Thoughts on possible 12v Battery issues with LBX

[Zotto]

About reading real V on Battery, it's possible for few seconds as I described in recent post.

[EEH]

So my LBX Tukumi Design (Cool Atmosphere for EU) model  finally arrived on Wednesday. My dealer knew that I have had my fair share of concerns having owned the top of the range Yaris and had many issues as seen in my post. On the basis that I do not do much mileage, they installed a wiring lead that runs directly to the 12v Battery under the rear seat, with a connector which I am meant to use to connect to a small solar panel..... Nothing new and seen this being done on a few Yaris and Toyota owner forums.

As the car has the rear privacy glass which apparently reflects UV rays, I  was told the only solution was to then extend this lead out the top of the door, so that I can plug the panel (not very big) in which then attaches to the car with rubber suction cups either on the roof or rear side window. While I am grateful for a possible solution, you can just imagine how strange this looks on a "luxury" vehicle with this contraption stuck on it. I can see it either getting stolen or my wife driving off with the thing and it falling off.

I think it is a possible solution to trickle charge the Battery for the periods that the car is not driven, but time will tell if this is a possible solution for those who have the same problem. Just thought to share.

Will keep you posted on future events

[stepppy]

When I had my Prius the dealer was selling solar panels that plugged into the OBD port under the dash, then the panel sat on the dashboard and got enough charge to keep the Battery topped up. No good for me though as my cars live in the garage.

Maybe that would work for you. Personally I never had any Battery issues in the 7 years I had my Prius and I only do around 3,000 miles a year. 

[Tel]

I have had Hybrids since 2013 & never had an issue although I will always take a longer urban route once a fortnight to ensure zero Battery issues.

Tel

[stepppy]

21 minutes ago, Tel said:

I have had Hybrids since 2013 & never had an issue although I will always take a longer urban route once a fortnight to ensure zero battery issues.

Tel

Same here. I had my Prius for over seven years and never had an Issue with the 12v Battery. 

I am a low mileage user too, the car only had 23,000 miles when I sold it and it still had the original 12v Battery. 

[EEH]

Hi Stephen and Terry, appreciate we all have had different experiences with owning our cars, and really glad both have had no issues at all owning them on the Battery front, however I can only report on what my experiences were like owning a hybrid and the frustrations and issues I had. I am truly holding thumbs this time round the experience will be the same as yours. 

[iainmangle]

You will have exactly the same problem, I'm afraid. Bought my LBX end of June 24 and had to call out the AA before the end of August. Technician was less than complimentary and suggested that even leaving the ignition on for five minutes (which I didn't but......) was enough to drain what he described as a pathetic the 12v Battery. Tried to start the car today, less than 2 months later, and exactly the same problem. The process for even trying to resolve the issue is anything but simple or intuitive, and ultimately pointless. You have to withdraw the blade key, snap off a piece of tacky trim from the door handle, and then yank on an even tackier manual door release to get into the car. I did that so that I could open the bonnet to charge the Battery, thinking there should be no need to trouble the AA a second time (and save my blushes). Connected the cables from my Battery charger, switched on, and all hell broke loose. with horn and alarm sounding off. I read somewhere that if you wait 20 seconds the alarm turns off but after 30 it was still going so I disconnected. This stopped the horn but not the alarm which reset itself repeatedly after a brief respite of maybe 3 seconds! In the end, having failed to charge the Battery myself, I had to call the AA, which is frankly ridiculous. Most expensive car ever owned, and teh most disappointing. A car to me is simply a means of getting from A to B reliably, and Lexus supposedly have a good reliability record (does it include batteries??), so that is why invested a lot of cash in one. I owned a Golf for seven years and never once got the charger out, and my wife's Seat Leon has never needed one either. Lexus clearly scrimp on the 12v Battery on the basis it doesn't have much to do - I always thought starting the engine was pretty critical but what do I know? I know I won't be buying another Lexus that is for sure. 

[EEH]

20 hours ago, iainmangle said:

You will have exactly the same problem, I'm afraid. Bought my LBX end of June 24 and had to call out the AA before the end of August. Technician was less than complimentary and suggested that even leaving the ignition on for five minutes (which I didn't but......) was enough to drain what he described as a pathetic the 12v battery. Tried to start the car today, less than 2 months later, and exactly the same problem. The process for even trying to resolve the issue is anything but simple or intuitive, and ultimately pointless. You have to withdraw the blade key, snap off a piece of tacky trim from the door handle, and then yank on an even tackier manual door release to get into the car. I did that so that I could open the bonnet to charge the battery, thinking there should be no need to trouble the AA a second time (and save my blushes). Connected the cables from my battery charger, switched on, and all hell broke loose. with horn and alarm sounding off. I read somewhere that if you wait 20 seconds the alarm turns off but after 30 it was still going so I disconnected. This stopped the horn but not the alarm which reset itself repeatedly after a brief respite of maybe 3 seconds! In the end, having failed to charge the battery myself, I had to call the AA, which is frankly ridiculous. Most expensive car ever owned, and teh most disappointing. A car to me is simply a means of getting from A to B reliably, and Lexus supposedly have a good reliability record (does it include batteries??), so that is why invested a lot of cash in one. I owned a Golf for seven years and never once got the charger out, and my wife's Seat Leon has never needed one either. Lexus clearly scrimp on the 12v battery on the basis it doesn't have much to do - I always thought starting the engine was pretty critical but what do I know? I know I won't be buying another Lexus that is for sure. 

Hi Iain. Sad to read your post. Sadly I was not allowed to cancel my order even after I raised my concerns multiple times with my dealer. Found it odd as they knew my concern re the Battery and how little I drive and held me to my order. Took delivery of my new LBX mid August. Their solution as you may read in my post, was to install a wiring loom directly to my 12v Battery, which I can then connect a small solar panel to. (I had to pay for this installation and panel too btw 😞 which I was not happy about ether)

I have done less than 600km in 2 months and so far I have had no issues. It would seem that the solar panel is doing its job... and hope it continues to do so.

Totally agree with you, there is a flaw in the Toyota/Lexus hybrid 12v Battery draining  issues with when compared to owning a regular petrol powered car. I too have never had any issues with starting any of my cars for over 30 years until my hybrid Yaris. There are some who have owned hybrids and never experienced this and are lucky, but can only report on my experiences.

The BIG thing about owning them is to adapt the way you drive them. It is ridiculous to be honest and something I do not believe the dealers explain to new owners, leaving many frustrated and stranded. If you follow some simple rules, which I have learned the hard way they can function well.

When parked and you have door open or radio etc on, always makes sure the car is in "ready mode" with handbrake on and in P to ensure the Traction Battery charges the 12v Battery. Hybrids use a DC to DC converter to charge the 12v vs a ICE car that uses an alternator to charge when the engine is running.  I always put my key into "sleep" mode too. 

Not sure if you tried to jump start the car or tried to charge the 12v Battery using the front connecting point found under the bonnet? If you tried to charge the 12v Battery at this point it may explain why you experienced the alarm trigger issues as I believe this point is best used to jump start the car and not charge it. Best would be to do so by connecting directly to the 12v Battery under the seat which is a right pain to access. 

Perhaps you could explore a solar panel option or if you lucky to have a power point near where your car parks install a trickle charger wiring loom directly to the 12v Battery so you can charge the Battery every now and then. 

 

[GMB]

When one has to do all these workarounds just to start the car it seems obvious that there is a flaw in the system. So Lexus should fix it ASAP - no argument.

BTW why not just keep it on a trickle charger when not in use for over 24 hrs? I don't know about hybrids, never having owned or even wanted one, but surely that would sort it out.

Final point - we bought a brand new Up Gti and the Battery would go flat if only used for short runs. Sold it within 12 months. I think these modern complicated systems put too much load on the Battery maybe?.

[stepppy]

1 hour ago, EEH said:

… Not sure if you tried to jump start the car or tried to charge the 12v battery using the front connecting point found under the bonnet? If you tried to charge the 12v battery at this point it may explain why you experienced the alarm trigger issues as I believe this point is best used to jump start the car and not charge it. Best would be to do so by connecting directly to the 12v battery under the seat which is a right pain to access. 

 

 

I use the + point under the bonnet of my NX for my smart charger when I am holiday and have not experienced any alarm issues. 

[EEH]

8 minutes ago, stepppy said:

I use the + point under the bonnet of my NX for my smart charger when I am holiday and have not experienced any alarm issues. 

Thanks for info Stephen. Had read in other forums it was not advisable, but seems to work as you say, so thanks for the clarification. 

[ColinBarber]

Using the charging point in the engine bay or directly on the Battery makes no difference.

The alarm going off when you connect a charger indicates that your Battery voltage has gone very low - the alarm will trigger if its 12 v supply is disrupted when armed as an anti-theft measure.

Depending on how flat the Battery is, you may struggle to disable the alarm with the keyfob - in this situation it is advisable to disconnect the 12 v Battery and charge it disconnected, and then only reconnect the vehicle once it has a good charge.

[Herbie]

On 10/16/2024 at 10:38 AM, iainmangle said:

Tried to start the car today, less than 2 months later, and exactly the same problem

No wonder it was flat if you're leaving it for almost two months.

The quiescent current draw (this is to keep things like the radio presets, the seat memory, the clock and suchlike, alive when the car is not in use) is somewhere around 50 to 70 milliamps (mA) or 0.05 to 0.07A, perhaps even more. Someone said that the LBX has a Battery rated at 35Ah, which means that it can supply 35A for one hour, or 17.5A for two hours, or 8.75A for four hours and so on.

If we assume a brand new and fully charged Battery, we can say 35Ah divided by 0.07A = 500 hours to go from fully charged to fully discharged. That's just 20.83 days or 3 weeks. And don't forget that the Battery will not be able to start the car long before it becomes fully discharged, so that reduces the useable time again.

On 10/16/2024 at 10:38 AM, iainmangle said:

Lexus clearly scrimp on the 12v battery on the basis it doesn't have much to do - I always thought starting the engine was pretty critical but what do I know?

No one knows for sure but speculation indicates two things:

• Weight. Less weight means better fuel consumption figures
• Cost. Smaller batteries cost less. A conventional car will pull over 300A to crank the engine but it takes just 20A or less to get a hybrid into READY mode, so a smaller Battery makes sense - to a degree.

We may think they made a stupid decision but when you think how many cars they produce annually, that's not a trivial saving.

6 hours ago, EEH said:

Totally agree with you, there is a flaw in the Toyota/Lexus hybrid 12v battery draining  issues with when compared to owning a regular petrol powered car.

Sadly it's not a flaw or problem in the sense that it can be fixed. It's a design issue that should have never got off the drawing board, but it did, and we just have to put up with it.

[Hazzle]

LBX 6 months old. Daily (7 days per week) 7-mile round trip. Today did additional morning 40-mile round trip to get recall (reprogramme) work done at main dealer. At 8.00 pm (after 7-mile round trip), message comes up Battery LOW.  First trouble in 6 months.

[EEH]

6 hours ago, Hazzle said:

LBX 6 months old. Daily (7 days per week) 7-mile round trip. Today did additional morning 40-mile round trip to get recall (reprogramme) work done at main dealer. At 8.00 pm (after 7-mile round trip), message comes up BATTERY LOW.  First trouble in 6 months.

Your story sounds all too similar to my Yaris experience. Owned the car for year with no issues and after its first service the issues started. I honestly believe the technicians or mechanics don’t know or don’t care about the Battery drain issue they suffer with. We all know the biggest culprits are leaving the car on in ACC mode or even leaving the car unlocked drains the Battery. I’m sure the car had to be on while they programmed the new software or issue and who knows for how long? 
 

i noticed a couple of hybrids in for service when I collected my car during the day which had multiple doors open for extended periods with the interior lights on. This all leads to the dreaded 12v drain and then issues after if not charged up to full again.

[Hazzle]

17 hours ago, Hazzle said:

LBX 6 months old. Daily (7 days per week) 7-mile round trip. Today did additional morning 40-mile round trip to get recall (reprogramme) work done at main dealer. At 8.00 pm (after 7-mile round trip), message comes up BATTERY LOW.  First trouble in 6 months.

 

[Hazzle]

30 minutes ago, Hazzle said:

 

Curiously, the Battery LOW message was no longer showing on the centre display today (Saturday). Had been unable to get main dealer service to answer the phone. Sales wondered if it was my key Battery that was low. Am now exploring how to monitor the state of charge of my 12v Battery. Glad to see suggestions of dealer-fitted loom for trickle charger (I have an outdoor 13-amp socket) or mini solar panel. Will try again to raise dealer service about these on Monday. (I’m no electrician as is obvious — and new to the club, also obvious. Sorry if I bore anybody.)

[Herbie]

27 minutes ago, Hazzle said:

Curiously, the BATTERY LOW message was no longer showing on the centre display today (Saturday). Had been unable to get main dealer service to answer the phone. Sales wondered if it was my key battery that was low. Am now exploring how to monitor the state of charge of my 12v battery. Glad to see suggestions of dealer-fitted loom for trickle charger (I have an outdoor 13-amp socket) or mini solar panel. Will try again to raise dealer service about these on Monday. (I’m no electrician as is obvious — and new to the club, also obvious. Sorry if I bore anybody.)

I don't have an LBX so this is a complete guess on my part but I've had a 2013 RX450h and currently have a 2018 RX450h, and neither of them had any warning systems (apart from the standard dash warning light) that referred to the 12V Battery. My guess is that your car doesn't have anything either and the 'Battery LOW' warning was for the traction Battery.

I sometimes see this when I press the EV button but the screen tells me EV is not available due to low Battery. It doesn't take long for the regenerative braking to get some power back into the traction Battery and all's well again.

[Hazzle]

1 hour ago, Herbie said:

I don't have an LBX so this is a complete guess on my part but I've had a 2013 RX450h and currently have a 2018 RX450h, and neither of them had any warning systems (apart from the standard dash warning light) that referred to the 12V battery. My guess is that your car doesn't have anything either and the 'BATTERY LOW' warning was for the traction battery.

I sometimes see this when I press the EV button but the screen tells me EV is not available due to low battery. It doesn't take long for the regenerative braking to get some power back into the traction battery and all's well again.

You’re correct, Herbie, about the lack of warning systems on the LBX. I’ve sought info on how to check the state of charge of my 12v Battery in vain. And your guess about the traction Battery being temporarily low also rings very true (it fits all the facts). It’s not just the systems which are deficient on the LBX. The index to the users’ manual is quite useless — and the only way to stop my disabled blue badge sliding all over (& eventually off) the dash-top is to slide the bottom half of the blue badge down the narrow gap between the dash-top & the windscreen (thus obscuring from view much of the badge). Thank you for setting my mind at rest. It’s been quite an anxious day or so.

[Briar]

I occasionally use a multi-meter to measure the 12v Battery voltage.  It is surprising how much it varies.  I measured it this morning and it was 12.1v, surprisingly low as I did a 60 mile journey yesterday. I put my CETK charger on it for four hours to top it up.

[NemesisUK]

The only reference to Battery Low I could find in the handbook was with respect to the key fob Battery and that clearly states key Battery.

 

[Lexusjim]

11 minutes ago, Hazzle said:

I’ve sought info on how to check the state of charge of my 12v battery in vain. 

I have one if these fitted.....

https://www.ancel.com/products/ancel-bm200

Information is sent to an app on your phone via Bluetooth if it is within 10 feet or so...I find it useful and reassuring to know the battery's state of charge, as I don't use the car every day. Only uses about 1.5 milliamps so very little additional drain

[Hazzle]

4 minutes ago, NemesisUK said:

The only reference to Battery Low I could find in the handbook was with respect to the key fob battery and that clearly states key battery.

 

On mine, the word "key" was not there, and the display was on the central screen. I nevertheless explored what then seemed the key Battery possibility, using the method shown in 2 or 3 online videos — but could not get the mechanical key to split open the electronic key, try as I might. Other advisers said it is not at all easy & it’s best to get the dealer to do it. The older I get, the more I find the digitalisation & electricalisation of so much in car maintenance (that used to be relatively easy when nearly everything was mechanical) is of questionable advantage.

[NemesisUK]

14 minutes ago, Hazzle said:

but could not get the mechanical key to split open the electronic key, try as I might.

One doesn't use the mechanical key to open the case, see below from the handbook, the cover slides off

[Hazzle]

20 minutes ago, Lexusjim said:

I have one if these fitted.....

https://www.ancel.com/products/ancel-bm200

Information is sent to an app on your phone via Bluetooth if it is within 10 feet or so...I find it useful and reassuring to know the battery's state of charge, as I don't use the car every day. Only uses about 1.5 milliamps so very little additional drain

I’ve seen videos about the Ancel product. It does mean getting to the LBX’s 12v Battery, which is in a hatch beneath a seat. Thus dealer fitting would be the way for people like me. I’m exploring the use of a trickle charger as an alternative — though that too and its loom would have to be dealer-fitted. (So much more these days seems designed to keep money flowing into dealerships.)