Electrical gremlin - any ideas?

[Scribe]

Last week, electrics were non-existent after leaving the car unused for two weeks.  No interior lights, no red security light, nothing.  Connected the Battery charger to the Battery and there was nothing - as if the Battery was dead.  I wondered if it (Yuasa, three years old) had given up.  The next day, when I tried again, the Battery charger lit up as if there was now a connection, but the Battery seemed not to take any charge. 

The following day, when my mechanic came to pick up the car to fix the exhaust, there was power but not enough for the starter motor.  He put his Battery pack on and the car immediately fired up.  He was going to replace the Battery but the car was fine all day, and started a few times perfectly normally.  I used the car two days later and it drove beautifully without missing a beat.  Everything worked.  But this morning, after another four days, there are no interior lights, nothing from the ignition, no lights.  It's as good as dead again, except that the red security light is flashing normally.

I assume that if the battery's faulty, the power wouldn't go but come back again.  Ditto with a blown fuse.  So could it be a connection issue?

 

[Jon Evans]

Get yourself a cheap multimeter to definitively find out whether or not the Battery is dead in the future. They are less than a tenner and will show you the actual voltage you're getting at the Battery terminals. You could also look into getting a car Battery tester, I bought a JDiag BT300 for about £35 from amazon. This will give you an indication of Battery capacity.

[Duggie B]

Sounds as though one of the plates within the Battery could be at fault .....maybe at one stage the Battery went flat and putting a load on it (starting up current draw) buckled a plate or two thus causing your issue. 

[Malc1]

35 minutes ago, Scribe said:

I wondered if it (Yuasa, three years old) had given up. 

Did the existing Battery come with a warranty maybe ?

I bought my last ( August just past )  new Yuasa Battery 5 yr warranty from GSF motor factors at £166 ......  the previous Yuasa one it replaced on my 91 Ls400 had been there about 8 years 

Maybe get them or someone to test the old Battery .........      new one is Yuasa 335/5000   100Ah 830cca

best to order on-line to collect in store, it's less expensive than buying over that same counter for some weird reason 🙃

But only if you're going to buy a new one of course ...........

Good luck

Malc

[Razor61]

1 hour ago, Scribe said:

Last week, electrics were non-existent after leaving the car unused for two weeks.  No interior lights, no red security light, nothing.  Connected the battery charger to the battery and there was nothing - as if the battery was dead.  I wondered if it (Yuasa, three years old) had given up.  The next day, when I tried again, the battery charger lit up as if there was now a connection, but the battery seemed not to take any charge. 

The following day, when my mechanic came to pick up the car to fix the exhaust, there was power but not enough for the starter motor.  He put his battery pack on and the car immediately fired up.  He was going to replace the battery but the car was fine all day, and started a few times perfectly normally.  I used the car two days later and it drove beautifully without missing a beat.  Everything worked.  But this morning, after another four days, there are no interior lights, nothing from the ignition, no lights.  It's as good as dead again, except that the red security light is flashing normally.

I assume that if the battery's faulty, the power wouldn't go but come back again.  Ditto with a blown fuse.  So could it be a connection issue?

 

Sounds like you need a new Battery. Part# 28800-YZZZL £130 from LPD website - £150 from local Lexus dealer but they may match the LPD price.
 

[BigBoomer]

Once it has been flattened, your Battery is damaged, and the more times it goes flat, the more damage is caused.
You will almost certainly need a new Battery.

Don't leave your car unused for more than a couple of weeks without plugging in a Battery maintainer.
These cars use a little power even when switched off, and the Battery will also self-discharge over a few months, so you need to keep the Battery charged if not using it even semi-regularly or only doing short runs. I use a cheap £20 7Amp (90W) maintainer that is plugged in in the garage. I just extended the 12v cables to reach where I park the car and fitted a good quality plug and socket to make it easy to plug in & unplug.

If you cannot do that, then you can get solar powered chargers that will do the job. Anything over 10W will do the job but 20W is better.
Ideally put the solar cell inside the window that gets direct sunlight (south facing). They even work on cloudy days, just less efficiently.
I wired one into a friends car with a simple plug so when he parks the car he just puts the panel in the windscreen and plugs it in.

[Scribe]

I've disconnected the Battery, connected the charger, and switched it on.  The green 'charged' light immediately glows, instead of the orange 'charging' one.  And the gauge reads 100% charged. But no juice to the car's systems when I reconnect the Battery.  

Could the Battery be knackered but show a full charge?  It's still under warranty, and my garage will replace it.  But I need to be able to start the car to get it to the garage.  And if that's not the problem...???  It feels more like a connection issue.

[Malc1]

On my 95 Ls400 ( over Covid time ) I had a mountain of unfathomable irritant electrical issues for a few weeks ……. they all seemingly simply resolved themselves …….. I didn’t change the Yuasa Battery ….. which I still have 

BUT I do now use both cars every other day if I can …… they don’t sit idle and vegetate pleased to say ……. If it’s not your Battery …… get your garage to test it out  ……. then it’s down to “ old age “ and general electricals  deterioration maybe 

And I’m of no use to you I’m afraid 🤔

We’re running quite ancient cars and lots of stuff is in uncharted territory sadly !

Other marques have long gone to the scrapper 

Malc 

[Scribe]

Thanks Malc.  I know I don't use the car enough.  But half the time, when I want to, it has no electrics.  So it's not much use to me any more.

The Battery has gone flat a few times, but when it was last checked it still had 93% efficiency.  Happy to try a new one, but I don't understand how something so simple could present so many weird symptoms.  And I'm running out of patience with it.

[Malc1]

Good idea to keep her running ok if you can ……. have you noticed the prices of our Ls400s on classic car sales sites these past days ? 
we’re sitting on electrical gremlins worth a small fortune maybe 👍

Malc 

[Razor61]

2 hours ago, Scribe said:

The battery has gone flat a few times, but when it was last checked it still had 93% efficiency.  Happy to try a new one, but I don't understand how something so simple could present so many weird symptoms.  And I'm running out of patience

In my experience, for what it’s worth, start with a new Battery and take it from there. Problem may be gone after a new Battery but, as said earlier, keep the Battery on trickle charge when not in use for a while.
I had a Saab 900 Turbo with starting/battery issues, charged it and car started then issue reoccurred. Local mechanic said some sort of drain on the Battery and killing it and would take some investigation. Took the car to an auto electrician, he checked ‘things’ and said Battery is knackered, didn’t take him long either. Fitted new Battery and problem gone. Ever since then, any signs of bad/lazy starting or flat Battery in a morning……..new Battery fitted and all ok again.

[scythe]

The intermittent nature of the problem - is it one of your Battery connections that's the problem? I'd be tempted to clean the connectors on the Battery, sticky-uppy Battery bits and the connectors, then to check the braided connection to the car's earth. Just an idea.  And cheaper than a new Battery, though you may find you need one of those too.

And as Jon said above ...

https://www.screwfix.com/p/lap-dc-digital-multimeter-600v/793RT?kpid=793RT&cm_mmc=Google-_-Datafeed-_-Tools?kpid=KINASEKPID&cm_mmc=Google-_-TOKEN1-_-TOKEN2&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwncWvBhD_ARIsAEb2HW-qR-dz8L3Z2fRvSxmXw8o-hG6P8Zey52uSWt3apOoyZb-8Qerc8boaAr0AEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds#product_additional_details_container

... this will help to show what's going on, then when you've finished with it sell it for £15 to a mate.

: o ) 

[Malc1]

5 hours ago, Scribe said:

Thanks Malc.  I know I don't use the car enough.  But half the time, when I want to, it has no electrics.  So it's not much use to me any more.

The battery has gone flat a few times, but when it was last checked it still had 93% efficiency.  Happy to try a new one, but I don't understand how something so simple could present so many weird symptoms.  And I'm running out of patience with it.

Simply suggest you replace the Battery with a new Yuasa 5yr warranty one and watch all your electric gremlins runaway for the next 6/7 years ……. Assuming your 3 years young one existing isn’t to be replaced under warranty somehow 

Good luck

Malc 

whatever, don’t get a Varta Battery. My Honda Legend Varta replaced by the RAC a few years ago failed this past winter and replaced free by the RAC when called out to attend the breakdown ….. the dead Battery under warranty was supplied and fitted new by the RAC 

Malc 

[Jon Dee]

8 hours ago, Scribe said:

I've disconnected the battery, connected the charger, and switched it on.  The green 'charged' light immediately glows, instead of the orange 'charging' one.  And the gauge reads 100% charged. But no juice to the car's systems when I reconnect the battery.  

Car batteries are not not a "deep cycle" design, and don't like being being run flat. In particular they don't like being run dead flat. Do that a few times and the Battery will lose a substantial percentage of its ability to hold a charge. What then happens is that the Battery only takes a "surface charge"... shows that it is fully charged as soon as you hook your charger up or use a multimeter across the terminals. Put it back in the car and it will give up on the first cranking attempt. 

I had this problem, and managed to salvage the Battery for a while by running a "rejuvenation" program on my charger, and then load testing it with 12V bulb to see how long it would power the bulb before dropping the voltage down to 10V. Fortunately, the car I had at the time had a protection function that progressively turned off systems that drained power as the Battery voltage dropped towards 10V while the car was OFF. This function ensured that there was always enough left in the Battery to ensure it would start, unless it was left too long without the car being driven for a decent distance.

But forever after, if the car hadn't been used for a few days, when I went to use it the clock would be off. That meant that that the Battery storage capacity had been seriously reduced, and required a very expensive replacement. Sold the car with the old Battery but did warn the buyer to either use it daily or get a maintainer if it was not going to be used for a week. 

Cheers...

[Scribe]

Thanks all for your comments.  I had the negative earth to the body replaced last year, which cured the problem of the car going dead, sometimes when driving (not pleasant or safe).  The Battery terminals were replaced at the same time.

Jon, your comment makes sense because there's every indication that the Battery is fully charged when it obviously isn't.  What I don't understand is how a low Battery level can cause such differing issues. Sometimes it struggles to crank the starter, but other times the car can be started several times a day, for example when going from shop to shop, and then give up overnight.  Once (in wintertime), when I hadn't used the car for a while, one headlight and the central locking didn't work.  Both problems disappeared when the Battery was fully charged.  It's like the electrics go haywire, but not always in the same way.  This is why the car scares me - the problems seem illogical.  I'm sure one of you tecchies out there could explain it all, but I'm mystified by the whole business.

Maybe I should remind myself that the rest of the car is tough as old boots, and that most newer cars can also have electrical problems.  And maybe I should think of batteries as having a 3-year life.

[Malc1]

Was the ( original ) Battery a 3yr warranty one ? 

Malc 

[Jon Evans]

@Scribe maybe the problem lies somewhere else in the electrical system - one of the earth points, or corrosion in the fuse box(es)

[Jon Dee]

3 hours ago, Scribe said:

And maybe I should think of batteries as having a 3-year life.

Ever since I have had two cars, one daily driver and one "hobby" car that seldom gets driven, I have had Battery problems. I get 5 to 8 years out of a Battery in a daily driver, but different hobby cars have killed batteries in less than a year. The only solution I have found is to use the car more often to keep the Battery charge up, or use a maintainer. Presently I have a solar panel charger set up inside the garage window, and hook that up to the car whenever it is parked up for more than a couple of days. Haven't had to jump start the car or replace a Battery for the last five years :)  

There are multiple possible reasons for electrical "gremlins". But if all systems on the car work correctly when the engine is running and the alternator is charging, then low Battery voltage/capacity is the most likely cause of problems when the car has been parked up for a day or two.  This chart will give you an idea of the resting voltage you should read when using your multimeter between the posts on your Battery. A new Battery will get you into the green zone, but a Battery that has been used for a while will spend most of its time hovering between the green and orange zones... at least that is what I have found !!! 

Cheers...

[Scribe]

Yes, the Lexus is my hobby car, not my daily driver, and I very rarely drive more than 20 miles in any direction.  So it doesn't get long runs any more.  I do charge the Battery from time to time, but it's gone flat a few times, so maybe it's damaged.  I'm going to get a new one, then try to use the car more.  I guess it does no harm to disconnect the Battery if the car isn't going to be used for a few weeks?

Malc, the current Yuasa Battery has a 4-year warranty so I may be able to return it.

[Malc1]

27 minutes ago, Scribe said:

Yes, the Lexus is my hobby car, not my daily driver, and I very rarely drive more than 20 miles in any direction.  So it doesn't get long runs any more.  I do charge the battery from time to time, but it's gone flat a few times, so maybe it's damaged.  I'm going to get a new one, then try to use the car more.  I guess it does no harm to disconnect the battery if the car isn't going to be used for a few weeks?

Malc, the current Yuasa battery has a 4-year warranty so I may be able to return it.

I would get the Battery changed under the warranty if at all possible and THEN everything might just settle down and work fully for you   ...  maybe pay the difference for a replacement 5yr warranty Yuasa 

My two Ls400s I use every other day to make sure everythings " mobile " and happy  .......  I have no preference for either, they have foibles but work very well .....  they're both amazing daily drivers

I wouldn't hesitate to do a 5000 mile trip in either after a quick top-up service 

Malc

[Razor61]

59 minutes ago, Scribe said:

I guess it does no harm to disconnect the battery if the car isn't going to be used for a few weeks?

I'd advise against that, the ECU will lose it's 'learned' settings and other memory settings on the car, i.e. radio stations, steering wheel and seat settings.
Battery maintainer/trickle charger is the way to go, you can use the 'tails', connect them permanently to the Battery terminals and plug/unplug the charger as needed.
I use an Optimate 4, there are others of course, and have used it for many years without any issue and you can get Solar powered ones as well.

[Scribe]

Thanks Paul.  My charger has 3 settings: trickle, slow and 'jump start'.  I've only used the second of these, when the Battery has lost most or all of its charge.  It charges up within a few hours.  Do you suggest I leave it on 'trickle' most of the time, just to keep it topped up, and disconnect when I use the car?

[Malc1]

Andrew hi. What on earth is your other car that you’re prepared to relegate your wondrous Ls400 to the purgatory of gremlins …….. when every alternate day use of the Ls400 might keep her in permanent reliable fine fettle ! 

Malc 

[Scribe]

Good question Malc.  I also have a 1999 Honda Accord V6 Coupe, currently SORN and about to be MOT'd and re-taxed.  That's my normal daily drive.  Thirstier than the Lexus but easier to park and more straightforward, with no electrical silliness to deal with.  And a Peugeot 207CC, currently my daily drive but otherwise referred to as the girly hairdresser car (no offence intended).  I've often wanted to replace it with an MX-5 but I'm too tall for one.

[Malc1]

Our 2006 Honda Legend 3.5ltr gets used most days too. ….. her car of course ……. Being regularly and frequently used is the key to longevity and less trouble methinks 👌

Too many nice cars to use is a problem with not enough driving days in the week maybe 🤔 

Malc