ULEZ in Scotland

[John N]

When I first checked if my 2000 registered LS430 was exempt from the London ULEZ charges the answer came back, 'Computer Says No'.

So I paid my £75 to Lexus for a Certificate of Conformity and sent it off with a copy of my V5C document. A couple of days later I got a message back from London Transport to say the car was now exempt from their ULEZ scheme. Now when I check on line, 'the Computer Says Yes'.

Scotland has now introduced 4 new ULEZ schemes, and when I check if the car is exempt from the Scottish schemes the answer comes back, 'Computer Says No'.

I've contacted the enquiries centre for the Scottish schemes, but I'm struggling to get an answer back as to how I can get the car recognised as exempt from their ULEZ.

Has anybody else had this problem? 

The Scottish ULEZ charges are £60 a day for a non compliant car, so this is serious!

 

[MLW]

Just put my 2002 430 into the Scottish ULEZ checker and is says YES all OK????

I reckon it is because the car was made with California in mind.

[MaximusPrime]

Hi John, their website is not the most helpful to be honest! 

But you could try narrowing this down to the area most relevant to you:

Aberdeen: aberdeencity.gov.uk/services/roads-transport-and-parking/low-emission-zone

Dundee: dundeecity.gov.uk/lez

Edinburgh: edinburgh.gov.uk/lez

Glasgow: glasgow.gov.uk/LEZ

Glasgow City Council LEZ Enquiry and Payment Line: 01412871072 (Option 1 for payment. Option 2 for all other enquiries).

[MaximusPrime]

2 minutes ago, MLW said:

Just put my 2002 430 into the Scottish ULEZ checker and is says YES all OK????

I reckon it is because the car was made with California in mind.

Just tried my 2005 LS430 and it say NO, how is this possible haha

[MLW]

Mind has just passed again at:

 

https://lowemissionzones.scot/vehicle-registration-checker

[John N]

54 minutes ago, MLW said:

Just put my 2002 430 into the Scottish ULEZ checker and is says YES all OK????

I reckon it is because the car was made with California in mind.

I know the later LS430 cars are shown as compliant.

I think the problem is that in 2000 when my car was registered, the DVLA were not recording the emissions figures for new cars. That is why my V5C registration document is blank in the Exhaust Emissions sections V1,V2 and V3.

Does the V5C document for your 2002 car have any data in the Exhaust Emissions section?

[John N]

59 minutes ago, MaximusPrime said:

Hi John, their website is not the most helpful to be honest! 

But you could try narrowing this down to the area most relevant to you:

Aberdeen: aberdeencity.gov.uk/services/roads-transport-and-parking/low-emission-zone

Dundee: dundeecity.gov.uk/lez

Edinburgh: edinburgh.gov.uk/lez

Glasgow: glasgow.gov.uk/LEZ

Glasgow City Council LEZ Enquiry and Payment Line: 01412871072 (Option 1 for payment. Option 2 for all other enquiries).

I tried the Glasgow number, but they just referred me back to the general enquires centre who I've already emailed.

Thanks anyway. 

[John N]

1 hour ago, MaximusPrime said:

Just tried my 2005 LS430 and it say NO, how is this possible haha

That's strange, is the car an import? Do the V5C documents for the cars show any Exhaust Emissions figures?

Try the London ULEZ checker and see what answer that gives.

I'll let you know if I manage to get mine sorted out for Scotland.

[heartburnron]

The staff in the Glasgow LEZ office are complete idiots!  I got a penalty charge for driving though Glasgow city centre in my 2005 LS 430 earlier this year.  I appealed it with them, sending my V5 certificate which shows the emissions for the 3 measured toxins.  I also sent a link to the RAC website that lists the parameters for each Euro standard. They informed me that as my V5 didn't explicitly state that it was a "Euro 4" engine, that they were rejecting my appeal and the case was closed.  I then appealed it with Scotland's General Regulatory Chamber, First-tier tribunals, Transport Appeals.  I requested a telephone hearing and The Adjudicator told me right at the start that he was granting my appeal.  I've attached his decision for you to have a look at.  The bottom line is that you don't need to be paying £75 for the certificate of conformity as it clearly states your emissions on the V5 document.  These LEZ offices same incapable of reading a V5 document!  I've since contacted the department responsible for updating their LEZ checker database, forwarding the tribunal decision and asking them to update their database.  Apparently that still isn't enough for them to just update it, although they have said they will contact the DVLA for further details.  There's no way their database has been compiled from DVLA provided data in my opinion; they've clearly just went 'petrol car before 2006 = not eligible'.

Here is the Adjudicator's blurb about the decision to grant my appeal extracted from the attached document:

11. The appeal is allowed for the following reasons: the Euro 4 emissions standards are, for a petrol vehicle: CO not more than 1.0g/Km; THC not more than 0.1g/Km; NOx not more than 0,08g/Km. The Appellant’s vehicle emissions are, as vouched by his V5C documentation: CO 0.19g; THC 0.05g; NOx 0.02g. All of these are significantly lower than the requisite levels for Euro 4 standards.

12. I accordingly prefer, on balance, the unchallenged position of the Appellant to that of the Council. I am at a loss to understand the position of the Council who seem unable to read and apply the information contained in the V5C document.

13. As I have allowed the appeal, Appellant is not required to pay the penalty charge. Any penalty charges for subsequent contraventions which have occurred may have been overcharged within the 90 day period of the LEZCN forming the subject matter of this appeal. Refunds may, therefore, need to be provided to the Appellant.

 

Decision_5464_LZ00037-2403.pdf

[John N]

2 hours ago, heartburnron said:

The staff in the Glasgow LEZ office are complete idiots!  I got a penalty charge for driving though Glasgow city centre in my 2005 LS 430 earlier this year.  I appealed it with them, sending my V5 certificate which shows the emissions for the 3 measured toxins.  I also sent a link to the RAC website that lists the parameters for each Euro standard. They informed me that as my V5 didn't explicitly state that it was a "Euro 4" engine, that they were rejecting my appeal and the case was closed.  I then appealed it with Scotland's General Regulatory Chamber, First-tier tribunals, Transport Appeals.  I requested a telephone hearing and The Adjudicator told me right at the start that he was granting my appeal.  I've attached his decision for you to have a look at.  The bottom line is that you don't need to be paying £75 for the certificate of conformity as it clearly states your emissions on the V5 document.  These LEZ offices same incapable of reading a V5 document!  I've since contacted the department responsible for updating their LEZ checker database, forwarding the tribunal decision and asking them to update their database.  Apparently that still isn't enough for them to just update it, although they have said they will contact the DVLA for further details.  There's no way their database has been compiled from DVLA provided data in my opinion; they've clearly just went 'petrol car before 2006 = not eligible'.

Here is the Adjudicator's blurb about the decision to grant my appeal extracted from the attached document:

11. The appeal is allowed for the following reasons: the Euro 4 emissions standards are, for a petrol vehicle: CO not more than 1.0g/Km; THC not more than 0.1g/Km; NOx not more than 0,08g/Km. The Appellant’s vehicle emissions are, as vouched by his V5C documentation: CO 0.19g; THC 0.05g; NOx 0.02g. All of these are significantly lower than the requisite levels for Euro 4 standards.

12. I accordingly prefer, on balance, the unchallenged position of the Appellant to that of the Council. I am at a loss to understand the position of the Council who seem unable to read and apply the information contained in the V5C document.

13. As I have allowed the appeal, Appellant is not required to pay the penalty charge. Any penalty charges for subsequent contraventions which have occurred may have been overcharged within the 90 day period of the LEZCN forming the subject matter of this appeal. Refunds may, therefore, need to be provided to the Appellant.

 

Decision_5464_LZ00037-2403.pdf 42.17 kB · 4 downloads  

That is Brilliant, and extremely  useful. Thank you.

My problem now is how do I get through to the id***s running the Scottish scheme. Because I have a further problem, which is that my car was registered in November 2000 and at that time the V5C documents did not show Exhaust Emissions values. That section of my document is blank! 

In order to get the car accepted as compliant by the London ULEZ I had to pay £75 to Lexus for a Certificate of Conformity which does not specifically state the car is EURO 4 compliant! But it does show the exhaust emissions which are well within the EURO 4 limits.

I have just sent the Scottish ULEZ help centre copies of my V5C and my Certificate of Conformity, but I don't hold out much hope after your experience.

Wish me luck.

 

 

 

[heartburnron]

 

1 hour ago, John N said:

That is Brilliant, and extremely  useful. Thank you.

My problem now is how do I get through to the id***s running the Scottish scheme. Because I have a further problem, which is that my car was registered in November 2000 and at that time the V5C documents did not show Exhaust Emissions values. That section of my document is blank! 

In order to get the car accepted as compliant by the London ULEZ I had to pay £75 to Lexus for a Certificate of Conformity which does not specifically state the car is EURO 4 compliant! But it does show the exhaust emissions which are well within the EURO 4 limits.

I have just sent the Scottish ULEZ help centre copies of my V5C and my Certificate of Conformity, but I don't hold out much hope after your experience.

Wish me luck.

 

 

 

I do you wish you the best of luck John.  I would have suggested showing them a screen shot of your car complying with the London ULEZ database too but these people don't seem to be able to be reasoned with!  It's fairly ridiculous that the only apparent way of getting them to update their database is to incur a fine, appeal it and then appeal again to a tribunal!

[John N]

11 minutes ago, heartburnron said:

 

I do you wish you the best of luck John.  I would have suggested showing them a screen shot of your car complying with the London ULEZ database too but these people don't seem to be able to be reasoned with!  It's fairly ridiculous that the only apparent way of getting them to update their database is to incur a fine, appeal it and then appeal again to a tribunal!

I already had the same idea.

ULEScompliance.pdfULEScompliance.pdfULEScompliance.pdf

 

[BigBoomer]

The only thing to do with mindless jobsworths is to escalate and keep on escalating until you find someone with that actually uses their brain for something other than keeping their ears apart.
The late 2000 and early 2001 LS430s all have the same problem that you have. They full comply with and even exceed the required emissions levels, but the documentation doesn't show it.

[John N]

16 hours ago, heartburnron said:

 

I do you wish you the best of luck John.  I would have suggested showing them a screen shot of your car complying with the London ULEZ database too but these people don't seem to be able to be reasoned with!  It's fairly ridiculous that the only apparent way of getting them to update their database is to incur a fine, appeal it and then appeal again to a tribunal!

Ray

I'm afraid I don't think you've won yet. The Scottish ULEZ checker still says your car is not compliant!

But you could always move to London, the London ULEZ checker says your car is compliant there!

[heartburnron]

3 hours ago, John N said:

Ray

I'm afraid I don't think you've won yet. The Scottish ULEZ checker still says your car is not compliant!

But you could always move to London, the London ULEZ checker says your car is compliant there!

Yeah, I only heard back from the office that updates the checker database at the beginning of this week.  They asked me for some details so that they can enquire with the DVLA.  Again, their apparent inability to use any sort of initiative was on show as all the details they requested were already included with my original email!  I'll let you know when I hear anything further from them.  I am relaxed about taking my car through the Scottish LEZ zones now though; I have the tribunal decision document to share now and if need be, I'll take it to a tribunal every time.  As silly as that is!

[John N]

1 hour ago, heartburnron said:

Yeah, I only heard back from the office that updates the checker database at the beginning of this week.  They asked me for some details so that they can enquire with the DVLA.  Again, their apparent inability to use any sort of initiative was on show as all the details they requested were already included with my original email!  I'll let you know when I hear anything further from them.  I am relaxed about taking my car through the Scottish LEZ zones now though; I have the tribunal decision document to share now and if need be, I'll take it to a tribunal every time.  As silly as that is!

Ray

I do not agree with a statement they make in their response:- That the DVLA have to update their data base before they can class your car as exempt.

When I applied for an exemption to the London ULEZ I had a response in a couple of days. They accepted my car was exempt and they changed their vehicle checker immediately. If the DVLA had changed their database my car would now be showing as exempt from the Scottish ULEZ, but it isn't.

I also got the same response as you. Telling me they had to refer it the DVLA and asking for the same information as you.

I don't think they have a clue!

[heartburnron]

54 minutes ago, John N said:

Ray

I do not agree with a statement they make in their response:- That the DVLA have to update their data base before they can class your car as exempt.

When I applied for an exemption to the London ULEZ I had a response in a couple of days. They accepted my car was exempt and they changed their vehicle checker immediately. If the DVLA had changed their database my car would now be showing as exempt from the Scottish ULEZ, but it isn't.

I also got the same response as you. Telling me they had to refer it the DVLA and asking for the same information as you.

I don't think they have a clue!

Exactly John.  I don't believe it either.  Not for a single second.  They've clearly seen the post 2006 for petrol cars general guidance and taken that as enshrined in stone.  No critical thinking, just double down regardless which, seems to be the way of the modern Western world doesn't it?   But then all the ULEZ schemes are complete bull for me; they made up the 'science' to justify the schemes so why stop there!?!  What a time to be alive eh? 

[heartburnron]

Victory at last!

You would like to think they would have the sense to do a blanket update for all LS430s, at least of the same year, but I very much doubt it...

[John N]

Ray - I've had a victory too.

I don't think they know what they are doing!

I've received an email from them today saying - 'We have escalated your case to the DVLA and will supply you with an update via email as soon as we receive a response from them.' That is the only response I've had from them since I sent them copies of my V5C and Certificate of Conformity on the 11th June.

But. I've just checked my number on their Vehicle Checker and it now says it is compliant !!!

[heartburnron]

1 hour ago, John N said:

Ray - I've had a victory too.

I don't think they know what they are doing!

I've received an email from them today saying - 'We have escalated your case to the DVLA and will supply you with an update via email as soon as we receive a response from them.' That is the only response I've had from them since I sent them copies of my V5C and Certificate of Conformity on the 11th June.

But. I've just checked my number on their Vehicle Checker and it now says it is compliant !!!

Happy days John!  I'd say I was celebrating with a few beers and whiskies, which I am, however that's somewhat misleading, as said alcohol consumption is a regular occurrence for me on a Thursday night! 🤪  (Friday is my day off)

But yeah, I'm not convinced they're contacting the DVLA at all.  I'm calling BS on that.  Pretty sure they just use that as a cover for their ineptitude and to buy time.

[John N]

Out of the blue a new V5C document for my car arrived in the post from the DVLA. Just in a brown envelope with no correspondence or explanation. 

When I compared it to the existing V5C they have added a value in the exhaust emissions section V3 of 0.02 for NOx. But there is still no value shown for the CO and THC emissions even though that information was in the information I sent!

Can anyone explain what is going on and why this didn't happen when the car was given exemption from the London ULRZ ?

 

[steve2006]

The woes of driving a JDM import in my case a 2004 model year Toyota Celsior means that it is not exempt in any ULEZ area and to make matters worse Toyota UK cannot issue a compliance report as it is Japanese specification.

Fortunately I never go to these places but if ( or more likely when) this system is introduced in Nottingham and Derby I will by then hopefully have my bus pass and the £3000.00 odd a year it costs me to run the car will be reallocated to Uber journeys.

 

 

[MLW]

When we went to France last year I guessed it at level 3, but I later found out it was level 4.

These sites are interesting. https://www.france.fr/en/article/crit-air-anti-pollution-vehicle-sticker/

and....

 

Where to find the Euro standard?

The EURO standard is indicated in field V.9 of the registration certificate. This field does not appear on certificates issued before March 15, 2009.

On the new registration certificates

 

[Malc1]

do you know if the permission to travel in those critical areas exempt cars over 30 years young  ......  the UK Equivalent of the 40 year rule .......  cars so old as not to require the MOT or equivalent !

Malc

[BigBoomer]

20 hours ago, MLW said:

When we went to France last year I guessed it at level 3, but I later found out it was level 4.

I have a Crit-Air Level 2 sticker on my LS430 because all LS430s were and are Euro4.

Sorry Malc, you cannot currently drive your pre-1997 registered cars in any of the French cities that operate the Crit-Air system.☹️ You'll have to take the Honda.
They are working on issuing a Classic car sticker to 30+ year old cars but it's not been done yet, no doubt delayed because of their election.