Where to go after the is250 ?

[SeanR]

Just been checking out the gs450h. Nice car but.........

 

Cant justify swapping my 2010 is250 for even the newest model on autotrader which is 2013 and 13k, so that ones out of the running.

 

Cant believe Lexus put such dweeby bhp into their later models in the UK, its like every model has the same set up.

[Linas.P]

Just for reference - the complete post mortem on the issue 

TLDR - stroke sensor fails due to poor design, but Lexus/Aisin does not sell just a stroke sensor under any circumstances... only a complete rack... that makes £200 repair into £10,000 repair.

That said, used racks (if one can find it) are £600, so in ballpark of what I quoted as £500 repair. New parts certainly not in "ballpark" of £2000, but there are possibilities of adapting LC/LS racks which are in that ballpark.

[Linas.P]

4 minutes ago, SeanR said:

newest model on autotrader which is 2013 and 13k, so that ones out of the running.

You set something wrong - 4th gen GS450h was available from 2012 to 2019-ish... when was it officially dropped... in 2020(?). But even before that it was trickle, so finding cars after 2016 is little bit difficult. 

[SeanR]

Oh, i see.

Will look back into it.

 

Cheers

 

Appreciate all the opinions.

[SeanR]

Still cant help being drawn to the RC 300h.

I say that because i like the style and as mentioned at the beginning im not bothered about driving fast.

Is it really such a bad car?, assuming its reliable as cant find much online about folks moaning about faults.

Not even bothered now about getting the sport model, more looking for comfort.

[H3XME]

6 minutes ago, SeanR said:

Still cant help being drawn to the RC 300h.

I say that because i like the style and as mentioned at the beginning im not bothered about driving fast.

Is it really such a bad car?, assuming its reliable as cant find much online about folks moaning about faults.

Not even bothered now about getting the sport model, more looking for comfort.

It's good for a normal commuter. No issues, good cars. I just personally think that they're not worth the money especially when you consider the fact most insurance companies will hit you with a big quote because it's a newer lexus despite them not being really the target of the thefts. You're better off importing a RC350 for similar money that you won't struggle to insure. 

[SeanR]

I might look into the RC350 further, cheers

Was curious about insurance, been quoted £550, which isn't too bad.

Tax £25,

Inquired about the pcp, after trading in my IS, £207 for four years, then hand it back,

That seems a good price, 2016 premier model.

Warranty until end of 2027.

[H3XME]

40 minutes ago, SeanR said:

I might look into the RC350 further, cheers

Was curious about insurance, been quoted £550, which isn't too bad.

Tax £25,

Inquired about the pcp, after trading in my IS, £207 for four years, then hand it back,

That seems a good price, 2016 premier model.

Warranty until end of 2027.

Oh, if your insurance is only £550 then it makes sense.the best quote I had was £1700 on a facelift rc300h.. In comparison is250 cost me under £500/year and the 3.5 mark x is only £150ish more.

For £200odd I'd do it! You'll have the option to keep it if you pay the final balloon payment. 

[SeanR]

Im paying £300 on the IS at the moment so it has nearly doubled, didnt expect it to be honest.

Doubt id keep it, il see

Would just have keep in top notch condition for handing it back

[Linas.P]

1 hour ago, SeanR said:

Is it really such a bad car?

It is not horrible car, just very slow and sort of doesn't match the appearance. Basically it is a Prius with supercar body. If you set your expectation for Prius then you will be very happy with it, but if you set your expectation for sport car you will be very disappointed. 

Also unlike IS250 - IS/GS/RC300h doesn't like to be pushed to the limit. IS250 the further you push it the more rewarding it is it, the hybrid is opposite, you have to drive it sedately, like a pensioner, then it is relaxing, comfortable and quiet - it is pleasant car to drive slowly I am not even joking. But never press accelerator above 25%, it just becomes noisy, engine sound is nasty, CVT drony, it almost seems broken and the faster you drive it the more punishing it gets. Again - when I drove it for the first time, I have "launched" it few times from the lights and not only that I was disappointed, I was scared that maybe I broke the car, because it just felt so wrong... IS250 running on 3 cylinders is probably still more fun. Simply said - there are cars that rewards the driver for driving fast and you want to do it more, RC300h is not one of them. In IS250 you driving on country road and thinking "shaite so sad the limit here is just 50MPH", in RC300h you driving on the same road and you thinking "who needs 50MPH limit... I will stay at 40".

So yes - certainly not a car for "boy racers", which perhaps is a good thing... but it just doesn't match the appearance. 

[SeanR]

Cheers, appreciate the no nonsense advice.

I'm in no rush.

Its a 4 year ownership, so i guess what may sound tempting now may not do when the reality hits, as is usually the case with motors.

A few things were niggling me anyways, its just the price was tempting.

One is the fact the car is still 8 years old and warranty wont outlast the duration of ownership. I know Lexus are known for reliability but who knows what can go wrong, its always a worry on any car.

The other niggle. I know my IS is 14 years old but its still reliable, not even any MOT advisories.

I guess i would expect a bit more humph from such a sporty looking motor like the RC.

Im an old git now and doing the downsizing thing, will have a bit more cash to throw around when the house is sold. Perhaps better to just hang on

 

I will get more for my IS anyways, selling it privately.

Also, want to stick with Lexus and ideally not sure about importing a car, unsure what hassles will come with trying to get a warranty here?. Parts in the future. insurance.

Not many later GS450 about, at all. 

 

Thanks for all your replies, appreciated.

 

[SeanR]

Makes sense now, its just sank in that they use a 4 cylinder engine.

No wonder its noisy at high revs.

Drove home from work a while ago actually enjoying the fact my IS has a 6 cylinder, feel like a rebel in this day and age.

Feeling its age a bit, but like i said, still adequate.

 

[Linas.P]

8 hours ago, SeanR said:

Its a 4 year ownership, so i guess what may sound tempting now may not do when the reality hits, as is usually the case with motors.

One is the fact the car is still 8 years old and warranty wont outlast the duration of ownership. I know Lexus are known for reliability but who knows what can go wrong, its always a worry on any car.

The other niggle. I know my IS is 14 years old but its still reliable, not even any MOT advisories.

For me it was when my IS250 with nearly 200k miles was written-off, until then I could not justify moving on, but when car had category-N on it I could not justify maintaining it anymore (until that point it was in perfect condition despite the mileage). And I honestly really wanted to replace it, it was already my third IS250 and I had it for 5 years (normally do not keep cars for more than 3), but just could not find replacement for it.

Another nice thing with IS250, even if it fails, you can be sure repair will be cheap, there is basically nothing that can fail and cost thousands to fix... even engine + gearbox can be replaced for £1000.

The other thing that swayed my decision back then was just amazing prices at which RCs were selling before covid, and also that I found the car with every single option (like literally). They were really sinking like ankers back then - I paid £15,500 for mid-2016 (66 plate, I think August registered) RC200t in November 2019. And car had everything (because they have so few options) - Mark Levinson audio, Sunroof, Premiums Sat-Nav and Protection Pack. Further it was perfect colour for me (that I specifically wanted, black with rose interior). I even said - as soon as the car for right price comes I am buying one, be it 300h or 200t... but even at that price, even the perfectly configured car... I just could not live with it. At least I sold it at profit for £19,900 in 2021. 

RC as far as I know is reliable car, 300h, 200t... all of them. That said on mine the driver seat motor failed, the car was still warranted (bought it 2.5 years old with 46,000 miles, so still under manufacturer warranty, sales warranty and relax warranty), but the price of repair has spooked me, they replaced all motors in the seat base at the cost of £4,200. Now is that price realistic out of warranty... no probably not, you can find used seat, if needed the leather can bet transferred from old seat and it is maybe £500 job. But it just goes to show - they are £40k cars and they are not cheap to repair if one goes wrong. Also the brakes are expensive on 200t (I believe 300h has small brakes before facelift, which are cheap), but again... kind of long story - Lexus dealer basically sold it to me without brakes, failed to inspect the car, told me that it passed the inspection when in fact it had no brake pads left. That was discovered when car went in for seat repair and I insisted they replace them... again it was £1,300 (all discs and pads). Now sure... again - it can be done for less, I think discs are £300 and pads probably £180, but on IS250 all in is £180. 

In summary - RC is more expensive to maintain than IS250, despite delivering less driving pleasure. Apart of the looks, I think there was only one thing that I enjoyed in RC where it is much better than IS250... and surprisingly that is practicality. RC has folding rear seats, meaning I can literally put 2 bicycles inside, but that is about it. In other hand (I know it is getting repetitive) - RC350 would be perfect car, not too fast, but fast enough for sports car and yet without all costs associated with owning RC-F (RC-F also doesn't have folding rear seats 🙂 ).

[SeanR]

Wow, that seat motor issue out of warranty would be a nightmare.

Had all that in the Merc and to be honest it did my head in from day one. I didn't need the seats to move about as much as they did and even then thought they would likely break, so i switched that off

Then the engine broke lol.

Pity they couldn't keep keep the V6 for the RC but i guess that's all down to the emission laws.

Nice looking motors the RC, a shame. Was reading through the RC posts earlier, seems some folks really like them even though they lack power. 

 

 

 

 

[Linas.P]

8 minutes ago, SeanR said:

Was reading through the RC posts earlier, seems some folks really like them even though they lack power. 

It is perfectly adequate commuters car. As I said, look at it this way - imagine you want to buy Prius (just a reliable and fuel efficient car to drive to work or around town), you come to the dealership and there are 2 versions, one is typical MPV that we all know and another one is this pretty coupe body. You choose to buy coupe and you are happy with it. For commuting it is fine, it looks beautiful on driveway, it is comfortable.. what not to love?!

Now imagine you looking for 2 doors sports car, your selection maybe be BMW 4-Series, Porsche Cayman, MB E300 Coupe etc. And Lexus RC seems to fit into the same category, but when you drive one it feels like economy hybrid taxi... obviously you will be disappointed.

Lexus is also guilty of adverting it wrong, I would not go as far as calling it false advertisement, but it is very least disingenious. They keep talking about how "dynamic and sporty" is 300h and how 300h is equal to 3L petrol engine... and it is absolute BS! Therefore anyone coming from say IS250 would be reasonably expecting improvement in overall dynamics, it basically should feel like GS300/IS300 to drive... and I know how those drive, I know that where IS250 is barely adequate, the GS300 actually feels powerful car. Basically that 40hp is what IS250 was always missing for my liking. So it is reasonable to expect that performance of RC300h will be equal to that of GS300 (at very least, considering it is 10 years newer car)... but it is not, it is slow and sluggish.

So it is kind of matter of perspective, but Lexus themselves really didn't help the matter with their deceptive marketing.

[SeanR]

Aye, cant imagine it ever being like a gs300.

To be honest, the first time i went looking at one i though it looked a bit boring but when i got behind the wheel i was sold, just by the way it drove.

Never forgot that, the good times.

Could balance a pound coin on the engine whilst it was ticking over

[Linas.P]

That just shows how deceptive is the marketing of Lexus - they say 300h = 300 of the old. And to be honest on paper it kind of makes sense - in place of 3L V6, they put 2.5L engine + hybrid power. I think combined power is also something like 260HP, 180 from the ICE and 80 form electric motor + like 100Nm from stand still. So it seems to add-up, old V6 was 248HP, new hybrid is 260HP... sure it is L4 and does not sound good, but that is sacrifice worthy the improvement... 

Sadly, all this falls apart as soon as it hits the road, old GS300 did 0-60 in 7.2s, new 300h is 9.2s... then Lexus says... well yeah, but you can't just combine the power, so we rate the powertrain at 221HP... but even that doesn't make sense... if 248HP is good for 7.2s, 208HP from IS250 is good for 8.4s, then how is 221HP ends-up 9.2s. Not to mention the electric motor should specifically be most advantageous at low speeds and having instant 80HP should do wonders. See BMW330e - that does 6.1s to 60... so that is ballpark for where 300h should be.

I am not engineer and I don't know the reason of why or why not, but purely from marketing perspective that engine configuration should have been designated as 200h, maybe 220h... anything above that is deceptive.

[H3XME]

35 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

but purely from marketing perspective that engine configuration should have been designated as 200h, maybe 220h... anything above that is deceptive.

Purely from a marketing perspective, this is exactly why they called it 300h, not 200h. 300 looks better and marketing is all about making something look good enough for you to want it, and they have achieved just that. If anything, it was VERY clever marketing. Especially when you take into account 90% Lexus clientele. They seek luxury, comfort, serenity & smoothness. And the 300h powertrain does just that and you will be happy with it UNTIL you step on its neck. That's where things go south, but for most people, this is acceptable.. everyone's so scared of fuel bills and speeding tickets and not enough people appreciate a good engine. 300h makes sense. One thing I'll never get over though is the deceiving design, I can't even fault the car for this, because 350 would be perfect and there would be no issues, IF they ever brought it to this side of the world.

[H3XME]

It seems like every time there is a car discussion, we always come to the same conclusion. The answer is always RC350 🇯🇵😅

[Linas.P]

1 minute ago, H3XME said:

Purely from a marketing perspective, this is exactly why they called it 300h, not 200h. 300 looks better and marketing is all about making something look good enough for you to want it, and they have achieved just that. If anything, it was VERY clever marketing. Especially when you take into account 90% Lexus clientele. They seek luxury, comfort, serenity & smoothness. And the 300h powertrain does just that and you will be happy with it UNTIL you step on its neck. That's where things go south, but for most people, this is acceptable.. everyone's so scared of fuel bills and speeding tickets and not enough people appreciate a good engine. 300h makes sense. One thing I'll never get over though is the deceiving design, I can't even fault the car for this, because 350 would be perfect.. this is just UK/EU problem.

I would agree if not for endless BS marketing material talking about how "dynamic", "exhilarating" (precisely this word was used), "segment leading" is the performance.

If they had it called 300h and never said anything about it, then I would almost call it fair... like "infer what you like, we not saying it is or it isn't"... but they really gone to town praising the specifically PERFORMANCE of it. They could have praised how "comfortable, serenity and smooth" it is - that is fair, that is true... but why focus so much on performance. I mean I know why... they knew it is inadequate, so they had to compensate for it. And look at how many people felt for it, IS300h owners still hate me to this day for telling the way it is, nearly got banned from the forum, because they could not accept that they were deceived by that marketing. This is toxic shaite!

As for design... this is how it is - people like to pretend, they like shiny things... look at all the BMWs and Mercs... most of them are C200, E220d, 420i... they are all shaite engined cars, but with badge delete, some AMG and M-Sport glitter they are proudly parked on the driveways. Very rarely you will see C53 or 440i. But at least you know... BMW isn't calling car that takes 10s to 60 a 430!

[SeanR]

Was just looking on autotrader at BMW and Mercedes (though i said id never get another)

One car that caught my eye was the Merc C300, 

Also, do like Merc C class coupe.

Back of my mind though, Merc can be money pits, BMW too.

Cars are so computerized in this day and age, made me so wary.

Brand new with warranty, ok, but used and out of warranty, well. 

[H3XME]

3 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

I would agree if not for endless BS marketing material talking about how "dynamic", "exhilarating" (precisely this word was used), "segment leading" is the performance.

If they had it called 300h and never said anything about it, then I would almost call it fair... like "infer what you like, we not saying it is or it isn't"... but they really gone to town praising the specifically PERFORMANCE of it. They could have praised how "comfortable, serenity and smooth" it is - that is fair, that is true... but why focus so much on performance. I mean I know why... they knew it is inadequate, so they had to compensate for it. And look at how many people felt for it, IS300h owners still hate me to this day for telling the way it is, nearly got banned from the forum, because they could not accept that they were deceived by that marketing. This is toxic shaite!

As for design... this is how it is - people like to pretend, they like shiny things... look at all the BMWs and Mercs... most of them are C200, E220d, 420i... they are all shaite engined cars, but with badge delete, some AMG and M-Sport glitter they are proudly parked on the driveways. Very rarely you will see C53 or 440i. But at least you know... BMW isn't calling car that takes 10s to 60 a 430!

To be honest, the handling itself is not bad at all, even on the 300h. I did enjoy everything the car did until I wanted to GO. So performance isn't necessarily  measured in HP or 0-60times, but I mostly agree with you. It's like most of the the marketing everywhere. They always want to "trick" you into thinking it's the best thing ever. I don't have an issue with it. At the end of the day, people should make their own opinion on stuff. e.g. Go for a test drive, it may suit you and only you. I only have an issue with the fact that the looks doesn't match the feeling from under the right foot unless you get the RCF..(..or 350 but that's less relevant as it wasn't never sold on this continent). 

Again, I agree.. people want flashy cars without the bills of flashy cars😂 Makes those body shapes a lot less special. 4 series is a good looking car, but when you see the 420D badge on the back of it, it's a huge anti-climax 😂

[H3XME]

5 minutes ago, SeanR said:

Was just looking on autotrader at BMW and Mercedes (though i said id never get another)

One car that caught my eye was the Merc C300, 

Also, do like Merc C class coupe.

Back of my mind though, Merc can be money pits, BMW too.

Cars are so computerized in this day and age, made me so wary.

Brand new with warranty, ok, but used and out of warranty, well. 

Yeah well that's it. I keep having this conversation with my dad. He wants something new, but there is really f#ck all to choose from if you don't want an "older" car.. I am working on him though! He does like the 3IS 350 or Toyota Crown (2013+) also with the same 2GR engines, but doesn't feel brave enough to buy an import without being able to see it / drive it first.

[Linas.P]

11 minutes ago, H3XME said:

To be honest, the handling itself is not bad at all, even on the 300h. I did enjoy everything the car did until I wanted to GO. So performance isn't necessarily  measured in HP or 0-60times, but I mostly agree with you. It's like most of the the marketing everywhere. They always want to "trick" you into thinking it's the best thing ever. I don't have an issue with it. At the end of the day, people should make their own opinion on stuff. e.g. Go for a test drive, it may suit you and only you. I only have an issue with the fact that the looks doesn't match the feeling from under the right foot unless you get the RCF..(..or 350 but that's less relevant as it wasn't never sold on this continent). 

Again, I agree.. people want flashy cars without the bills of flashy cars😂 Makes those body shapes a lot less special. 4 series is a good looking car, but when you see the 420D badge on the back of it, it's a huge anti-climax 😂

Never said anything bad about handling, even on my first test drive I complemented adaptive suspension of RC300h F-Sport, even said that CVT works well in M mode in twisty A-Roads. Good for me I was driving at night (deliberately) and when road is empty, you can carry the speed and car handles well, but doing the same during the day with other cars on the road is non starter, RC300h would be very dodgy if you want to overtake on blind British roads. So yeah - good car on handling if it is first dropped from the plane to get-up to speed. Nothing coming out of the engine.

That said RC200t, was particularly good for that ~50-90 pull... when it get going, the lag in response is horrendous, but the power is there... again - not a perfect solution, probably more cons than pros, and the car is even more compromised.

RC350... I both love to think about it and hate it at the same time.... oh why Lexus! Can't imagine they would have sold that much less of RC350s in UK, RC200t was sales failure anyway. At leas we would have decent enthusiast car to aspire to.

21 minutes ago, SeanR said:

One car that caught my eye was the Merc C300, 

Also, do like Merc C class coupe.

I do like E-Class Coupe, ideally E53 or 450, but even 300 is somewhat decent. It is 2L engine as well, also turbo, but somehow merc managed to adjust 7-Speed DTC to it feels "right". There is almost no lag (like on RC200t), also it is much better than C300 despite having identical engine/gearbox/power. I have seriously considered specifically coupe, but what I can't get over is column shifter... just hate that thing!

[SeanR]

Update.

Keeping the IS250, well, at least for another few or so years.