Why do we hate on the 200T motor?

[MartinH]

I've been looking for a Premier of the right spec, and found one. But it is a 200T, not a 300h.

I'm aware that many members of this forum are lukewarm at best about this motor, some indeed very critical, mentioning slow power delivery and indecisive changing from the 8-speed gearbox.

I would welcome hearing their impressions from drivers who have driven, or still drive, this car!

[Notamech]

Not an owner but i havent heard many owners complain much about the 200t in the UK at least. I know that since the 2.5l V6 has only direct injection it is prone to carboning up at higher mileages. Also i think most people are skeptical because it was viewed as not a very reliable engine in the US probably due to many people running it on regular fuel when it needed premium fuel (in the US). In the UK even non premium fuel is already good quality and 95octane so not as many issues with it in the UK from what i understand but perhaps people avoid it just because other arguably better options are available like the 300h for the IS and the 300h/450h for the GS.

[H3XME]

 

1 hour ago, MartinH said:

I would welcome hearing their impressions from drivers who have driven, or still drive, this car!

Having been in that boat, I considered a 200t, albeit RC. My thoughts on it, after a 45min test drive were.. mixed. Ignoring the tuning potential, out of the box it didn't feel much faster than my IS250 (08), probably due to its weight. The sound wasn't anything to rave about either, and fuel economy was worse/same as my IS250's.. I literally saw no point in it. Especially since we're talking IS now, that you can still buy with an already proven V6 version or the 300h if you do a lot of city driving. The best thing to do is to go out and drive it, see what you think.. 10 people / 10 different opinions and all that.

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202404128595259

[GMB]

I like my 200t despite what anyone else thinks. It is quirky yes but it also has character. 100% reliable, 28mpg🤔, quick enough for most folk (when it feels in the mood or decides what gear it wants to play with - what do you fancy? 8th or 7th or shall we stay in 4th because you pressed the throttle a bit harder, no we will go for 5th or 6th and then change up to 8th at speeds over 40mph, but not uphill..... and so on...... ).  A very nice cruiser at any speed.  The funniest bit is that it is called an F sport. It is neither an F or sporty.  I love it. I am sure that it is female.

[MartinH]

An 8-speed box should work nicely — I once rented a BMW with the 'legendary' ZF box and found it very persuasive — but several here, and most scribblers, have said the unit fitted to the 200T falls short. And that would be a disappointment after the supreme ease of use of the IS250's V6+6-speed autobox.

[Linas.P]

I owned RC200t with the "8FARTS" engine as I like to call it, not sure there is point for me repeating all the detailed stuff, but the summary would be - wrong engine for wrong car, horrible fuel economy for what it delivers (drove RC-F with 5L engine and back to back on the same road it was more fuel efficient), the gearbox is not well adjusted for the engine (so it is indeed hunting for gears, very similar gearbox in RC-F/IS-F works flawlessly, so is not gearbox fault, but the poor paring with engine that had very short power range). Overall, think Lexus could not decide what they wanted to do with the car, they wanted to make it more economical and adjusted it for that, but car has worse fuel economy, yet because it was adjusted for economy it has no character either. So it is economy car that is not economical and sports car that is not sporty...

In particular when comparing with IS250 it is very disappointing, 4GR-FSE is smooth and happy revving engine which provides almost instant response, despite having more power IS200t would be behind IS250 up-to 40MPH and probably only catch it up by 50MPH, to beat it by 0.5 second to 60MPH. So the issue is response compared to NA engine, on you reach like 50MPH and you in right gear IS200t really pull strong to something like 110MPH, but that is no longer practical nor really needed.

Also I have speculated that 3GR-FSE which has roughly comparable power is better engine and now I am very confident about that (after owning GS300), it has more power, it is more responsive and smoother, it sounds better and in the end it is more economical... It is complete mystery what 8FARTS exists as an engine, it really doesn't do anything well, except of maybe beating some theoretical emissions test.

Easiest way to find out is to go an try it yourself... although word of warning, it didn't feel as bad to me when I test drove it, compared to living with it day to day, so if at all possible extended test drive is recommended. 

 

[MartinH]

Yes, my misgivings were based on a close reading of your experience, Linus.

Probably better to keep on looking for a 300h... esp one that qualifies for the £10 road tax!

[GMB]

If you want a quiet peaceful (some would say boring) life go for the 300h. If you like a bit of a challenge and a bit more fun get a 200t. In fact the turbo rush in sport/kickdown at 60 plus is quite a hoot, although not as violent as my old Audi 2.3 5 cylinder turbo.  Horses for courses I suppose. It's such a shame that some folk don't appreciate the qualities of the 200t. It has its issues but it is still a very good car. Try one after you have had a go in a 300h, if you are still awake after the experience.🫢

BTW One big incentive for the 200t is that it does not have the dreaded mind-numbing CVT, instead it has an "interesting" automatic gearbox with the soul of Adolf Hitler in it.

 

Over to you Linas - come on admit it, you like them really because they are strange individual beasts.

[GMB]

 How unusual   ---    Here's someone actually having fun in a 200t!!!

It's interesting how the car does not spin the engine up very quickly. Almost lethargic in its revs as can be heard in the video. I wonder if Lexus put an overweight flywheel in it for some reason? Smoother running??

 

[GMB]

Here's a similar video of the 300h for comparison.  Just not the same is it?😒

 

[Linas.P]

1 hour ago, GMB said:

Over to you Linas - come on admit it, you like them really because they are strange individual beasts.

I agree that from 50MPH up it pulls really strongly, but utility of that is rather limited. I can't really say I like the engine, only in isolation it is slightly more exciting than 300h.

I think my key issue remains that Toyota/Lexus is probably best resourced automotive company in the world and that is the answer they come-up with? 2L turbo engine that uses more fuel than 3L V6 despite having less power?! Just doesn't make sense... I don't like 300h either, I do find them relaxing/boring to drive, but after owning one I am really not sure what Lexus even tried to achieve with 200t?!

Throughout my ownership I felt like driving rental car all the time, that sort of feeling - "it is nice an comfortable car, which sort of does what the car needs to do, but I just don't care about it, the engine is just not exciting, but because it is 'temporary' car I kind of don't mind it"... And this is unusual for me, for many people that is normal, they lease the car for few years, they trade it in, they get another car and never care about what they have. But I am never like that, I do care about the cars and I do appreciate what I have and I like to have that attachment to the car, sort of desire to work on it, detail it, modify it etc. But with RC200t I never had this appreciation for the car mainly because of the engine, I just do not consider it good engine, and especially I do not consider it acceptable coming from the company like Lexus, who can do better, who have better engines. So again going back to rental car driving... for me it was like you rent premium car and let's say it is Mercedes E-Class, so you may get E300 or E220d, you may prefer E300, but at the desk they say "it is that black car on the right, it is diesel, full tank now, return with full tank"... so it is not like you going to start argument and say "ohhh no I don't want E220d, I want E300".... it is rental, it is E-Class, it gives you certain level of comfort and that is end of it, you use it, drop it off week later, you don't care if it had Harman Kardon stereo, sunroof, or what colour combination it was etc. It is feeling of sort of not caring, because it is not your car... and RC200t, specifically the engine in it was such a turn-off for me that I really didn't care about the car, never felt excited about owning it. And I assume same would apply to 300h.

I really wish there would be RC200t on the market today with blown engine for cheap (or 300h for that matter, 300h actually would be better because of £20 road tax)... I probably would go ahead and put some more exciting engine in it and that is what would make that car great... sadly these engines are reliable, not very likely to see one blown at any time soon.

[MartinH]

This LED me inexorably here

[Linas.P]

Don't know - FWD is dealbreaker for me. Even for cars that are not sports cars and maybe don't have that much more power RWD drives much better.

[GMB]

10 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Don't know - FWD is dealbreaker for me. Even for cars that are not sports cars and maybe don't have that much more power RWD drives much better

For me the CVT is the deal breaker too.

[Linas.P]

4 hours ago, GMB said:

For me the CVT is the deal breaker too.

eCVT on RC/IS is less dealbreaker to be fair, yes it still drones at 4000RPM or so when you on middle of accelerator, but it revs up if you push it to the floor, or if you go in FSport+ mode fake "upshifts and downshifts" are both instantaneous and satisfying in the bends. I guess if I would improve anything on it, that would be that in Fsport+ manual mode I would make it to keep the "ratio" that you have chosen for longer, or even forever. Currently, it keeps the ratio I don't know... maybe for 30s or for 60s, so sometimes what happens is that by the time you go from one turn to another it goes back to D and drops the ratio. So for example you playing around with paddles on eCVT before the bend you change to "3rd", then "4th" in the bend and you already see another bend, so in such case if you would be in real manual car you stay in 4th, rev it to the limit and before next bend maybe change back to 3rd again... what happens on eCVT is that when you rev out the 4th and let's before the bend with intention with braking a little bit and changing to 3rd the gearbox simply goes to D and sets probably ratio equivalent to 6th, so now you start braking and instead of expected 1 click to go to third, you have to change ratio 3 times. I mean it works like poorly optimised automatic gearbox in this sense, but all that is software and when it works it actually mimics DTC quite well, the only problem is that short memory where after 30s it goes "WTF is going here - I am economy car and 4th gear at 60MPH is not economical, let me fix this". So really the fix would be simple software update where FSport+ and Manual would mean no auto upshifts and it would be in manual mode as long as you keep it there, not just for some arbitrary time.

Well the second problem is what engine that eCTV is matched to. GS450h for example is still great car to drive despite eCVT, because drone from nice V6 is not so horrible, drone from pesky 4 cylinder in 300h is much more annoying. But apart of that eCVT in Lexus is one of the best systems where I would go as far as saying I almost like it.

In summary - mate it to V6 and make manual mode real manual and the rest is good already. 

[Mr_Groundhog]

On 4/19/2024 at 5:45 PM, MartinH said:

This led me inexorably here

Seems a very nice car, which tells me they won't bring it to Europe. 
I drove a non-hybrid Camry in the US and I was surprised by how comfortable it was, and how elastic the engine. Last time I had a Nissan Altima and it is light years behind in everything.