Build quality v reliability

[BonzoSPB]

I friend came around yesterday to show me his new BMW X3. It's a car I considered before purchasing my NX450+ so was interested to see how it compared.

He's got the XDrive 30E which compares reasonably well performance and pricewise to my NX450+.

What hit me instantly was the feeling that it was much better in terms of build quality. Everything felt really solid compared to certain areas of the NX450+ and it felt noticeably more refined on the road. The infotainment system, which I've known from previous BMWs, remains as good as ever.

But, build quality doesn't always point to improved reliability which is the main reason I went for the NX450+. I'm hoping that it provides potentially 7+ years of reliable motoring and that the cost of ownership compared to the BMW would be cheaper over that period. The only fly in that ointment is that the BMW servicing plan means that he may go up to 18 months without a service whereas Lexus drag me into the garage every 12 months no matter what. The Lexus warranty is also a positive but I've always been of the opinion that the Lexus service model effectively makes you pay for the warranty. Resale values are an unknown so would a 7 year old NX450+ retain more of it's purchase price than a XDrive 30E?

What other cars did you guys consider when going for the NX450+?

[Scotlex]

I did also look at an X3 and very nearly bought one when my Lexus continually got delayed ( by 6 months).

The 3 year warranty on most German cars annoys me. German reliability etc. etc. yet they will only give 3 years. 

It the Lexus is totally reliable with no major issues then we have possibly made the correct decision. Only time will tell 😀

[Terry1956]

I was always a bmw driver, until I purchased the newer model 5 series touring in 2023. At first it was great to get into the car and have the power that a bmw can deliver. I was delighted at the HUD display and the great LED headlights that made night driving so easy. However after 4 months, the shin had gone and I was left with a car that had so much plastic instead of metal in the engine bay I wondered how it never all just melted. The rear hatch would open on its own when ever it felt like it. And cost cutting could be seen all over the place. The car was a showroom queen, but built like the old bmw,s that made the name. Never. I sold it ASAP. German cars are just not the same quality, 

[Scotlex]

Unfortunately I think that most cars nowadays are not built to last.

[Dealkent]

19 hours ago, Terry1956 said:

I was always a bmw driver, until I purchased the newer model 5 series touring in 2023. At first it was great to get into the car and have the power that a bmw can deliver. I was delighted at the HUD display and the great led headlights that made night driving so easy. However after 4 months, the shin had gone and I was left with a car that had so much plastic instead of metal in the engine bay I wondered how it never all just melted. The rear hatch would open on its own when ever it felt like it. And cost cutting could be seen all over the place. The car was a showroom queen, but built like the old bmw,s that made the name. Never. I sold it ASAP. German cars are just not the same quality, 

Totally agree regarding reliability of German cars , it’s now a myth that they are reliable. I am constantly meeting people who have  new BMW, Mercedes ! Audi VW and had all sorts of problems. 

[DavidCM]

2 years ago,I was given a BMW Convertible..I can't remember if it was a 440 or 430 diesel as a courtesy car whilst mine was in for body repair.Apart from being very fast and a convertible for 6 weeks in the summer -the fit and finish was dreadful..cheap finish and rattles everywhere.I was glad to get my RC back and return the BMW.

I had four 3series BMs as company cars all through the 1980s and the were better finished than the 2021 loan car.

 

[Tom999]

I wouldn't touch a German car any more. Having said that my Lexus IS corroding underneath, far worse than a German car.

[Richard77]

I’ve currently got a bmw x3. My boot also opens by itself but I think is caused by the key fob being too sensitive in my pocket. I’ve owned Audis and VWs but mainly BMWs and have to say I’ve found BMWs to be pretty reliable. My Audi a4 was really bad, constantly going wrong and also needing a lot of routine maintenance. My x3 has been pretty bullet proof but I do agree quality isn’t what it was hence why I plan to trade it for a NX in a few months. What annoys me if my x3 wound have been over £50k new and is 4 years old yet doesn’t have adaptive cruise or lumbar support. Only a software update got apple car play to activate. Really frustrating when you get this in a super mini class of car from cheaper manufacturers.

[RONNIE W HODGEKINSON]

On 8/13/2024 at 10:25 PM, Scotlex said:

Unfortunately I think that most cars nowadays are not built to last.

The Lexus Cars are Built To Last Alister..IMHO

[Scotlex]

3 hours ago, RONNIE W HODGEKINSON said:

The Lexus Cars are Built To Last Alister..IMHO

I hope you are right. 😀

It certainly appears to be well built and no problems so far.

[wharfhouse]

On 8/14/2024 at 4:33 PM, DavidCM said:

2 years ago,I was given a BMW Convertible..I can't remember if it was a 440 or 430 diesel as a courtesy car whilst mine was in for body repair.Apart from being very fast and a convertible for 6 weeks in the summer -the fit and finish was dreadful..cheap finish and rattles everywhere.I was glad to get my RC back and return the BMW.

I had four 3series BMs as company cars all through the 1980s and the were better finished than the 2021 loan car.

 

IMHO the pinnacle for BMW was in the late 1990s - I had an E39 528i which was a superb car in which I covered 200k miles in 10 years which included many journeys around Europe at high speed with very few issues. I had BMWs before the E39 and other BMWs after it (faster then the 528i) but none lived up to the E39. That's when I decided I needed a change and went for the IS 300h in which I've covered 110k miles of it's total 150k miles and I put up alongside the E39 as one of the best cars I've ever owned. 

[JamesIS220]

My best cars for reliability and cost have been.

1986 Volvo 740 estate 2.3. Bought in 2002 for £425. Kept for 5 years.

Then a new Corolla 1.4 D4D hatch, New in France in 2007

Traded in the LHD corolla and bought a 1989 Volvo 240 GLT auto estate with 159,000 miles for £350 in 2009. 8 years as my only car and sold in late 2018 with 234,000 miles after 10 years use. Wanted something with ABS and AC and so bought a 1996 Volvo 940 SE lpt auto estate in 2016 for £250. Still have this.

240 and 940 have been my best Volvo's. Have a 2015 Toyota Auris Hybrid too. Like the road tax and MOT but not bonded with it like the Volvo's. Like the reliability of Toyota and running costs, hence choosing it.

Wish the door window switches were illuminated like my 940. When you open the 940 drivers door it unlocks all the doors with the central locking. Auris have to press the unlock button to open the other doors.

The biggest good thing about newer cars is crash safety. If I was to be involved in an accident rather it in the Auris. Volvo 940 is a old design that's updated from 1983 when the 740 came out. Good in it's day.

 

[STE041]

I had a 4 series BMW as a courtesy car - wend over a speed hump and the centre bottom dash fell into the passenger footwell

Ive also had an Audi A6 as a loaner - it had 10k miles on it and rattled like a babies toy.

Years ago I had a Merc - needed 4 coil packs, nearly £3k

I wouldn’t touch German brands since having had a Lexus IS, 2 x ES and now on and NX350h

[Malc1]

Not sure what to say here ……… legendary reliability and performance 👍 ……. with proper servicing and known preventative maintenance over many moons and miles of smiles ……. and not seen a Main Dealer for decades too 

Ls400s  👍😄👍

Ls400s are quite good by comparison to any cars I’ve ever had and driven and there’s been a few upmarket marques too in my driving life 

Malc 

[Darklight]

I've just came from BMW, had a e46 Estate then two X3's.  The e46 was unreliable with many small issues (central locking, window mechanisms etc) but felt solid.  The X3 (e83) was very reliable for 8 years requiring only routine maintenance but had a reputation for being pretty suicidal after 80k.  I found this out with the "three lights of death" - ABS/Traction Control/handbrake lights coming on together and being underivable with a mind of its own. The Transfer box BMW uses on e83's are made up of cogs made of plastic!  Fine for 80K or so, then an abrupt end. 

I then went for an F25 X3, again, solid car and required little other than routine maintenance over the six years or so I had it but, again, achilles heal surfaced in the use of plastic parts, this time in the steering rack and motor - a £2700+labour fix.

I had planned on running the last X3 for as long as I could, it had everything I wanted in a car and the engine sweet as a nut at 82K. However, being warned of the use of plastic components in the engine as timing chain guides susceptible to dislodging (a "known issue" for many years) put me off any further purchases from them and I moved over to Lexus.  Let's see what the next few years brings, hopefully the warranty on my used NX is good!

[Mr Naughty]

I am on my 2nd NX350h and must confess that I find the build quality to be pretty poor all round.  My car had 800 miles on it when I bought it and there's a litany of squeaks, rattles and noises that have emerged ever since.  One in particular appears to come from the driver's side dash but the dealers refuse to hear it....if you know what I mean.

I previously owned BMWs and an Audi Q5 that had far superior build quality than the NX.  Not sure I will buy another one though if a dealer is willing to rectify the noises I may think again.

[Gary H]

On 8/19/2024 at 10:06 PM, Mr Naughty said:

I am on my 2nd NX350h and must confess that I find the build quality to be pretty poor all round.  My car had 800 miles on it when I bought it and there's a litany of squeaks, rattles and noises that have emerged ever since.  One in particular appears to come from the driver's side dash but the dealers refuse to hear it....if you know what I mean.

I previously owned BMWs and an Audi Q5 that had far superior build quality than the NX.  Not sure I will buy another one though if a dealer is willing to rectify the noises I may think again.

I like my NX350h but I can relate to a few things you've said there. I would probably describe the build quality as 'sufficient' rather than towards the top end, if that makes sense. 

I haven't got any rattles with mine fortunately, but what I will say which makes me question it's longevity is that over some bumps, I notice my door mirror can wobble/vibrate in it's housing slightly. Not the passenger one, just the driver's. Also, the rear passenger doors don't shut with a reassuring thud. They sound quite 'lightweight' for what they are. Also, another very minor issue I have is that from new, the steering wheel is been ever so slightly 'off' to the left. 

It's going in for it's first service at the end of next week and I'm not mentioning the mirror or steering wheel. Why is that? I had such an unbelievably poor sales experience in getting the car (well documented on here) that I don't particularly want to deal with them again or want it in their hands for longer than necessary. I had a UX previously and they were alright on that side to be fair to them. It's the sales side which were poor, to put it as diplomatically as possible. 

Like yourself, I've previously owned an Audi Q5. A '66' plate special edition S-Line and one of the very last of the original models - so it was fully loaded. What a machine that was. Superb. I loved that car. Of course the NX350h I have now is better specced given the passage of time, but it doesn't really have a 'character' like the Q5 did. It feels more 'white goods' than something with a soul. 

As to whether I'd buy another Lexus is up for debate. I'll openly admit I'm still leaning towards "no" and that's after coming up for almost a year of 'recovery' since my frustrating buying experience after I said "never again" at the time. 

[Mr Naughty]

3 hours ago, Gary H said:

I like my NX350h but I can relate to a few things you've said there. I would probably describe the build quality as 'sufficient' rather than towards the top end, if that makes sense. 

I haven't got any rattles with mine fortunately, but what I will say which makes me question it's longevity is that over some bumps, I notice my door mirror can wobble/vibrate in it's housing slightly. Not the passenger one, just the driver's. Also, the rear passenger doors don't shut with a reassuring thud. They sound quite 'lightweight' for what they are. Also, another very minor issue I have is that from new, the steering wheel is been ever so slightly 'off' to the left. 

It's going in for it's first service at the end of next week and I'm not mentioning the mirror or steering wheel. Why is that? I had such an unbelievably poor sales experience in getting the car (well documented on here) that I don't particularly want to deal with them again or want it in their hands for longer than necessary. I had a UX previously and they were alright on that side to be fair to them. It's the sales side which were poor, to put it as diplomatically as possible. 

Like yourself, I've previously owned an Audi Q5. A '66' plate special edition S-Line and one of the very last of the original models - so it was fully loaded. What a machine that was. Superb. I loved that car. Of course the NX350h I have now is better specced given the passage of time, but it doesn't really have a 'character' like the Q5 did. It feels more 'white goods' than something with a soul. 

As to whether I'd buy another Lexus is up for debate. I'll openly admit I'm still leaning towards "no" and that's after coming up for almost a year of 'recovery' since my frustrating buying experience after I said "never again" at the time. 

Fully agree with all of that and share similar sentiments.  Since my post above my car has developed a further rattle which is infuriating - it's booked in for its service a few weeks from now and I have asked them to identify and resolve all of them, otherwise I will be escalating it.  Simply not acceptable for a car of this supposed standard.  I had a RAV4 some years ago and that had better build quality, along with Hondas that I have also owned.

In the event that Lexus can't resolve I'll probably go back to Honda.

[Ken R]

Sorry to learn of your build quality issues. Now on my third Lexus since 2018 (NX300h, NX450h+, RX450h+) and honestly have had no quality problems with rattles, squeaks, vibrations etc. 

[Terry1956]

Don’t buy a Honda civic hybrid. I made that mistake in 2023. I wanted shot of German made cars, most of which are made in America or the far east. And liked the look of the Honda civic. I purchased an ex demo with just over 300 miles on the clock. It was a very good car and I put 13000 miles on in less then 8 months which was all social including a European tour. Then things went downhill fast. Driving along the m5 the steering when rock hard, then soft, then hard again. This all at 75mph. I had to stop. At first I was sure a tire was playing up, but could see nothing. Not being far from home. I  got off the motorway and slowly drove home. The next day and a few days after, no problem. Then once again the steering started to play up. Same speed and after 45 minutes of driving. This time I had it taken into my local Honda dealership. After a few days they came back with nothing wrong with the car. I found that in America Honda had a large number of legal actions taken out against them on this steering issue. I contacted Honda U.K. who did not want to know so I got shot of the car. It’s been on sale at a Honda dealership for around 7 months now and the price they are asking is less then the px price I got. So no to Honda. 

[Pm4]

I had a Q5 for 9 years (2013 to 2022) and an X5 for 10 years before that, I had no technical issues. When I  wanted to replace the Q5 I went to Audi Guildford to look at another Q5 but it only came with black interior (which I don't like) so I asked what happens if you don't like black? The answer was, you don't have to buy it! So I didn't. I had a look at Mercedes and they were similarly arrogant, walked further on to Lexus and was very refreshing, polite, helpful and a choice of colours! The main difference I found in my 450h is so much quieter and much more comfortable seats, very happy with the quality and performance, except the troublesome software!

I  would find it very difficult to go back to anything else.

[Mr Naughty]

5 hours ago, Terry1956 said:

Don’t buy a Honda civic hybrid. I made that mistake in 2023. I wanted shot of German made cars, most of which are made in America or the far east. And liked the look of the Honda civic. I purchased an ex demo with just over 300 miles on the clock. It was a very good car and I put 13000 miles on in less then 8 months which was all social including a European tour. Then things went downhill fast. Driving along the m5 the steering when rock hard, then soft, then hard again. This all at 75mph. I had to stop. At first I was sure a tire was playing up, but could see nothing. Not being far from home. I  got off the motorway and slowly drove home. The next day and a few days after, no problem. Then once again the steering started to play up. Same speed and after 45 minutes of driving. This time I had it taken into my local Honda dealership. After a few days they came back with nothing wrong with the car. I found that in America Honda had a large number of legal actions taken out against them on this steering issue. I contacted Honda U.K. who did not want to know so I got shot of the car. It’s been on sale at a Honda dealership for around 7 months now and the price they are asking is less then the px price I got. So no to Honda. 

A Civic is definitely on my list IF, and it's a massive if, I decide to change.  Having driven one I was quite impressed with it and I have previously owned 3 Hondas without a single issue.  That said, your story is a salutory tale so I'll do some more research on that issue.

[Terry1956]

Just to add to the sad sorry of my Honda ownership, when I wanted to get shot of it, I had one hell of a job. Ok we buy any car made a plain silly offer, but so many dealers just would not offer anything on a P/X. Never before have I faced a problem like that. The thing is that to correct the fault the car would have needed a whole new steering system at over £4000. So as the problem was a design fault, you are just buying another 13,000 miles. That makes for one very expensive car.

[Malc1]

On another Honda perspective ……. had our 2006 Honda Legend ( very rare car it seems )  for 8 years and now on 150k miles ……. We’ve done about 45k of that …… stopped Main Dealer servicing when I bought it from my bro-in-law ……. ridiculous hourly rate, just as Lexus ! 

Brilliant Brilliant 3.5ltr  Honda for sure …… I just failed to do the gearbox oil cooler radiator preventative maintenance at 149k …….. as we have to do with the LS430/460/600 and possibly others each 100k miles or so …….. thankfully just needed a new radiator 👌

We’d have another Honda for sure but clearly NEVER a Civic after reading all this debacle 

She indoors so prefers driving the Honda ……. my Ls400s are the best cars ever …….. of course 👏😂🤣

Malc 

[Terry1956]

That was before manufactures made cars to last more than three years. Todays cars have some massive problems, some down to greed like not using pure copper for the wiring but an alloy that breaks down causing all sorts of issues. The use of plastics in engine components which are bound to fail, like plastic water pump bodies etc. 

however today’s manufacturers also need to keep to the madness of going green, which is a motoring dead end for sure.

yesterdays cars rusted away, todays cars just become uneconomical to repair, take a look at the electric Volkswagens, replacement Battery costs more then the car new. So insurance companies just scrap them over paying for repairs. 
I liked the Honda civic, but maybe Honda in their drive towards driverless cars pushed the technology to far resulting in a dangerous car.