Where to go after the is250 ?

[SeanR]

Did mention this in another forum here but would like to hear from the is250 owners.

Getting itchy feet with regards the is250 and thinking of upgrading, but i want another Lexus. The one ive got now is reliable so im kind of on the fence, its just that its 14 years old.

Options interested in are something like.........

Lexus RC sport coupe (really like the style)

Is 2.5 300h Sport (same again, kind of)

ES sport (Though seems big and underpowered)

In fact, reading up online they all seem underpowered but that don't bother me.

Been looking at cars 2016 onwards. Its going to be one of those where you end up getting the best bang for your buck with regards age and mileage etc.

Seen is 300h for around £17k (2016)

Worth it or just stick with the is250 until it dies?, which it might not do for a long time.

Then again, with sport models it may all get to firm with the suspension etc.

Wont buy Audi etc, three guys at work all having reasonably big issues on cars less than seven years old.

 

[johnatg]

I was in the same boat 5 years ago (13 year old IS250, needed a bit of cosmetic work and I'd had it for 7+ years)

I bought a GS300h. Much lower Road tax (£25 now), much better fuel consumption (round about 40 mpg), feels like better acceleration (probably isn't but aided by 120 ish bhp electric motor from standstill), more refinement and more luxurious fittings generally.

You get used to the CVT transmission (in fact I prefer it now to conventional automatics) and you've got the paddles to play with if you want to be interactive.

It felt like a genuine upgrade vs just another car.

Don't regret it at all!

[Linas.P]

This is the question I tried to resolve myself 4 years ago... and honestly there is no satisfactory answer. Compromises, compromises and compromises. But short answer is - GS450h.

The issues is that IS250 is perfectly boring average car, it is not exciting in any way, not exceptional in any way, but also it has no weakness. Well equipped, decent looking, reliable, comfortable car and dare I say - handles well. So even thought is not fast car by any means, it sounds good, it handles well and overall it is pleasant to drive both at the limit and just cruising around. It is very hard to replace.

Now what complicated my matters - I wanted coupe, so the only way forward was RC. But RC in UK is totally compromised - 300h just sucks, perhaps okey for IS (as a 4 door entry executive car), but it is totally inadequate for sports car. So I went for RC200t, which is faster and more fun... and probably sounds better, but again - story is well known, RC200t also sucks, laggy, horrible fuel economy and just not the car that I could enjoy driving. So the only remaining car is RC-F which is huge compromise again, as it has "performance car tax" on it (basically expensive to maintain, insure, tax, fuel etc.). RC350 is a PERFECT car for me, but it is not sold in UK.

If 2 doors is not must for you, then it is actually not as bad. You could go GS250 - genuine upgrade over IS and cheaper than 3rd gen IS250, which is just ridiculous when you think about it. GS300h I am sorry, but no... John - please don't kind yourself, it is significantly slower than IS250 and it is nowhere near as refined (from engine compartment)... sure - being GS it is more luxurious and generally 4th generation GS is really under appreciated car generally, obviously even GS300h poses all positives of that generation, but engine is just not one of them. And finally - GS450h, that is the only genuine upgrade to IS250, faster, better handling, more luxurious, more refined, better built car. Sure GS450h is £200/year to tax, not £25, but it is well worth it, GS300h is very sluggish and slow car. Sorry if I push my opinion here, but from my perspective IS250 was already borderline slow, for me it was barely acceptable, 300h is noticeably slower so obviously that takes is from "acceptable" to not acceptable. And also GS is much heavier than IS, so that makes it completely unacceptable. However, if your perspective is that IS250 has plenty of power and it is not and issue for you, but you would appreciate better fuel economy (some people do), then sure - perhaps 300h is enough. But to say they are comparable is just disingenious. I can really see how one can reach such conclusion - if they never pressed accelerator on IS250 more than 25%, then I can see where 300h is maybe even faster and more responsive up-to that 25%, the low down torque from electric motor at those very low speeds is probably even superior... but above 25%... there is literally no comparison. Basically - it is possible to artificially create scenario where 300h becomes comparable to 250, but without restrictions there are no similarities at all. So if we talking about arbitrary limit of never pressing accelerator past 25%.. then sure... they are "same", but this is just disingenuous way of comparing them.

Also I suggest you try ES300h, back to back against any of GS... and you will see huge difference. ES is not Lexus, it is Toyota, it feels like Toyota... if you ever try Toyota Camry or Avalon of same year... they are identical in quality and feel, that is before I even start about it being wrong wheel drive.

Alternatively, import RC350 from Japan... that is ~£12,000-£20,000.

In conclusion:

If you want coupe, then get RC350 import, the cost difference is not huge, in fact some RC350s from Japan may even be cheaper, just not sure about condition (and also you can't inspect them as easily). I do not recommend neither RC300h, nor RC200t - one is just inherently bad sports car, so why buy sports car that is not sporty, other is just inherently bad engineering and design, mainly the engine is the problem... so not only it is bad sports car, it is also bad car in general.

If 2 doors is not a limiting factor, then GS450h is upgrade to IS250 in every aspect, there are no downsides going to GS450h (and I mean NONE). GS250 is still upgrade in all aspects, but extra weight means it is less exciting to drive. GS300h is more economical and cheaper to tax, but downgrade in many aspects relating to driving dynamics, it is much slower car.

Finally, there is no better car than IS250 as far as value for money (3rd gen GS300 arguably better), so regardless of what you choose it will be more expensive i.e. even if you go for GS450h it is what 300% more expensive (say £12k instead of £4k) and even if we say it is 20% better in every single aspect, it is still 300% the cost for 20% improvement. So any upgrade = less value for money. 

[H3XME]

12 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Alternatively, import RC350 from Japan... that is ~£12,000-£20,000.

Closer to £20k for a good one. And you wanna buy one as good as possible just because you can't see it beforehand.

I was in a similar boat, and I've just bought a 2014 Mark X 350s G's. 39,000 miles, 2 owners car. It's essentially an IS350 underneath with 4" longer wheelbase so more room in the back, and also 60kg lighter overall and the rear seats fold. There isn't much to choose from in the UK because the tree huggers wouldn't let Toyota/Lexus bring one of their best engines ever made, the 2GR.. well, that and people would think it's too big of an engine when in reality, Mark X with the 2GR does 40-41mpg on the motorway at 70mph and mid 20s around town. It's less than 10% worse on fuel than IS250. so again I agree, GS450h 2012+ would probably be the best if one doesn't want an imported car for whatever reason.

[Linas.P]

Yes - for a good one. The cheapest I have seen was just under £10k, with 170k miles (maybe 170k kilometres actually) on it. and it sort of looked tired. But I have seen several with ~100k kilometres and in decent shape for ~14k, so yeah I think that range of £12-20k is accurate... starting with questionable examples at the bottom and all the way to nearly perfect low mileage cars at the top. 

I would also note that there is more variation on JDM cars, what was standard in UK isn't standard in JDM, so one really needs to spend time checking each option to make sure the car has everything in it.

Also I don't want to start it again, but people defending 200t over 350 just amazes me. 2GR is much more powerful, much smoother engine which is ALSO more fuel efficient. RC200t vs RC350 is no brainer... how can anyone justify the existence of 200t... I don't understand.

When on the topic of 2GR... one can also get GS350 in Japan, including AWD model and they start at ~£6k for very terrible ones, perhaps closer to £12k for decent car. I would not recommend AWD for UK, and considering that we already have GS450h it is perhaps not that interesting to import GS350, but that is also an option. In such case I would say GS450h is probably slightly better than GS350, but JDM GS350 is probably slightly cheaper like for like, and outside of city driving it is very comparable in fuel economy, but more fun due to 8-speed auto (in RWD, AWD get's old style 6-Speed slush box). So they kind of trading blows for best upgrade.

[SeanR]

Thanks, a lot to take in there and will need look into the options you guys mention.

I want to avoid high mileage cars or anything that is overly expensive to insure.

Can live with £200 tax brackets but don't want to end up in the £500 range, did that with the Jag.

Will take a look at the gs450h and es300h, in the past ive had 2 x gs300 and only bought the 2nd one because the 1st was so good.

Whats the tax price on an import RC350 ?

[Linas.P]

2 minutes ago, SeanR said:

Whats the tax price on an import RC350 ?

All imports are £180. That is the beauty of it... even RC-F, IS-F etc. 

[H3XME]

3 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Yes - for a good one. The cheapest I have seen was just under £10k, with 170k miles (maybe 170k kilometres actually) on it. and it sort of looked tired. But I have seen several with ~100k kilometres and in decent shape for ~14k, so yeah I think that range of £12-20k is accurate... starting with questionable examples at the bottom and all the way to nearly perfect low mileage cars at the top. 

I would also note that there is more variation on JDM cars, what was standard in UK isn't standard in JDM, so one really needs to spend time checking each option to make sure the car has everything in it.

Also I don't want to start it again, but people defending 200t over 350 just amazes me. 2GR is much more powerful, much smoother engine which is ALSO more fuel efficient. RC200t vs RC350 is no brainer... how can anyone justify the existence of 200t... I don't understand. 

The cheapest one that's sold on the auctions in the last 2 months was a 2014 Red on red with 40,000 KM! Sold for £9k which works out to almost £16k registered in the UK.. + whatever they'll charge you for their commission on top. So yeah, high teens, almost £20k for something like this. 

You can't defend a 200t over 350 at all. There is not one thing that's better but you know, people will tell you different even if they're wrong.

[SeanR]

1 minute ago, Linas.P said:

All imports are £180. That is the beauty of it... even RC-F, IS-F etc. 

Wow, thats good news.

[H3XME]

Just now, Linas.P said:

All imports are £180. That is the beauty of it... even RC-F, IS-F etc. 

Incorrect. Imports are now taxed at £345. @SeanR

My Mark X IS £345 and as a guide, look at imports here: https://www.justjap-imports.co.uk/cars/lexus/is/is350-f-sport-gse31-3.5-v6/1164885/

[Linas.P]

Shaite... when this changed? 

Also regarding the prices - the ones I quoted were from https://carfromjapan.com, as I understand they quoted the price with delivery and tax in UK, but perhaps there are other duties that applies? 

For example this RC300h is ~£12,000 https://carfromjapan.com/cheap-used-lexus-rc-2014-for-sale-667c9fa7efaf3e4e4ccf06ab by the time it gets to Southampton... I always tried to understand how much more money you have to pay on top, but never really got to the bottom of it. As said previously, I have seen RC350 for $12,500, which works out around £9,500. Whenever there are extra duties on top, I don't know. 

[H3XME]

Just now, Linas.P said:

Shaite... when this changed? 

It's not been £180 for a while. Either late last year or early this year it went up from £325 to £345. 
It may be £180 for old cars over 30 years old, but even my 300ZX & JZX100 (both 90s imported cars) were £325

[Linas.P]

6 minutes ago, H3XME said:

It's not been £180 for a while. Either late last year or early this year it went up from £325 to £345. 
It may be £180 for old cars over 30 years old, but even my 300ZX & JZX100 (both 90s imported cars) were £325

I must have confused hat with something else then... probably the new tax on cars over £40,000 since 2018. Where you pay £180 all the time, but then additionally for first 5 years... meaning that LCs and RC-F registered before 2019 are now just £180. 

Also - look at this one https://carfromjapan.com/cheap-used-lexus-rc-2015-for-sale-668b6517a66131a34e87a6e4 RC350 F-Sport and it is grade 4... so in theory shouldn't be crashed. Sadly no pictures and minimal info, but it just goes to show some RC350 that goes under £10,000 + whatever taxes there are in UK I guess. But even if import duty is say 20%, then car should still be under £10,000 in UK!

[J Henderson]

Thought about this myself a couple of times, but I always come to the conclusion that "upgrading" to something newer isn't worthwhile, or very good VFM.

I paid less than £10K for my car when it was 5 years old with 36000 miles on it. Could I get a IS300h F-Sport of the same vintage & mileage for a similar amount? Absolutely no chance. I would be looking at having to spend at least double that amount.

Which would be fine if the newer model was a remarkable improvement, but for me it isn't.

I might be biased here but even in terms of looks, I don't feel my 2nd-Gen car looks proper old compared to modern cars. I think having the dark DRL headlights helps keep it looking contemporary. But, even an IS250 from 2005 still looks very smart IMO. Compare an Audi or something from 18/19 years ago, and it'll look very dated compared to the newest model, but I don't feel that's the case with the Lexus IS. But, like I said, I might just be biased. 🙂

The performance is clearly worse in the hybrid model, which I would honestly be fine with since it's not that bad, and it would be offset with better fuel economy and lower taxation.

But, I'm not totally convinced the 3rd-Gen is actually a better car. Anytime I've had one as a courtesy car, I never got the impression it was as well-made and refined as my 2nd-Gen. There are probably measurables that show on-paper that it is, but it felt no better to me.

Moving from 1st-gen IS200 to IS250 was a clear step-up in just about every way possible. The cars couldn't be more different, but 2nd-Gen to 3rd-Gen...not so much. To be fair to the 3rd-Gen model, the bar had been set very high, so improvement was hard to find.

The 2017+ facelift is a bit better, and that would be my preference if I were to get an IS300h.

[Linas.P]

14 minutes ago, J Henderson said:

But, even an IS250 from 2005 still looks very smart IMO. Compare an Audi or something from 18/19 years ago, and it'll look very dated compared to the newest model

But, I'm not totally convinced the 3rd-Gen is actually a better car. Anytime I've had one as a courtesy car, I never got the impression it was as well-made and refined as my 2nd-Gen. There are probably measurables that show on-paper that it is, but it felt no better to me.

Absolutely, I am amazed how many people do not realise they are are now nearly 20 years old. The understated and clean design just looks modern. I personally do not have anything against 3rd gen design, especially RC design, but IS250 design held remarkably well.

Re; 3rd gen IS - That is because it isn't better... I don't believe it is biased view either, I have been in many IS300h over the years and it does not feel built as well as IS250. It looks more modern inside, it has more modern tech (especially like phone integration), but quality wise 2nd generation was just superior. 

New GS - another story, GS is genuinely better, but new IS... I also think it is worse. 

Also I completely agree and as I said - upgrade inevitably means worse value for money. One has to pay double or even triple, to get marginal improvement. Is GS250 better, or 3rd gen IS250 better... sure if you compare them like for like, but they are also double or triple the price. 

[SeanR]

Must admit, they are using some cheap looking plastics in the ones ive seen, IS and RC

The ES looked better inside but was unaware it was a Camry lol

[SeanR]

Im kind of wanting to stay away from older hybrids, have this theory that i don't want a car older than say 6 years.

Want it to remain reliable for the duration I'm paying it off.

Seen some tempting Lexus dealership deals on PCP, 2016 cars for £250 a month but kind of concerned, would have take out a warranty but dont know how long they offer warranty for?, as in age of car.

Just doing the homework

[Linas.P]

5 minutes ago, SeanR said:

Must admit, they are using some cheap looking plastics in the ones ive seen, IS and RC

The ES looked better inside but was unaware it was a Camry lol

Technically an Avalon, but general material quality and feel comparable to Camry as well. Avalon is slighlty bigger car... really begs a question why Toyota decided to make both of them... as they are kind of identical.

GS450h 4th gen does not have any known issues as far as hybrid system is concerned, so unless you buy mega mile car with 200k miles it should be fine. The only more pricey issues I am aware of is the rear steering rack going and that is like £2000 from dealer, but can be solved with used parts for probably £500.

Yeas - IS/RC has loads of cheap plastic pieces, which is really surprising considering 2nd gen was so solidly made. Sure there were creaks in the dashboard, but when you close IS250 doors it feels like closing the vault. 3rd gen just doesn't feel the same what, it feels lighter and flimsier. 

[H3XME]

5 minutes ago, SeanR said:

Im kind of wanting to stay away from older hybrids, have this theory that i don't want a car older than say 6 years.

Want it to remain reliable for the duration I'm paying it off.

Seen some tempting Lexus dealership deals on PCP, 2016 cars for £250 a month but kind of concerned, would have take out a warranty but dont know how long they offer warranty for?, as in age of car.

Just doing the homework

It's a Toyota/Lexus, it will be fine. Plenty of Priuses around with 400k miles on the clock that are 15+ years old.

Also nothing wrong with a Camry, very good cars if you don't mind FWD.

Warranty is 10 years if you service it with them, so there's that. After that I'm sure you can extend it to 12 🙂

[johnatg]

12 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

 

GS450h 4th gen does not have any known issues as far as hybrid system is concerned, so unless you buy mega mile car with 200k miles it should be fine. The only more pricey issues I am aware of is the rear steering rack going and that is like £2000 from dealer, but can be solved with used parts for probably £500.

 

 

There's a thread on the GS forum ( Rear Steering Rack failure - rebuilt/second hand parts? GS 450h F-sport 2014) -  fairly recent - Paul (Stripester) was quoted £10000 (Ten Thousand) for a new rear rack and fitting. The thread is an interesting read - some parts are not available new and solutions have been tried (some work for some time)

But the conclusion must be - do not get a GS with rear steering! (I think it only applies to F-Sport pre-facelift - possibly was optional on others)

[Linas.P]

11 minutes ago, johnatg said:

There's a thread on the GS forum ( Rear Steering Rack failure - rebuilt/second hand parts? GS 450h F-sport 2014) -  fairly recent - Paul (Stripester) was quoted £10000 (Ten Thousand) for a new rear rack and fitting. The thread is an interesting read - some parts are not available new and solutions have been tried (some work for some time)

But the conclusion must be - do not get a GS with rear steering! (I think it only applies to F-Sport pre-facelift - possibly was optional on others)

It was only available as an option for F-Sport, never included standard with any model. That is also why (despite there being many wrecked GS), there are so few of these rear racks - they were rare option. So yes - if the car had that option (which by the way is very nice when it works), then it is potentially expensive failure. Not all F-Sports have it. I don't believe it was offered on GS300h F-Sport at all, not sure about GS250. It was certainly most common on 450h, but even then still rare. 

 

[ColinBarber]

17 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

It was only available as an option for F-Sport, never included standard with any model. That is also why (despite there being many wrecked GS), there are so few of these rear racks - they were rare option. So yes - if the car had that option (which by the way is very nice when it works), then it is potentially expensive failure. Not all F-Sports have it. I don't believe it was offered on GS300h F-Sport at all, not sure about GS250. It was certainly most common on 450h, but even then still rare. 

Rear wheel steering and variable ratio steering are standard on all series IV 450h F Sport models, both pre and post facelift. Not available on any other 450h grade and not available at all on any other engine combination.

Therefore if you are concerned about rear steering rack issues, avoid all GS 450h F Sport.

[H3XME]

1 minute ago, ColinBarber said:

Rear wheel steering and variable ratio steering is standard on all series IV 450h F Sport models, both pre and post facelift. Not available on any other 450h grade and not available at all on any other engine combination.

Therefore if you are concerned about rear steering rack issues, avoid all GS 450h F Sport.

But wouldn't that be covered under their warranty since they give 10 years?

[Linas.P]

1 minute ago, H3XME said:

But wouldn't that be covered under their warranty since they give 10 years?

That is unclear, but some earlier cars are no longer under warranty, certainly any cars over 100k are not under warranty. 

[ColinBarber]

Just now, H3XME said:

But wouldn't that be covered under their warranty since they give 10 years?

Yes, the concern would be after the warranty qualification period has past and the oldest examples are already over 10 years old now.