the invoices & when it comes to selling it potential buyers are unlikely to debate.