First Lexus, looking to buy an IS250 2007-2010

[Linas.P]

29 minutes ago, H3XME said:

NCB still means the same thing. You generally get 10% discount for every year and it's capped at 6-7 for most insurers. So 6 NCB is 60% discount of your base quote.

You will not see this, but the underwriter's base quote is say £2000. They will then apply your 6 NCB's (60% discount). Your quote is now looking like £800 thanks to those NCBs.

If you get into an accident, but your NCBs are protected (like mine for extra £20). Your base quote next year may be £4000 because of the accident.. but you still have your NCBs so they can apply that 60% discount to that figure, so now you're paying £1600.. Now imagine what it would be like if your base quote is already high due to postcode, vehicle etc and you don't have protected no claim bonuses that you just lost in an accident.. You're gonna be quoted 4k 🫠

Someone I know rear ended a car in a crawling traffic, minimal damage to the bumper. It was deemed as 50/50 fault. They had to go through insurance because the person who got rear ended wanted to go through the insurance. The guy I know lost 2 years of his NCB and that's it. So you don't always lose all of them.

Just not the case - it use to mean -5% per year, up-to 25%. But in practice sometimes it seems to works, sometimes it does nothing... this is really like anything else on insurance... random price generator. I can guarantee you - I can go to my last quote now, remove 8 years of NCD and the quote would barely change. (PS actually did it just now - see below)

8 years NCD:

0 years NCD (no NCD, and answer whenever I have any on other cars, company etc. also simply "no")

Obviously, NCD makes policy cheaper, but not by much... 8 years NCD only made a difference of ~7%. Interestingly Admiral was £724 before, so it got rid of "skippy" (perhaps they have policy not to insure people with less than 2 years NCD), but made Admiral quote cheaper and generally speaking I probably would have gone for Admiral anyway as they have better conditions anyway. Where is the logic - there is none!

Also you don't need NCD protection for non-fault claims (although that is debatable). How many years NCB you lose depends on the contract... I remember when I had esure and they had table for it, like if you have 5 years and have one accident then they take 1 year away + you don't earn extra years, if you have two accidents than they take away 3 years etc. Other insurance provider remove everything. Also I remember with esure, if you had protected NCD, then for first accident nothing, but for second they still take away 2 years. It is all down to contract and small print. 

[J Henderson]

Those excess figures.... 😮

[Linas.P]

1 hour ago, J Henderson said:

Those excess figures.... 😮

I need to check, but I don't believe that is how much excess is on my policy. I think it may be £125 total or maybe £250. Something like that, maybe 250 voluntary and 125 mandatory on top. Reducing excess actually made my price lower (where is logic in that?!).

That said I never cared about excess, as discussed above - regardless of excess it is never worthy to claim on your policy. Unless you were obviously at fault for the accident, but in that case I am sure one has way bigger problems to deal with than £1,000 excess.

For quote a long time my excess was something like £3000+£2000, certainly that was the case when I first insured IS250 for aforementioned £2600. Basically, you just accept the fact that you never getting anything from your insurance and just hope that it is not your fault and you can claim it from TP... or even more likely just fix the car yourself. 

[DnG]

6 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Just not the case - it use to mean -5% per year, up-to 25%. But in practice sometimes it seems to works, sometimes it does nothing... this is really like anything else on insurance... random price generator. I can guarantee you - I can go to my last quote now, remove 8 years of NCD and the quote would barely change. (PS actually did it just now - see below)

8 years NCD:

0 years NCD (no NCD, and answer whenever I have any on other cars, company etc. also simply "no")

Obviously, NCD makes policy cheaper, but not by much... 8 years NCD only made a difference of ~7%. Interestingly Admiral was £724 before, so it got rid of "skippy" (perhaps they have policy not to insure people with less than 2 years NCD), but made Admiral quote cheaper and generally speaking I probably would have gone for Admiral anyway as they have better conditions anyway. Where is the logic - there is none!

Also you don't need NCD protection for non-fault claims (although that is debatable). How many years NCB you lose depends on the contract... I remember when I had esure and they had table for it, like if you have 5 years and have one accident then they take 1 year away + you don't earn extra years, if you have two accidents than they take away 3 years etc. Other insurance provider remove everything. Also I remember with esure, if you had protected NCD, then for first accident nothing, but for second they still take away 2 years. It is all down to contract and small print. 

Omg I'm so jealous of those prices, I would have posted pictures of the car by now if I had those insurance prices Also don't know how you guys pay so little to protect NCD, I'd have to pay over £100 a year for that

[Linas.P]

Same as everything else - sometimes you put "protect NCD" and the prices actually drop... sometimes it is indeed like £50 or £100 extra.

Also as you can see from example above - when "price rise" it is not necessarily that same provider charges you more or less, most often is because you get more or less providers. How an why Admiral charges me £16 less on 0 NCD compared to 8 years NCD is anyone's guess, but skippy completely skipped me on 0 NCD. So my price actually dropped, but as result I get more options and my cheapest option is now more.

So it could be the case that say Admiral only offers you a quote if you choose to protect NCD (just because their bullshaite algorithm says so), so the NCD protection costs you £100, but Admiral base price was £550, whereas let's say eSure was £695. So it does cost you £100, but as result you unlock insurance option that was actually cheaper and you could not see before. 

It is literally random number generator as far as I am concerned, I doubt even insurance companies themselves knows or could explain why it works the way it does. 

[H3XME]

14 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Just not the case - it use to mean -5% per year, up-to 25%. But in practice sometimes it seems to works, sometimes it does nothing... this is really like anything else on insurance... random price generator. I can guarantee you - I can go to my last quote now, remove 8 years of NCD and the quote would barely change. (PS actually did it just now - see below)

8 years NCD:

0 years NCD (no NCD, and answer whenever I have any on other cars, company etc. also simply "no")

Obviously, NCD makes policy cheaper, but not by much... 8 years NCD only made a difference of ~7%. Interestingly Admiral was £724 before, so it got rid of "skippy" (perhaps they have policy not to insure people with less than 2 years NCD), but made Admiral quote cheaper and generally speaking I probably would have gone for Admiral anyway as they have better conditions anyway. Where is the logic - there is none!

Also you don't need NCD protection for non-fault claims (although that is debatable). How many years NCB you lose depends on the contract... I remember when I had esure and they had table for it, like if you have 5 years and have one accident then they take 1 year away + you don't earn extra years, if you have two accidents than they take away 3 years etc. Other insurance provider remove everything. Also I remember with esure, if you had protected NCD, then for first accident nothing, but for second they still take away 2 years. It is all down to contract and small print. 

I’ll say it again, online quotes are pure bullsh!t for me, but look at this. 8NCB vs 0NCB

Almost ~60% increase.. could be due to my age. The older you get the less NCBs potentially mean. I don’t know. We could talk about this for weeks and get nowhere. It’s a RNG scam. 
 

the fact that NCBs give you 10% discount per 1 until 6-7 is what my insurance told me, so it’s not a guess. However it may not always apply. 

[Linas.P]

7 hours ago, H3XME said:

I’ll say it again, online quotes are pure bullsh!t for me, but look at this. 8NCB vs 0NCB

Almost ~60% increase.. could be due to my age. The older you get the less NCBs potentially mean. I don’t know. We could talk about this for weeks and get nowhere. It’s a RNG scam. 
 

the fact that NCBs give you 10% discount per 1 until 6-7 is what my insurance told me, so it’s not a guess. However it may not always apply. 

That is what I said - it is rng generator... us trying to understand and explain it is equivalent to looking at ants nest and trying to explain what individual ant is doing (arguably it probably would be easier).

Sometimes NCD works, sometimes it doesn't, as per example above - Admiral quote actually dropped. Also compare the market is owned by admiral group if I am not mistaken... so who knows how transparent it is.

The only thing I care about is to get absolutelly cheapest cover possible, compare the market seems to provide that... and that is all, because I know that I will never benefit from it, it is one way game.

[zoricib]

Would also recommend trying other comparison websites. Compare the market used to be the cheapest for me but in the past 2 years GoCompare was 150-200 cheaper. 

As to why some things don't make sense, I think it's very strongly statistics based - if people with 2k excess had more crashes compared to those with 200, then they potentially see it as a risk. 

In some countries they insure a car against a person but then anyone can drive the car...isn't that a dream!

[DnG]

Coming back with another update... a sad one, as usual

This Wednesday I saw a 2009 SE-L, black with cream interior for sale in Luton for £2.999. Got a friend to come with me on Sunday, found coach tickets (luckily didn't buy them) and called to ask about the car. It was posted that day, didn't even have proper pictures or description yet. Let the guy know I'll come Sunday to see it (and of course pick it up, but didn't tell him that on the phone obviously). I didn't leave a deposit since there's a high chance I won't see it back if there's something wrong with the car. The guy on the phone was in a rush, didn't know how to hang up faster, so I just left it at that. I looked at the car daily, at least 3 times to chek if it's still available but yesterday, after checking it for like 5 times, I tried to show my girlfriend the car one last time before buying the coach tickets and getting ready, but the ad was gone... This morning the first thing I did was call the guy again and he just said "yeah it sold" and he hanged up... I have no leave days left at work and my mate was also at work until Sunday so couldn't go see it any faster.

Sadly... still looking for my IS250...

[H3XME]

On 8/24/2024 at 2:34 PM, DnG said:

Coming back with another update... a sad one, as usual

This Wednesday I saw a 2009 SE-L, black with cream interior for sale in Luton for £2.999. Got a friend to come with me on Sunday, found coach tickets (luckily didn't buy them) and called to ask about the car. It was posted that day, didn't even have proper pictures or description yet. Let the guy know I'll come Sunday to see it (and of course pick it up, but didn't tell him that on the phone obviously). I didn't leave a deposit since there's a high chance I won't see it back if there's something wrong with the car. The guy on the phone was in a rush, didn't know how to hang up faster, so I just left it at that. I looked at the car daily, at least 3 times to chek if it's still available but yesterday, after checking it for like 5 times, I tried to show my girlfriend the car one last time before buying the coach tickets and getting ready, but the ad was gone... This morning the first thing I did was call the guy again and he just said "yeah it sold" and he hanged up... I have no leave days left at work and my mate was also at work until Sunday so couldn't go see it any faster.

Sadly... still looking for my IS250...

Still nothing?😂

[DnG]

On 9/13/2024 at 11:00 AM, H3XME said:

Still nothing?😂

Nothing man, I'm surprised you still remember me lol... And I don't know wtf is going on, insurance went down to around £1.5k but now I can't seem to be able to find a facelift SE-L for under £4.5k...

Not giving up yet (it's not like I have any other options as reliable and cheap as this)

[Linas.P]

Sorry, but I think here your unrealistic expectations meets the reality. There are so many things that are not compatible with each other in your search. 

You want SE-L and facelift... but majority of SE-Ls were early cars, I guess depends which "facelift" you want, but SE-Ls after 2008 are rare and after 2010 nearly non-existent (also 2010+ lost paddle shifters, maybe not a big loss, but I would not want late SE-L). So you looking for the needle in the haystack to begin with.

Secondly, you budget does not align... £4,000 is the price for nice IS250... period. Not facelift, not SE-L... sometimes such cars come around, but to have nice SE-L and facelift, and for it to cost under £4,000 and for it to be black on black... that is several layers of coincidences piled one on top of each other. Such car likely... just does not exist.

So there are certainly options there:

- you can have facelift F-Sport or SE-i for £4,000 - that is realistic goal.

- you can have relatively nice pre-facelift SE-L for £4,000 - again realistic.

- you can have "mid-lift" 2008-2010 SE-L for £4,000, but it may not be in that great of the condition, minor things, wheels needing refurbishment and tyres, few scratches, missed services.

- you can probably find "mid-lift" SE-L in great condition, but then it will cost more - something like £5,500 is where I think you can start finding cars like that...

...ohh and also - you must look for them nationally and should be willing to travel across the country to buy one, this is not optional, they are not BMWs that you can find in every shade, on every corner in any spec. and nobody going to bring you all black on black cars to midlands to choose from just for you to say "no! because of new criteria 1001".

It being black on black, it is matter of time, the combination do come from time to time, also swapping interior from any colour to black is not that complicated (I actually have full black interior from SE-L), but I have seen at least dozen of nice cars, black on black, in all 4 categories above coming and going in last 151 days... so if you were serious of buying one, you would already have had one. From all your criteria, I think this is the only one that is somewhat resonable, it does mean that you may need to wait a month or two until the right colour comes around, that is true probably with all cars.

"Rusted sub-frames" is not an issue IS250 suffers from, GS300 does, but IS250 doesn't. IS250 as many older Lexus cars generally have surface rust on everything underneath, suspension components, bolts etc. Exhaust will be rusted on 10+ year car unless replaced, so this is just given, no matter if you get early car or facelift, most of them will have rust in exhaust by now, you just need to replace it. So I guess your goal could be "rust free car", which 90% of IS250s are with exception of exhaust, but subframe rusting is just not something IS250s are known for, so I am puzzled with that one.

Insurance... okey that may be the reason, and sadly we live in the country where this scam literally affects lives of people. But if the reason of not having IS250 is insurance, then that is what it is, it is not that there were no good IS250s for 151 days, but rather you were not in position to own them, because of insurance shenanigans. 

In summary, market does not change around your criteria, you have built this unrealistic criteria around the car, which just makes it impossible for you to find the car (almost like you don't want to find one and just looking for excuses of why you don't want one), you may be looking for one for many years like this, until facelift becomes cheap enough to match your criteria... but I guess by that time they may indeed all have subframe rust, so it will not be good again! Basically, the car you looking for is a unicorn, you have to change your criteria if you seriously want to own IS250 one day. 

[DnG]

Alright, I think my whole situation might have annoyed you and I'm sorry about that but I know my current situation, why I do what I do and how hard it is for me to come by a bigger budget, I'll understand if you decide to stay away from my topic.

I've been looking at both Autotrader and eBay pretty much daily, I might have skipped 2-3 here and there but as I work from home and have nothing to do most of the time, I have plenty of time to just look at cars and this is what I found:

7 hours ago, Linas.P said:

you budget does not align... £4,000 is the price for nice IS250... period. Not facelift, not SE-L

When I started looking for an IS250, £2.500-£3.000 was the price for a decent looking 2006 - 2007 SE-L. In my previous replies I even linked a few, including some 2009-2010 in good condition (which were sold really quickly) and several people even confirmed the price expectation in the previous replies. At the start I didn't have all the money for the car including insurance and road tax that's why I've missed on a couple of really nice facelift models which I still feel bad for to this day.

7 hours ago, Linas.P said:

You want SE-L and facelift... but majority of SE-Ls were early cars, I guess depends which "facelift" you want, but SE-Ls after 2008 are rare and after 2010 nearly non-existen

This I didn't know, so thanks for the info. I still remember the first car I found, 2010 SE-L black on black, now I can only remember it since beggers can't be choosers. All but 1 2008 SE-Ls I see are low spec, not even a nav or headlight washers (probably not xenons) and there do seem to be a good handful of 2009 SE-Ls with decent specs, I avoided them because most had cream interior but that's I'll just take it as longs as it's black on the outside, cheaper to change the interior than to paint/wrap the exterior.

7 hours ago, Linas.P said:

you must look for them nationally and should be willing to travel across the country to buy one

I agree, I have started looking nationally for a few months now, at the start I was mainly focusing locally beause again, money (a coach ticket to London is around £40, and that's only 1 way which I could have used for petrol to bring the car back and being on a really tight budget and insurance being nearly £3k, I had to manage my every pound). I have since managed to convince a mate to come with me using his car, hopefully he won't back down since I've recently lost a perfect 2009 SE-L because he was at work on a Saturday...

7 hours ago, Linas.P said:

"Rusted sub-frames" is not an issue IS250 suffers from

I must vehemently disagree with you on this, and saying this from actually seeing it frequently. 2 out of 4 cars had failed MOTs (or advisories) stating rusted front/rear subframe mounts or even being dettached. I've seen a ton of these and sadly I don't have any screenshots of previous cars with rusted subframes, but there is currently one for sale and has been for months: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202407222039108 if you check the MOT you'll see it. There was also a guy selling one for £1.500 in Birmingham with the exact same thing saying it was in perfect condition and another one in London with only the rear subframe mounts severely corroded.

7 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Insurance... okey that may be the reason, and sadly we live in the country where this scam literally affects lives of people. But if the reason of not having IS250 is insurance, then that is what it is, it is not that there were no good IS250s for 151 days, but rather you were not in position to own them, because of insurance shenanigans.

Weirdly enough, insurance has gone down to about £1.200 (if I select a later start) - £1.600 (if I start it on the day), not sure if that's only for myself or the price of premiums went down for everyone. I even looked at an IS300h 2016 and insurance is only £100 more.

 

Searching and researching for months made me see a pattern. Most SE-Ls sell within a week or so and the price is steadily going up. I'm seeing 2007 SE-Ls sell for £5.000 - £6.500 which wasn't the case back in May when I started. People were asking £5-6k for F-Sports not SE-Ls, I'm seeing people asking £5-6k for SEs and some of them actually sell... I've had about 4 chances to buy one, but there was always something that came up, not having enough money for the high insurance and high road tax or sometimes the trip, not being able to get a day off from work, mates not being available or willing to drive over 200 miles or just not being fast enough and someone else snatching it from me. I do want an IS250, I really do, I have a kid on the way, family to take care off and my father's sh**itbox has it's engine half blown, can barely drive to my local Lidl without it overheating and spitting it's guts out. I need a reliable car that doesn't force me to get a membership or loyalty card at my local mechanic. I've tried looking at other cars but none fit the bill, reliable and cheap to repair cars are hard to come by, pretty much anything 2015+ are made to last only 100k miles so you buy another one. The reason I am specific with it is because I want to keep it long term, as it stands I can't afford upgrading or changing the paint because I don't like it or changing interior and figure out what to do with the parts, I don't even have a shed to store them in if I decide to do that.

At this rate I might just think about getting an IS300h, the more I wait for an IS250 the more my budget grows, IS250 prices are going up, they're getting old and rusty and they're starting not to be worth their price (if they end up being £5-6k for a standard 2007, £5k for a car that's reached it's legal age isn't worth it, only if it was parked in a garage for most of it's life and not made into a workhorse like the ones available... But I'm still not giving up, I will eventually stop posting my failures and post a picture of the car 😄

[Linas.P]

I am not annoyed, not even a bit - I simply see how futile are your efforts to find the car that just doesn't exist. You want best car with minimum budget.

49 minutes ago, DnG said:

£2.500-£3.000 was the price for a decent looking 2006 - 2007 SE-L.

£2,000-£3,000 are for Automatic IS250, below £2,000 you won't even find automatic or it will be complete shed. £3,000 can get you mediocre IS250, it could be mediocre SE-L, it could even be black on black mediocre SE-L, but it by no means going to be perfect. A decent SE-L of any vintage, with service history, in good shape etc. You looking closer to £4,000, so this "SE-L in great condition for £2,000-£3,000", never existed. Some people may get lucky from time to time but that is not the normal price. Sure some people don't know what they have, it is just old car and they may be willing to let it go for cheaper, to make quick sale. But generally, that only ever happens for mediocre cars that have issues and owner just can't be bothered to fix them, so instead they selling the car and buying something else. £4,000 can buy you decent SE-L, but hoping for it to be facelift and right colour and have all options as well is just not realistic.

Basically you looking for very rare car, but you want to spend absolute minimum for it. And that is like a sliding scale - you can get IS250 for cheap and it will be the car that needs some attention, or you can get absolutelly perfect car in great condition, but then you have to spend a lot of money for it. If you want the best you have to spend the most. Spending £5,500 or even more, some cars are even listed at £6,900 is absurd, when for £6,900 you can already buy 2012 GS250, which is all around better and more modern car. But if you want best IS250 SE-L in UK, then that is the price. Do you see the issue here - your expectations are for the car that is £7,000, but your budget is £4,500, but realistically you want to also fit insurance into it... so £3,000. You just can't get it, you will need to compromise somewhere, either increase the budget, or reduce the expectations.

49 minutes ago, DnG said:

SE-Ls I see are low spec, not even a nav or headlight washers (probably not xenons)

Just not possible. SE-L can't be low spec. Because the only 4 options available on SE-L are: Sunroof, Sat-Nav, ML and RDCC (ACC). Every single other option is already included. There are no SE-Ls without xenons/headlight washers... unless they were crashed and had headlight washer delete as part of repair, or even got cheap halogen or aftermarket lights instead of Xenon. It does make sense - Xenon light £580 a piece, halogen/aftermarket more like £250. I honestly considered washer delete when my SE-L was crashed, lights were not damaged, but I needed new bumper and I kind of regretted not doing it. Headlight washers is total waste of space, screen wash and literally just annoying.

Yes - SE-L can come without Sat-Nav, but honestly that is not an issue, the Sat-Nav was junk anyway and if you want any use of it, then Android replacement unit is almost must... Meaning you will throw away that old junk either way, why bother looking for the car that has it? 

49 minutes ago, DnG said:

I must vehemently disagree with you on this, and saying this from actually seeing it frequently. 2 out of 4 cars had failed MOTs (or advisories) stating rusted front/rear subframe mounts or even being dettached. I've seen a ton of these and sadly I don't have any screenshots of previous cars with rusted subframes, but there is currently one for sale and has been for months: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202407222039108 if you check the MOT you'll see it. There was also a guy selling one for £1.500 in Birmingham with the exact same thing saying it was in perfect condition and another one in London with only the rear subframe mounts severely corroded.

You can disagree all you like, but is it you or is it me who had 4x IS250s? And I can tell you with confidence that IS250 subframes, generally speaking, DO NOT RUST, and that area in general is not really problematic. There are always one exception where the car was parked at the bottom of the lake or something, but in comparison with all other makes and other Lexus models specifically subframe rust is not an issue on IS250. Specifically, in a sense in which that advisory is meant to be used it just doesn't exist, or it is very rare. So what I am saying - that advisory is WRONG, some testers are just anal about it. There may be surface rust around suspension components, around particularly one link (which is not subframe), but I have seen MOT centres using this advisory incorrectly, I even had it on my GS300 (actual fail, that I disrupted with DVLA and their inspector told me "yeah it shouldn't have failed", but that is story for another time), which do have much more sever issues with rust, I even have another GS300 which is completely rotten and I can compare and contrast what does rusted subframe or rusted subframe mounting areas looks like, and on IS250 it just isn't a concern. The car you linked, looks like perfectly good example of SE-L, good value, good year, slightly high mileage and I don't like the colour, but it looks like exactly the car to buy. If you want to use subframe rust as a negotiating point - go ahead, that may work, you may get yourself a bargain, but again - this isn't a common problem and I would argue it isn't a problem at all.

How many you have actually checked in person? Test driven? What I suggest you do - actually go under IS250 and look how the subframe looks and where the mounts are, then you may have some idea what you talking about, because for subframe to be rusted, or for the subframe mounts to be rusted to the point where it fails MOT, or further to the point where it becomes real problem, the car itself has to be gone. That is not to be confused with surface rust, which are purely cosmetic issue. And trust me - I have been under very rusty cars and rusty IS250s in particular... and rusty to the point I was cutting the bolts out as there was no way to undo them otherwise... and using wooden blocks to even lift the car, because sills were so far gone I could not lift it... and subframe was fine.

Like you know - certain cars have certain weak points... well subframe rust is not one of those spots on IS250. If you say rusted exhaust... I would say yeah likely (on any car 10 years old), sticking brake callipers - yes. Subframe is just not the thing to worry about, so get it out of your head. Just read this entire forum and you will see that there is not a single mention of IS250 having problems with subframe to the point it causes any substantial problems. IS200/300 (mk1) - yes, GS300 (mk1/mk2/mk3) - yes... IS250... it just isn't the case and if you get issues with that, then you are likely to be very first member here to report them!

49 minutes ago, DnG said:

Weirdly enough, insurance has gone down to about £1.200 (if I select a later start) - £1.600 (if I start it on the day)

Insurance is always cheapest ~ 2-3 weeks before you need it. If you want to insure next day - it is always at significant premium, like 40% more, even for me. I would like to find the person who decided to make it such way and shoot them in the face, because it is absurd and scummy, but that is what it is, so make sure to always quote 2 weeks in advance. I had to actually do that myself last year, and for few days I need the car in between I just got daily insurance for something like £28/day, because the difference between insuring "tomorrow" and insuring 10 days later was £955 vs. £580.

49 minutes ago, DnG said:

At this rate I might just think about getting an IS300h, the more I wait for an IS250 the more my budget grows, IS250 prices are going up.

I am kind of partially with you on this one... the prices and inflation are absurd. As I have said - I bought my last SE-L in 2014, 2008 car with 120k miles for £4,000... same car literally is worth the same today, 10 years later... except back then it was solid, premium, "fancy", 6 years old car... and next year it will be 20 years old model! That it still costs £4,000 is honestly ridiculous... but that is the market... and realistically you will be hard pushed to find anything better at that price point.

I would certainly stay clear of IS300h (although it has it's own benefits, namely £30 road tax), but at £6,000-£7,000 - I would be looking at GS250 or even 450h. So I think here you just need to take the car for what it is - it will not be perfect, because it will be 15 years old and 150k miles car, check for any major issues (if there is such thing on IS250) and get one for decent price. Again - I really cannot see anything wrong with the car linked for £3,500 (except colour), I would be quite confident it will last you another 50k and 5 years with minimal trouble and just standard services. 

[DnG]

I think you might have misunderstood where I stand. This isn't my first car, nor the second or third. I'm not looking for the perfect car, I know cars especially this age get rusty, frame, sides, joints, even the springs and disks/calipers and I know about through rust and surface rust. But I find it weird that I found a handful of IS250s that have advisories about the subframe mounting specifically. And aren't the IS250s covered in underbody panels? I doubt any seller would let me bring my Halfords 3T jack and axle stands and let me undo the panels.

Even the one I linked does have subframer mounting corrosion:

Monitor and repair if necessary (advisories):

    Front Subframe mounting prescribed area is corroded but not considered excessive (5.3.6 (a) (i))
    Rear Subframe mounting prescribed area is corroded but not considered excessive (5.3.6 (a) (i))
    Suspension component corroded but not seriously weakened (5.3.3 (b) (i))

I wish I had saved the other ones I saw, I remember one said the mounting on one side is dettached and the cars were from all over UK. I understand one mechanic being an idiot, another one thinking he inspecs Ferraries but when there's 3-4-5 of them that's a pattern. You may have owned 4 IS250s in the past but that was then, they're 18-20 years old now, maybe people took more care of them or they were more available back then but now, like you said, that's the market, if people don't take care of their cars and are now selling them and now you have to be extra vigillent when buying one, that's simply the way it is. Back 6 years ago when my BMW F10 was 4 years old, I didn't have to worry about the timing chain, but now time has passed and most of the ones you see available now have either had their timing chain snap or they're about to and people are selling them before they have to see the repair bill.

Also, I think I should make some things clear because I should have as some things have changed since I started looking for an IS250.

So previously insurance was £2.300-£2.800 and NOW it seems to be £1.200 - £1.600 which is excellent.

Also, my budget went from £4.000 to £8.500 (and will still grow by at least £1.000 each month) which should be £2.500 for insurance, full road tax, 3 day temp insurance to bring it home and use for a bit, and a full tank (+ a few quid left for extras) which leaves £6.000 for the car (I'd hope for around £4.500-£5.000 in case it needs some repairs).

So yeah, it's not all bad, but if I have to wait any longer while my budget increases, I'd much rather buy a newer car for the small difference than spend £6.000 on a 18 year old car. I miss the days when a 2005-2006 car was considered new, my dad still thinks 2008 is a new, 3 year old car. Don't get me wrong, if I see a nice example I'd happily pay £5.000, but anything over £4.500 for a 18 year old car, is not worth it, if it's closer to a 60 plate, maybe, but we're closer to the year 2030 than 2019 and spending £5.000+ on such an old car and not even being in good condition, I don't see the point, I can get something more comfortable and newer for that price, my only problem is that my mechanic is a Jap specialist, if I bring a BMW or Audi to him he'd tell me to f off and to be honest I like the look of the IS300h but I don't know much about it, especially the hybrids so I might have to do further research if it comes to that.

[Linas.P]

Any reasonable seller should let you do reasonable inspections. If the car has advisory for the subframe rust, it is really on the seller to prove otherwise, whenever that means they should allow you to lift the car and look underneath... I don't know. But maybe you can stick camera there and check. IS250 has a lot of plastic underneath - that is correct, but subframe generally is not really covered and even the plastics that do cover it, really makes it worse, just traps dirt. So yes - you can see subframe from under the car if you know where you are looking.

That said - the point still stands... MOT technicians may be careful and they list literally any rust near subframe as "subframe rust", and by nature of car being 18 years old, they just get this advisory by default. To be fair, the actual advisory is little bit stupid and kind naturally get's abused. Specifically, "6.2.2. Cab and body mounting" - it says that if there is rust within 30cm of the frame mounting point then it is advisory, and if technical believes that frame is significantly weakened, then it is major defect. The problem is that technicians are not engineers, and determining what is structural part of the body is really down to their discretion. And now think about it - 30cm from subframe mounting area... this is literally 60% of of the car, very few places are not within 30cm. How to determine the part they looking at are structural, or just a body panel? And because it is left for technician discretion, they are just playing safe and put the advisory there. Also advisory does not mean fault, it literally just needs to be taken as advise, the are needs to be monitored, maybe spray some rust inhibitor there, or maybe it will remain just cosmetic issue for another 5 years without doing anything. Yes - checking MOT history is one of the first things I do, but maybe you are just taking the advisories too seriously?

If anything subframe rust tells very little about condition of the car and how much previous owners cared for it, it is just kind of age thing, you can't really do much about it. Much more telling are advisories for worn tyres and stupid things like that, which could be taken care off, which could be dealt with, but owners just didn't care or didn't know they need to care for. 

I don't meant to disrespect, but you need to see how rear subframe looks and how front subframe looks to understand why those advisories are there and why they are wrong. It is really easier to show than to describe, but my point is - once you know how it looks and how it attaches to the car, you will understand that these advisories are nonsense. They simply see some surface rust on exposed suspension components, especially bolts and various brackets and they put advisory in. To have 15 years old car without rust is not realistic, however it is important to understand what is cosmetic surface rust and what is actually dangerous, or unsafe, or structural, or in some way needs attention, or from perspective of buying the car -significant defect, that depreciates the car.

With your budget you should have no issue getting SE-L, but perhaps not the facelift one (2010+), just because they are rare. The 2008-2010 car most likely. That said - the differences between 2005 cars and 2012 cars are minimal and mostly irrelevant. DLRs, Folding mirrors (£5 module), slightly different light design, 2010+ loses paddles shifters, car before 2008 can't play music from USB... honestly they are so minor that I always happy just to get the oldest car in best shape. And I had basically sample of every stage in IS250 lifecycle -  2012 F-Sport "final edition" (some dealer non-sense, I tend to believe it was just normal, fully loaded EU spec. F-Sport), 2010 Premium AWD (basically like SE-L in US), 2008 SE-L and 2006 SE-L... also it is funny to think that I owned them in that order, started from newest and now have the oldest. On some cars older vs. newer really makes a difference, like on BMW LCI is big deal, but on IS250 - it is basically same car throughout. 

 

[H3XME]

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

Any reasonable seller should let you do reasonable inspections. If the car has advisory for the subframe rust, it is really on the seller to prove otherwise, whenever that means they should allow you to lift the car and look underneath... I don't know. But maybe you can stick camera there and check. IS250 has a lot of plastic underneath - that is correct, but subframe generally is not really covered and even the plastics that do cover it, really makes it worse, just traps dirt. So yes - you can see subframe from under the car if you know where you are looking.

That said - the point still stands... MOT technicians may be careful and they list literally any rust near subframe as "subframe rust", and by nature of car being 18 years old, they just get this advisory by default. To be fair, the actual advisory is little bit stupid and kind naturally get's abused. Specifically, "6.2.2. Cab and body mounting" - it says that if there is rust within 30cm of the frame mounting point then it is advisory, and if technical believes that frame is significantly weakened, then it is major defect. The problem is that technicians are not engineers, and determining what is structural part of the body is really down to their discretion. And now think about it - 30cm from subframe mounting area... this is literally 60% of of the car, very few places are not within 30cm. How to determine the part they looking at are structural, or just a body panel? And because it is left for technician discretion, they are just playing safe and put the advisory there. Also advisory does not mean fault, it literally just needs to be taken as advise, the are needs to be monitored, maybe spray some rust inhibitor there, or maybe it will remain just cosmetic issue for another 5 years without doing anything. Yes - checking MOT history is one of the first things I do, but maybe you are just taking the advisories too seriously?

If anything subframe rust tells very little about condition of the car and how much previous owners cared for it, it is just kind of age thing, you can't really do much about it. Much more telling are advisories for worn tyres and stupid things like that, which could be taken care off, which could be dealt with, but owners just didn't care or didn't know they need to care for. 

I don't meant to disrespect, but you need to see how rear subframe looks and how front subframe looks to understand why those advisories are there and why they are wrong. It is really easier to show than to describe, but my point is - once you know how it looks and how it attaches to the car, you will understand that these advisories are nonsense. They simply see some surface rust on exposed suspension components, especially bolts and various brackets and they put advisory in. To have 15 years old car without rust is not realistic, however it is important to understand what is cosmetic surface rust and what is actually dangerous, or unsafe, or structural, or in some way needs attention, or from perspective of buying the car -significant defect, that depreciates the car.

With your budget you should have no issue getting SE-L, but perhaps not the facelift one (2010+), just because they are rare. The 2008-2010 car most likely. That said - the differences between 2005 cars and 2012 cars are minimal and mostly irrelevant. DLRs, Folding mirrors (£5 module), slightly different light design, 2010+ loses paddles shifters, car before 2008 can't play music from USB... honestly they are so minor that I always happy just to get the oldest car in best shape. And I had basically sample of every stage in IS250 lifecycle -  2012 F-Sport "final edition" (some dealer non-sense, I tend to believe it was just normal, fully loaded EU spec. F-Sport), 2010 Premium AWD (basically like SE-L in US), 2008 SE-L and 2006 SE-L... also it is funny to think that I owned them in that order, started from newest and now have the oldest. On some cars older vs. newer really makes a difference, like on BMW LCI is big deal, but on IS250 - it is basically same car throughout. 

 

Agreed. My green 250 got an advisory for rusty subframes. It was surface rust, it wasn’t rotten, but being a 2006 car it will have some rust. Not all rust is bad… both subframes are visible from under the car. Not really hidden behind plastics, which also means it’s one of the parts to be exposed 24/7 to the elements.. 

[H3XME]

I think at this point, I’d just settle for a dark grey SE-L for £2500… MOT history is decent, it’s got a full service history and interior swap is a matter of £300 and one afternoon. No point waiting for a spec that might not even come up for sale.. 

www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202407302308446

[Linas.P]

7 minutes ago, H3XME said:

Agreed. My green 250 got an advisory for rusty subframe. It was surface rust, it wasn’t rotten, but being a 2006 car it will have some rust. Not all rust bad… both subframes are visible from under the car. Not really hidden behind plastics. 

Or let's take for example the the IS250 (now 300!) that we pulled the engine out, it had plenty of rust underneath, I had to literally cut out the exhaust, because bolts didn't even look like bolts, but rather just clumps of rust... but was the subframe rusted? 

Sure some rust on the bolt caps, washers, some little silly brackets that hold plastics, some suspension components covered by dirt, mixed with brake dust, but all in all - everything was just surface rust and mostly even just dirt. Even subframe bolts that do get crusty at times were fine, subframes themselves - rear one didn't have much rust at all... front looked crusty, but it is aluminium, so it is just oxidation... in fact there was more in a way of galvanic corrosion, than actual rusting. And that is pretty much the worst possible case - 2006 car with 100k miles, meaning oldest possible example, with relatively low miles, the higher mileage cars actually have less rust, because they are more often used. So if that car looks the way it did, then surely rest of IS'es should not suffer from significant rusting to the subframe.

Or the GS300 that I personally deem "uneconomical repair", because it is "too far gone" in a way of rusting... if we just focus on subframes here... and GS300 are known to have issues with subframe rust, not only mounting points, but rear subframe itself. The subframes on that car are fine. The sills are gone, because it was lifted badly and damaged and then left to rot... but sills are not structural part. There is also hole in the floor, again just because some muppet lifted the car there... But in conclusion the car is complete scrap, too rusted to bother fixing it, yet as far as subframes in particular are concerned it isn't even that bad. Sure there were areas which I would say probably are "not for use on public roads" e.g. where I cut out the shock absorber bolt, because it was rusted and rounded-off, the lower control arm is really crumbling around the place where shock mounts. But that car looks like shaite from a mile away, so not much of surprise!

Spoiler alert, it has passed MOT with single advisory for one tyre close to legal limit. I don't know how and I don't think I want to know. Yet my daily GS300, which has half the mileage and generally is in good shape is always haunted by nonsensical advisories, despite being in 10 times better shape. So the MOT is a bit of lottery really, should be checked to have some argument for negotiating the price, but rarely it reflects the condition of the car accurately. 

[DnG]

Well, with all that being said, I'm having another look at that 2009 I posted. It's really weird how it's still for sale since July 22nd as on the surface, it's a really good price and a nice looking car so there might be more to those "corrosion" advisories and it's in Hounslow so it's not like I can walk down from Birmingham to see if and come back home. I'll give that guy a call and ask about it, see what he says.

I understand what you guys are saying about the advisories but I'm still thinking about it. The tests seem to be made by 2 different mechanics based on their style of advisories (the 2023 being lazier) and both stated corrosion (but then again, might just be surface rust, if they haven't done the "screwdriver test"). I'm really not looking to cheap out that much and have the call fall appart on the first pothole.

[DnG]

Update:

So I found a nice looking SE that I'll be going to see tomorrow. The guy said that the only problems with the car are one of the shocks is leaking but has a set of coilovers ready and that the car throws out a crankshaft sensor error, which he said is a common problem.

I haven't really heard anything about crankshaft sensors, could it be something else or is it fine and a quick fix? He said if I don't want to wait until he gets it done we can do something on the price and have myself do it, how much would this job cost with the parts?

[Linas.P]

Crankshaft position sensor is not common issue. If I said forget about subframe, then this is many times more unlikely to fail. I could only speculate here, but the this could be stretched engine chain or failed chain tensioner, I have never heard it happening on 4GR-FSE, but it has happened on 2GR-FXE (GS450h), that would be very rare problem to occur, usually only on high mileage cars (180k+). The other possibility - some muppet was doing some muppeting under engine bay and damaged the wiring, or damaged the sensor somehow, it sits basically under A/C compressor, so maybe somebody were jamming A/C compressor in and damaged the plug or wires... And this is basically most common way how IS250 becomes faulty - somebody literally comes and damages something with their two left hands. 

Seems surprising that we pivoted from perfect facelift SE-L, to SE that has leaking shocks (which to be fair non-issue) and probable engine issue (which would have even me worried)!? 

I indeed said to lower the expectations, but not that much ! 😄 

[H3XME]

5 hours ago, DnG said:

Update:

So I found a nice looking SE that I'll be going to see tomorrow. The guy said that the only problems with the car are one of the shocks is leaking but has a set of coilovers ready and that the car throws out a crankshaft sensor error, which he said is a common problem.

I haven't really heard anything about crankshaft sensors, could it be something else or is it fine and a quick fix? He said if I don't want to wait until he gets it done we can do something on the price and have myself do it, how much would this job cost with the parts?

Like Linas said. Not a common thing that sensor.. shocks are expected to go at certain mileage. Not an issue..

Have you seen this one? It's in Wolverhampton, not far from brum.. autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202409023546966

[Linas.P]

1 hour ago, H3XME said:

Like Linas said. Not a common thing that sensor.. shocks are expected to go at certain mileage. Not an issue..

Have you seen this one? It's in Wolverhampton, not far from brum.. autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202409023546966

It is surprising how SE sometimes comes so loaded - leather, ML, Sat-nav etc. 

This one maybe not the cleanest example (literally), but with just 82k miles it does have loads of life left in it after good wash and vac. That said for £4,500... I would take greyish SE-L for £3,500... sure higher miles, but it has many neat things about. Surprising how dealer listed the car for pretty much top-buck and could not even bother to take it to basic hand wash and scratch for £20. 

To be fair - I looked trough all the cars on sale and could not find anything that I would really be happy with or could recommend. I probably would go for 2010 SE-L Convertible, but that is because I don't mind convertibles, like coupes and don't need rear seats (they would be plenty for new born, but not for any adult). 

[DnG]

I’m on my way to see that SE I was talking about, the guy sent me a video and a picture of the error: