Tappet sound

[Newbie777]

Hello,

I own a  Ls600hl MY 2010, with 222k miles.

I noticed today when I had the engine bay open a slight but not very loud tapetting sound coming from the front nearside of the engine bay, not far behind headlights.

I think it more prominent when the car is cold as I could not hear it when I checked when the car was warm.

I do not hear it either when I am in the car.

Recently, although not due,  I asked my mechanic to change the oil and oil filter,it was 5w 30 fully synthetic ( not sure which brand as he supplied it) and a genuine lexus filter which I supplied (the oil looked light brown than yellow).

Car drives fine, is not sluggish, gets to ideal temp and does not overheat, coolant all fine, no warning lights etc etc.

Not sure if it has been like that for a while or due to the oil change perhaps?

Is it normal? Some bearings? 

Thanks

[Newbie777]

An update this morning.

The tapetting noise is not apparent upon startup but after a few minutes.

The noise comes on for 10 or 15 seconds, goes away and then comes back on after 30 seconds, some vacuum pipe perhaps?

[BigBoomer]

Use a mechanics stethoscope to isolate where the sound is coming from. Could be so many different things.

[Notamech]

Im not sure about the ls600h but i had this on my is300h and looked into it. Turns out its normal and is the direct injection injectors. So a lot of modern Toyota engines have both port as well as direct injection and when the car switches to direct injection those injectors make a tapping/ticking sound as part of their normal operation.

[Newbie777]

12 hours ago, BigBoomer said:

Use a mechanics stethoscope to isolate where the sound is coming from. Could be so many different things.

I don't have one, but can do a video and you can the issue, thanks

 

[Newbie777]

12 hours ago, Notamech said:

Im not sure about the ls600h but i had this on my is300h and looked into it. Turns out its normal and is the direct injection injectors. So a lot of modern Toyota engines have both port as well as direct injection and when the car switches to direct injection those injectors make a tapping/ticking sound as part of their normal operation.

Brill that's helpful, I will be sending a video hope that makes it easier, thanks

[Newbie777]

2 minutes ago, Newbie777 said:

Brill that's helpful, I will be sending a video hope that makes it easier, thanks

Please video attached, the noise eventually goes away and sometimes is not there at all

[Malc1]

My thoughts might be too simplistic for one’s modern day thinking …….. BUT  you had reservations a while back about your engine oil grade …… in olden times when conventional engines developed tappet noise from ostensibly” engine wear “, a slightly denser grade oil relieved the tapper  noise issue 🤔

Malc 

[Newbie777]

1 hour ago, Malc1 said:

My thoughts might be too simplistic for one’s modern day thinking …….. BUT  you had reservations a while back about your engine oil grade …… in olden times when conventional engines developed tappet noise from ostensibly” engine wear “, a slightly denser grade oil relieved the tapper  noise issue 🤔

Malc 

Thanks Malc,

As agreed I used the 5w30 oil rather than the newer 0w20.

I think oil used was ACEA comparableand one that is recommended in the service manual, happy to change the oil to lexus 5w 30 and do another servibut strange the noise is only coming from the nearside and only happening now and then.It may have been here before the oil change too.

[ColinBarber]

As has been stated above, get a mechanics stethoscope to try and locate. It could be a cracked exhaust manifold, injector, fuel pump, timing chain - not worth speculating until you can narrow down the area where it is coming from.

https://www.screwfix.com/p/silverline-154006-mechanics-stethoscope/175fu

 

[Notamech]

Maybe it's just me but i can hear a rattle not a ticking / tapping sound. Mine was a rhythmic tick. To me that sound from the video sounds more like a loose heat shield or something. Maybe remove the plastic cover and have a look. I think it does warrant further investigation. 

 

[Spock66]

I agree sounds like something loose and rattling.

I also think any issues with oil viscosity would be a constant sound rather than intermittent as is happening here.

[BigBoomer]

The fact that it switches on and off leads me to think it is something that only operates part time.
It switches on and off too often for the suspension compressor and I believe that the Lexus air-con compressors are non-clutch type so not likely to be that either.
A manifold leak would be constant but as Notamech stated above it could be the engine switching between manifold injectors and direct injectors.
I think that will need a Lexus dealer to diagnose what may even be a normal sound for the LS600h.

[Malc1]

Wot a conundrum 🤔

Malc 

[Newbie777]

7 hours ago, Spock66 said:

I agree sounds like something loose and rattling.

I also think any issues with oil viscosity would be a constant sound rather than intermittent as is happening here.

I am thinking the same, at first I though perhaps teh previous oils were 0w20, but driving round the fuel economy is slightly better, not worse if I had used different oils

[Newbie777]

4 hours ago, BigBoomer said:

The fact that it switches on and off leads me to think it is something that only operates part time.
It switches on and off too often for the suspension compressor and I believe that the Lexus air-con compressors are non-clutch type so not likely to be that either.
A manifold leak would be constant but as Notamech stated above it could be the engine switching between manifold injectors and direct injectors.
I think that will need a Lexus dealer to diagnose what may even be a normal sound for the LS600h.

Thank you I like the process of elimination, my issue when I took to the garage I I only had 10 mins and the sound was not there!

I think I will start with air filter and also check if there is anything that has come offnor loose. Also I feel it is a tppet sound with a vacuum.

For now I will not pursue the oil change.

I will look to see if there any fault codes and go back to the garage.

Like the worse or good part is when the noise is not there it sounds perfect and also goes into electric mode perfectly too, so pretty annoying or good it is not persistent.

I'm not a mechanic but if I was I would say it is starving oil somewhere and that where it is not lubricating well or enough thats why it becomes  louder, not sure at all though but the car has 222k miles

[Newbie777]

4 hours ago, Malc1 said:

Wot a conundrum 🤔

Malc 

Complicated cars Malc you are lucky yours are straight forward but great v8s!

[Malc1]

Moderner technology certainly has its drawbacks ……. and huge benefits …….. that’s why people have plenty of money to change their cars at appropriate ages and wear times 😄

222k miles and 14 years ……. most “ ordinary “  cars are almost at the scrapper by now …….and the original owner is either on his subsequent 5th or 6th new limo car or just passed into that great cloud in the sky 😄

Me an ancient Ls400 owner …… I can barely remember not having one …… prior main cars memories pass into oblivion it seems …… just cannot envision getting myself into the ownership pickle of a car so complex as your Ls600 or ……. Bentley …….. 

Good luck with it all, I’m sure this issue will resolve ok ……. Then on to the next 😂

Malc

I watch all your Posts with quite some interest for sure 

[ColinBarber]

17 hours ago, BigBoomer said:

A manifold leak would be constant

Manifold leaks aren't always constant. They often occur on start up but once hot the metal expands and seals the crack, the IS-F can suffer this as an example. However it wouldn't typically come back again so is unlikely in this situation.

[Newbie777]

11 hours ago, Malc1 said:

Moderner technology certainly has its drawbacks ……. and huge benefits …….. that’s why people have plenty of money to change their cars at appropriate ages and wear times 😄

222k miles and 14 years ……. most “ ordinary “  cars are almost at the scrapper by now …….and the original owner is either on his subsequent 5th or 6th new limo car or just passed into that great cloud in the sky 😄

Me an ancient Ls400 owner …… I can barely remember not having one …… prior main cars memories pass into oblivion it seems …… just cannot envision getting myself into the ownership pickle of a car so complex as your Ls600 or ……. Bentley …….. 

Good luck with it all, I’m sure this issue will resolve ok ……. Then on to the next 😂

Malc

I watch all your Posts with quite some interest for sure 

Thanks Malc,

You are right, people have issues and go to another car.

Me am not too worried, it's a V8 first and engine and not hybrid Battery related. If it is the Bentley then you are right a big headache and big money, no easy way out.

I will look at this step by step,  as there are a few options.

I think I also watch for your comments too, it's great to help each other, but also to respect each other, sometimes people don't like my comments as I am a bit controversial, but my approach is never to upset anyone in any way.

 

[Newbie777]

1 hour ago, ColinBarber said:

Manifold leaks aren't always constant. They often occur on start up but once hot the metal expands and seals the crack, the IS-F can suffer this as an example. However it wouldn't typically come back again so is unlikely in this situation.

Thanks, 

The noise does not come up at startup or there all the time, yes it does occur when the car is warm, but then sometimes it's not there at all. And no am not making it up as you can hear from the video.😂

[Newbie777]

7 hours ago, Newbie777 said:

Thanks, 

The noise does not come up at startup or there all the time, yes it does occur when the car is warm, but then sometimes it's not there at all. And no am not making it up as you can hear from the video.😂

On 2/13/2024 at 7:08 AM, Malc1 said:

My thoughts might be too simplistic for one’s modern day thinking …….. BUT  you had reservations a while back about your engine oil grade …… in olden times when conventional engines developed tappet noise from ostensibly” engine wear “, a slightly denser grade oil relieved the tapper  noise issue 🤔

Malc 

Thanks Malc,

As agreed I used the 5w30 oil rather than the newer 0w20.

I think oil used was ACEA comparableand one that is recommended in the service manual, happy to change the oil to lexus 5w 30 and do another servibut strange the noise is only coming from the nearside and only happening now and then.It may have been here before the oil change too.

[Newbie777]

Interesting comments from another thread on engine oil..

2/13/2024 at 1:40 PM, Notamech said:

I feel like Toyota recommend 0w20 for hybrids for a reason. 5w30 may be great for a regular gas / diesel powered engine that are on most of the time. The hybrids keep shutting off the engine so on a single city drive you engine starts and stops several times and needs thinner faster flowing oil when it starts back up. Personally I would stick with 0w20.

Hybrids are a bit quirky with their fluid requirements.  E.g you have to use a different non conductive compressor oil for the a/c. I think its best to stick with manufacturer's recommendations on oil grade.

 

That's actually makes sense and the thicker oil may actually be the issue? lexus recommends this from 2010 models and mine is a 2010, Shane I don't have the info on the last three oils used, but have a feeling it was 0w20!!

Thoughts please?

[ColinBarber]

21 minutes ago, Newbie777 said:

That's actually makes sense and the thicker oil may actually be the issue? lexus recommends this from 2010 models and mine is a 2010, Shane I don't have the info on the last three oils used, but have a feeling it was 0w20!!

Thoughts please?

Hybrids are designed for optimum fuel economy, hence the engines use thin oil (0W-20 in your case, but the latest models are down to 0W-8 now). But this comes at a cost of potentially higher wear and more noise - just moving from 0W-20 to 5W-30 isn't going to introduce intermittent tapping, if anything it should make the engine quieter - unless your oil ways are severely clogged and therefore you would be best to use a good quality engine flush to clear out any debris. 5W-30 is an approved grade for your engine:

But as I've said previously, unless you know where the noise is coming from you may be debating something that is completely irrelevant to your issue.

[Newbie777]

4 hours ago, ColinBarber said:

Hybrids are designed for optimum fuel economy, hence the engines use thin oil (0W-20 in your case, but the latest models are down to 0W-8 now). But this comes at a cost of potentially higher wear and more noise - just moving from 0W-20 to 5W-30 isn't going to introduce intermittent tapping, if anything it should make the engine quieter - unless your oil ways are severely clogged and therefore you would be best to use a good quality engine flush to clear out any debris. 5W-30 is an approved grade for your engine:

But as I've said previously, unless you know where the noise is coming from you may be debating something that is completely irrelevant to your issue.

Thanks, I work away from home and don't take the cars, so when I am home, I will get this looked into.

From what I can recall the tapetting noise is coming from near the oil cap. Does not  occur when car is cold and does go away and apparent when it is electric mode only.