Theft via CanBus

[JeffL]

Does anyone on here know from which date NX and RX models were fitted with CanBus? Or do they all have it?

Just thinking of buying something pre-CanBus if possible. 

If a vehicle has CanBus does that automatically mean that it is vulnerable to theft, i.e. do all vehicles with CanBus have wiring easily accessible and if so is that always via the front wheel arch?

Also, I'm wondering how old does an NX or RX have to be for it not to be of interest to thieves?

According to a Google search the first car to have CanBus fitted was a Mercedes W140 in 1991.    In February 1986 Robert Bosch GmbH introduced the Controller Area Network (CAN) serial bus system at the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) congress. It was the hour of birth for one of the most successful network protocols ever !!!!!!!!!!!

[Spock66]

1 hour ago, JeffL said:

Does anyone on here know from which date NX and RX models were fitted with CanBus? Or do they all have it?

As you say Canbus has been around for many years and it's fine for controlling lights and other components etc, the problem is when it is also used for controlling critical car security functions.  It was never designed to be a secure protocol, so major drop-off from Lexus to use it for this purpose.  For the RX I believe it's only the 4th Gen (all years and all variants) that have the specific vulnerability. For the NX I think it's more complex as to which models are vulnerable.

[ColinBarber]

All Lexus vehicles in the last 20 years have multiple CAN buses. The issue is specifically CAN bus enabled headlights which allows easy access to the wiring when the vehicle is locked because inner wings don't really existing these days, just plastic wheel arch liners.

 

All NXs (although pre-facelift may be more difficult to access the wiring - facelift models for definite) and all RX series IV (2016-2022) are vulnerable.

[JeffL]

Interesting that pre-facelift NXs might be more difficult to access the wiring. Why do you think that might be the case Colin? 

 

 

[PDM]

10 minutes ago, JeffL said:

Interesting that pre-facelift NXs might be more difficult to access the wiring. Why do you think that might be the case Colin? 

 

 

There was one post on here where a dealer has suggested as such but I'm not sure if since then Colin has any more info. 

Paul

[ColinBarber]

Normally I wouldn't accept what a dealer says but I've not seen any reported pre-facelift NX thefts discussed here on LOC so there is something different.

The headlights have CAN bus wiring to all years in the wiring diagrams I've seen, for all three types of headlight so either wiring is different (maybe difficult to reach on one or two of the headlight designs) or the theft device doesn't support the older ones (or the body ECU/gateway ECU doesn't get tricked on the older model).

[Ken R]

My understanding is that the latest generation of NX (22 MY onwards) and 5th generation RX aren't vulnerable.

[Hayzee]

9 hours ago, Ken R said:

My understanding is that the latest generation of NX (22 MY onwards) and 5th generation RX aren't vulnerable.

That's my understanding too Ken. I read that this is because Lexus implemented Toyota Security Key (TSK) a unique encrypted key which the ECU's require before executing any CAN commands. This means that the physical key has to be present.

However we don't know when or if the criminal fraternity will overcome it. It doesn't stop the scum doing damage to the wheel arch and bumper finding out though.

[JeffL]

So the questions for me now are: Do the criminals know that the pre-facelift NX is not an easy target? and will the insurance companies fix their premiums accordingly? It would be interesting to hear from owners of pre-facelift NXs on this forum. 

[ColinBarber]

1 hour ago, JeffL said:

Do the criminals know that the pre-facelift NX is not an easy target?

I'd say yes as we aren't getting reports from owners here on theft, or attempted thefts. 

1 hour ago, JeffL said:

insurance companies fix their premiums accordingly?

We have LV refusing to cover CT200h that aren't even vulnerable, so I feel pre and post facelift NXs might be all tarred with the same brush with some insurance companies. You would need to shop around.

[RXtoNX]

1 hour ago, JeffL said:

 will the insurance companies fix their premiums accordingly?  

Insurance companies will fix their premiums to ensure & guarantee the best possible outcome for themselves. In reality, despite what they allege they do, they no longer insure risk!

[Jim1977]

I’ve just insured my NX with LV for £405 for the year. It’s a 2021 so facelifted gen 1, ie Canbus vulnerable. Insurance issues must be dependant on postcode.

[Hayzee]

24 minutes ago, Jim1977 said:

I’ve just insured my NX with LV for £405 for the year. It’s a 2021 so facelifted gen 1, ie Canbus vulnerable. Insurance issues must be dependant on postcode.

......And age 

[BillSt]

Thatcham group https://www.thatcham.org/pf/group-rating/ 

The latest version is restricted but here is Mar ‘22 https://www.thatcham.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/March-2022-OE-1.pdf

You may be able to edit the above address 😉 

 

 

.

 

[ArneT]

On 2/20/2024 at 7:56 PM, Jim1977 said:

I’ve just insured my NX with LV for £405 for the year. It’s a 2021 so facelifted gen 1, ie Canbus vulnerable. Insurance issues must be dependant on postcode.

@Jim1977 I think some of the forum members from higher risk areas may start parking their car outside your house to get that renewal price?! 

[Jim1977]

10 hours ago, ArneT said:

@Jim1977 I think some of the forum members from higher risk areas may start parking their car outside your house to get that renewal price?! 

Mine is the third NX in the cul de sac! While £405 does sound cheap compared to some, last year my price was £225 (Honda CRV). The renewal advised that had I had the Lexus for the full year it would have been £235, so £405 actually represents a sizeable % increase. 

[Hayzee]

10 minutes ago, Jim1977 said:

Mine is the third NX in the cul de sac! While £405 does sound cheap compared to some, last year my price was £225 (Honda CRV). The renewal advised that had I had the Lexus for the full year it would have been £235, so £405 actually represents a sizeable % increase. 

James ...I'm not in a high risk post code, but my last year's premium with LV was £530 for my 450h which is in a higher insurance group than the 300h mainly due to it being a PHEV and 300HP, plus my premium would be higher due to me being a lot older than you (if Jim1977 means you're midish 40's).

My renewal isn't till June but I ran it through the comparison sites and are currently seeing quotes around the £900 mark. I have max no claims (nothing claimed for 20 years or so) and a clean licence. In my case I'm pretty sure hitting a certain age band has been a significant catalyst (very unfair to my mind), a 70% premium increase year to year seems incredulous.

[EdW]

I thought it might be an age thing last year when renewal went from £345 to £645, as both of us turned 75.  This year insurance declined altogether. 

[Jim1977]

1 hour ago, Hayzee said:

James ...I'm not in a high risk post code, but my last year's premium with LV was £530 for my 450h which is in a higher insurance group than the 300h mainly due to it being a PHEV and 300HP, plus my premium would be higher due to me being a lot older than you (if Jim1977 means you're midish 40's).

My renewal isn't till June but I ran it through the comparison sites and are currently seeing quotes around the £900 mark. I have max no claims (nothing claimed for 20 years or so) and a clean licence. In my case I'm pretty sure hitting a certain age band has been a significant catalyst (very unfair to my mind), a 70% premium increase year to year seems incredulous.

That’s ridiculous I feel your pain. Yes 1977 is my birth year, so still in the sweet spot of not too young or old. My dad has seen similar hikes due to his age. In fact, I experimented with adding him as a named driver to see if it affected the premium for the better (in the past it had and meant he could always use my car if needed) but this time round adding him would have taken the premium to well over £600!

[Hayzee]

2 hours ago, EdW said:

I thought it might be an age thing last year when renewal went from £345 to £645, as both of us turned 75.  This year insurance declined altogether. 

Ed.....did you get some other quotes?

[SA1]

My 450+ insurance went from £370 to £790 this year. Full no claims and no incidents. When I checked on comparison sites the cheapest was over £900 so took the renewal

Not great but if this trend keeps up it might be time to start hunting around for a mid 90’s BMW with no tech on it as I believe it is the lead time and cost of parts are a significant factor to the increase

[Hayzee]

32 minutes ago, SA1 said:

I believe it is the lead time and cost of parts are a significant factor to the increase

You're no doubt right, but a 100%+ increase in premium is crazy.

[Serguei]

4 hours ago, SA1 said:

Not great but if this trend keeps up it might be time to start hunting around for a mid 90’s BMW with no tech on

I don’t think it is going to help as insurance rates are going up across all cars and it is not specific to your model. It is not even caused by theft, but by repair to be more expensive  

You might be driving a 90’s BMW but you can still hit a Tesla and your insurance provider will have to pay for it. 

[Warthog001]

I have just sold my '96 BMW 440i with only 22k miles as it was becoming increasingly unreliable and the repair bills were mounting. 

4 hours ago, SA1 said:

My 450+ insurance went from £370 to £790 this year. Full no claims and no incidents. When I checked on comparison sites the cheapest was over £900 so took the renewal

Not great but if this trend keeps up it might be time to start hunting around for a mid 90’s BMW with no tech on it as I believe it is the lead time and cost of parts are a significant factor to the increase

I have just sold my '96 BMW 440i with only 22k miles as it was becoming increasingly unreliable and the repair bills were mounting. Average £1k per visit - 3 visits last year. Probably cheaper to accept the Insurance hike!!! 

I am loving the NX 450h+ F-Sport - miles better than the Beemer.

[Warthog001]

Sorry, please ignore my last post - senior moment - mine was a 2016 BMW.  A 30 year old car would probably have been more reliable!!!!