Is it worth buying a Lexus over a Toyota

[Chris UXe]

Hi All,

I saw this video yesterday which raises some interesting points, especially about current Lexus interior finishes and quality.

Hope you enjoy it.  

Regards

 

 

 

[ALAW]

Interesting Chris ive watched a few of Kris keifels vids knowledgeable on toyota i note he gives the UX :- 0points

[lexusbro]

Interesting video! I've always wondered about the Lexus vs Toyota debate. Gotta say, I'm a bit surprised about the interior quality issues they mentioned. Always thought Lexus was supposed to be the cream of the crop.

[GSLV6]

Depends which gen Lexus you buy.  Latest gen Toyotas are pretty decent tbh so for those it may not be worth the extra to a Lexus model.  4th gen Lexus models of RX/NX imho were the best interiors and I'd argue for the ride comfort and low wind noise (extra insulation), they're worth it.  Not so clear cut between latest Rav 4's and nx's

[steve2006]

Weirdly the Lexus brand didn’t exist in Japan until 2005 they were all Toyotas.

[Linas.P]

Look - I was saying it for over 5 years now... Look at my ES review... and people were angry with me. But that is the case - Lexus quality, especially materials and finishes are becoming worse, whereas Toyota quality is steadily improving. Prime examples are UX and ES, they are barely better than their Toyota counterparts. There are exceptions obviously... there are no Toyotas comparable to LS or LC (because they are true Lexus cars and not just rebadged Toyotas). RX and NX are so comprehensively upgraded that again they feel much different from say RAV4 (NX), even if RAV4 is actually excellent car as far as I am concerned, the NX really feels next level-up. Yet - you get into ES and it feels distinctly like economy car, exactly the same way how Camry/Avalon feels. They are not bad, they just don't feel premium enough to deserve the badge. 

[RadicalCoupe-Fuji]

Supposedly the Landcruiser is an exception, it seems to be generally considered as beingvbetter than the lexus version. New Landcruiser looks pretty good tbh & I'm not into 4x4s

[First_Lexus]

Interesting topic as, after three Lexus in a row, I’m downsizing into a Toyota CH-R in Oct/Nov.

I was surprised at how good Toyota interiors are now - lots of soft touch plastics everywhere, interesting designs, good tech. Comparing the LBX interior with the CH-R, the LBX has far higher perceived quality…but, it is based on the Yaris Cross, whereas I’m LED to believe the CH-R is on the Prius/Corolla platform. It has a larger 1.8 engine vs 1.5 three cylinder in the LBX too, and felt to me like a car from a size above.

However, despite all that the LBX is more expensive model for model, and significantly more expensive on a PCP.

The Lexus experience for me has been premium in every sense, and it’s fair to say the Toyota showroom/sales experience hasn’t been as good. It has been perfectly acceptable though, and for the price savings I’ve been happy to switch. 

Only time will tell if that’s been the right decision…

[GSLV6]

On 7/8/2024 at 8:47 PM, Linas.P said:

Look - I was saying it for over 5 years now... Look at my ES review... and people were angry with me. But that is the case - Lexus quality, especially materials and finishes are becoming worse, whereas Toyota quality is steadily improving. Prime examples are UX and ES, they are barely better than their Toyota counterparts. There are exceptions obviously... there are no Toyotas comparable to LS or LC (because they are true Lexus cars and not just rebadged Toyotas). RX and NX are so comprehensively upgraded that again they feel much different from say RAV4 (NX), even if RAV4 is actually excellent car as far as I am concerned, the NX really feels next level-up. Yet - you get into ES and it feels distinctly like economy car, exactly the same way how Camry/Avalon feels. They are not bad, they just don't feel premium enough to deserve the badge. 

I note you're not UK based in which case you may be getting cars where you are, from Toyota, that we aren't?   I recently sat in a new ES "Takumi" spec car and have to say it was fantastic!  Very high quality interior and way better than any current Toyota model I've come across, at least in UK spec.  The only downsides to the ES for me are 1.  It's FWD so was never a true replacement for the GS, and 2) it's so long!  Not the car you want for supermarket car park spaces here!  Would I buy one?  Absolutely, and it was a toss up between that new Takumi spec model and the RX4.  It was a very close call between the two but on reflection I prefer the driving position and hatchback load space of the RX, otherwise I'd have bought the ES.  It is, though, as with similar toyota models, subject to the same CANBUS vulnerability as the RX4s and used prices for ES cars don't seem too strong partially as a result of that.

I do agree with the youtube commentator though that Lexus quality has continued to deteriorate over the last decade.  Interiors with fake leather, the loss of so much craftsmanship especially on the late 2000's up to say mid 2010 models and generally a cheapening of the interiors which still look swish but don't stand up to scrutiny compared with some earlier models.  Paintwork isn't as good and nor is panel gap and I am not a fan of any of the latest generation models so for me, my current one will be my last Lexus.

[First_Lexus]

1 hour ago, GSLV6 said:

I do agree with the youtube commentator though that Lexus quality has continued to deteriorate over the last decade.  Interiors with fake leather, the loss of so much craftsmanship especially on the late 2000's up to say mid 2010 models and generally a cheapening of the interiors which still look swish but don't stand up to scrutiny compared with some earlier models

I have to say my previous NX300h and then my current RX450h have the highest quality interiors of any car I’ve ever owned, perhaps with the exception of (stop laughing at the back!) a 1979 Vanden Plan 1500 compete with genuine walnut, Wilton carpets and sumptuous leather. The rest of it was as dreadful as the Allegro on which it was based, but that interior was proper old fashioned craftsmanship.

Anyway, I’m of the opinion that the deterioration in quality is more of a case of things levelling out. Previously a Toyota / Datsun / Ford / Vauxhall would have had cheap interiors and poor finish at the bargain end of the range (think Chevette) with far better and plusher finishes at the top end (think Senator). That’s as it should be really - you get what you pay for. What I’ve seen in my car search, across brands and types (and positions in ranges) is that quality and finish is now pretty much the same across the piece. 

Add to that ‘sustainability’ - most manufacturers now boast (BOAST!) about synthetic leather, recycled tyres and bottles being used in plastics and seat trims etc. Manufacturers are also more ‘savvy’ about what matters to customers. Tech, and extras such as panoramic sunroofs and safety kit now seem to be more important than ‘quality’ as so many cars are sold on 3-4 year lease or PCP agreements. Even the VW Golf, once a paragon for quality now has plush plastics in the front, with far cheaper finishes in the rear (as does the Toyota CH-R I’ve ordered).

I do think Lexus quality is still exceptional, it’s just not as exceptional as once it was and the gap between it and ‘mass market’ cars has diminished. Cheaper brands have improved, while more expensive brands have declined imho and they’re now nowhere near as far apart as they once were. 

Based on my recent, and thorough, search Lexus are still the best. BMW, Mercedes and VAG disappointing but still good (just not as good as you’d expect) while Mazda and Toyota were better than I expected. Volvo were as close to Lexus as anybody as were Audi, both very impressive and ‘premium.’

[Linas.P]

12 hours ago, GSLV6 said:

I note you're not UK based in which case you may be getting cars where you are, from Toyota, that we aren't?   I recently sat in a new ES "Takumi" spec car and have to say it was fantastic!  Very high quality interior and way better than any current Toyota model I've come across, at least in UK spec.  The only downsides to the ES for me are 1.  It's FWD so was never a true replacement for the GS, and 2) it's so long!  Not the car you want for supermarket car park spaces here!  Would I buy one?  Absolutely, and it was a toss up between that new Takumi spec model and the RX4.  It was a very close call between the two but on reflection I prefer the driving position and hatchback load space of the RX, otherwise I'd have bought the ES.  It is, though, as with similar toyota models, subject to the same CANBUS vulnerability as the RX4s and used prices for ES cars don't seem too strong partially as a result of that.

I do agree with the youtube commentator though that Lexus quality has continued to deteriorate over the last decade.  Interiors with fake leather, the loss of so much craftsmanship especially on the late 2000's up to say mid 2010 models and generally a cheapening of the interiors which still look swish but don't stand up to scrutiny compared with some earlier models.  Paintwork isn't as good and nor is panel gap and I am not a fan of any of the latest generation models so for me, my current one will be my last Lexus.

It was 2020 F-Sport + Takumi that I specifically had as my demo and it was horrible, a lot of hard scratchy plastics specifically around the driver, also buttons were both hard and light (cheap feeling)... as it happened the week after I had ES for a spin I ended up with 2021 Camry as a rental. And it was identical, the only thing different was the badge. Camry is smaller than ES, especially the boot and the rear passenger legroom, but from driver seat they were identical, even drove the same (same powertrain).

I was told that ES quality was revised and improved around 2022, have not actually tried or I will ever bother. They launched it as replacement for GS, I said before the launch it will be step down, I got into one as soon as I could and just made sure that I am not talking shaite, checked everything that I consider relevant and concluded that I was right and it is just rebadged Toyota and not GS replacement. One could say I was biased (because I was, and we all are), and I specifically went there to find issues and I found them, would I have looked for positives I would have found positives. That said I think my review at the time was very balanced, I mentioned that seats were great quality (you can't get such seats in Toyota), real leather, tech wise it was step-up to both IS/GS (as realistically both models have aged at the time). Sure it has more room in the back, even more than in GS, but why do I care - I don't sit in the back. But specifically that little edge of quality that I would expect from Lexus was missing, it was good quality, modern TOYOTA, nothing more nothing less. Obviously, not to mention FWD which instantly eliminates it from my list, even thought I said ES300h feels totally fine to drive and new hybrid I even prefer over say IS300h or GS300h. Basically at that power level FWD isn't an issue and car felt surprisingly sharp and responsive on steering. Basically it is wrong wheel drive, but because engine is also wrong it doesn't really matter.

Strangely, I would argue ES quality is comparable of that in BMW and Audi (as sort of positive), but below MB. MB despite being unreliable and probably not lasting long really has premium feeling interiors (at least E-Class and up). BMW and Audi interiors looks nice, but they feel similar to ES, sort of "premium economy", Mazda also fits in same category. Then only more complicated part is that it is hard to judge German interiors, because there noticeable difference between trims and there are 100s of options. So it may be the case that I just got lower trim Audi/BMW and higher trim MB.

[dutchie01]

It will all be down to money i guess. Every company has to make some profit to survive and although i do not know the figures i am almost sure the early cars must have been loss making as the development costs were phenomenal. They did put Lexus on the map though as most reliable champion of NVH. Since the previous IS ( i had both the 250 and later the 300H) i feel there was more Toyota creeping in. Cost savings for sure. Not only Lexus but in all brands. Audi is mentioned. They are known for impeccable interiors well just sit in the electric Q4. It looks and feels cheaper than a golf or even Polo. Why? well they must have spend their money somewhere else. However, with Toyota moving up in cabin quality and styling and Lexus slowly gliding down what will be the position in the market for the brand??

[Tickedon]

My partner and I have both purchased new cars recently (me a Lexus NX, them a Toyota Yaris) and so I've test driven and sat in lots of cars, including lots of Toyota and Lexus models.

Short summary: The quality and feel of materials in a Lexus is consistently better than a Toyota.

A Toyota Yaris (inc Cross) interior is hard plastic heaven. It's not awful, and the key parts you'll touch most often normally have a bit of padding, but, entirely different to the far better LBX interior.

The C-HR interior looks great... but when I sat in it, it didn't feel anywhere near as good as it looked and I was quite disappointed (it possibly would have been an ideal car otherwise).

The UX is better (and I recently had one for nearly an entire week), but, now being considerably older than newer Lexus and Toyota models, is not quite as luxurious. The old 250h engine was also quite unrefined in my view - hopefully the 300h is better...

The clearest example to illustrate the difference, in my view, is the Lexus RZ and Toyota bz4x. The Lexus is plush and lovely, the bz4x is just a mass of dark hard plastic.

As to whether the price difference is worth it will depend on what your priorities are. I've said elsewhere the LBX is awfully expensive for what it is, especially compared to the top-trim Yaris (Excel / Premier Edition) models (which is funnily enough what we purchased!).

I haven't spent much time around the ES (was simply too long to be seriously considered) so can't really comment there, but having come from a reasonably plush Audi A4, I'm very very happy with the Lexus NX.

[First_Lexus]

26 minutes ago, Tickedon said:

The C-HR interior looks great... but when I sat in it, it didn't feel anywhere near as good as it looked and I was quite disappointed (it possibly would have been an ideal car otherwise).

It does go to show how different people perceive differently. Having had two NX and now an RX4 I was really impressed with the quality of the CH-R interior. As noted, it is not as good as the LBX but I found it superior to the UX which I’ve had as courtesy cars many times and have never been impressed. Then again, when I sat in the new NX350h at launch I felt the interior quality was a downgrade on the previous NX300h and there was a chasm between it and the RX! But that’s the thing about ‘perceived quality’ - everybody views these things differently and looks for different things / are impressed or unimpressed by different things.

LBX vs Yaris Cross is no comparison on the interior front - agree about the hard plastics - but then again is the LBX worth almost £10k more? Like you, I find the LBX ‘optimistically’ priced, especially at the moment with hardly any discounts on offer.

Having recently test driven Skoda, VW, Seat and Audi models the differences between interior quality on all of them are minimal. Yes, the Audi A3 has the poshest plastics, but the difference wouldn’t put me off the Skoda Scala for the price saving. What surprised me most about the A3/Golf/Scala/Leon comparison was how differently they all drive with the same platform/engine/gearbox. No doubt in my mind that the Golf was the best by some distance.

 

[Tickedon]

8 minutes ago, First_Lexus said:

Having recently test driven Skoda, VW, Seat and Audi models the differences between interior quality on all of them are minimal. Yes, the Audi A3 has the poshest plastics, but the difference wouldn’t put me off the Skoda Scala for the price saving. What surprised me most about the A3/Golf/Scala/Leon comparison was how differently they all drive with the same platform/engine/gearbox. No doubt in my mind that the Golf was the best by some distance.

 

I agree - particularly on the smaller and cheaper cars, there is much less differentiation between a Skoda / Seat / VW / Audi than there is between a Lexus and a Toyota in my view. There are bigger gaps when you move up into larger and more expensive VW group products - but even then, the latest Skoda Kodiaq and Superb are very competitive and certainly very acceptable and good interiors...

Toyota and Lexus seem to be trying to make too big a distinction between the two brands, or, are just trying to save a bit too much money on Toyota interiors...

[First_Lexus]

22 minutes ago, Tickedon said:

Toyota and Lexus seem to be trying to make too big a distinction between the two brands, or, are just trying to save a bit too much money on Toyota interiors...

Or perhaps they have to throw the kitchen sink at the Lexus interior in order to justify the prices! My RX450h in 2021 was about £55k list. The comparable new RX has had (in my view) a ridiculous price hike.

UX vs CH-R? With discounts included, I’ve been able to order a top (ish) spec CH-R Excel with all the bells and whistles for £34k. That’s where the UX range starts, and I was only able to get about £1k off the UX (despite known Canbus vulnerability) and to drive it felt like a much older car, which of course it is. To get a comparable spec UX I was over £40k which is crackers. Similar with the LBX, where a Takumi FWD just creeps below the £40k without options. 

Where the CH-R really shows it’s a Toyota rather than a Lexus is in the rear cabin, where some of the plastics used look and feel cheap. But in the front? I think it’s the equal of the UX, but not the LBX. The new UX based on the latest CH-R (I assume) will be interesting. If Lexus follow the RX price increase model then I think they’re being cynical.

The What Car? review gets it pretty much spot on, saying;

“The C-HR feels reasonably plush inside by small SUV standards. There's plenty of soft-touch plastic, along with suede-effect lining on the insides of the doors of GR Sport, Excel and Premiere Edition models.

In the main, the C-HR's interior feels well screwed together, although there are a few wobbly bits, including some plastic trim on the inside of the doors (and it’s a shame the rear doors are covered in very cheap-feeling plastic).

If you want to experience the plushest interior in the class with the best build quality, we'd point you in the direction of the Lexus LBX. In the PHEV world, the C-HR’s interior compares very well with competitors', although the MX-30 R-EV is even classier.“

 

All of that said, and as I’ve said elsewhere, having looked at a dozen different cars over the past month or so, from all sorts of brands, I think Lexus still make the nicest interiors - they’re just not imho as good as they used to be.