Century to overtop Lexus in Toyota line-up — report

[MartinH]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterlyon/2024/01/21/toyota-creates-ultra-luxury-brand-above-lexus-and-its-called-century/?sh=3b7238663399

[Malc1]

Yes, I read this the other day too …… an historic Toyota brand name for the Top o t’ Range Toyota car used by Japan Govt Ministers etc 

Might buy an old one now 🤔 and will probably outlast my Ls400s too 😂

Malc 

[Spock66]

If it is launched in the UK I can't see Toyota setting up a 3rd dealership network so most likely they would integrate it with Lexus but as a premium model, bit like Mercedes and Maybach.

[Jgtcracer]

I can’t see it doing particularly well in Europe at all to be honest….

I’d Love to be wrong but If it is for sale in the UK it’s going to be in really small numbers and a few years down the line it will discontinued.

Stick to what you know and do it really well.  That market is really hard to break into, at that price people are buying a brand/image, not a car…..

[Linas.P]

To be fair Lexus is kind of fading away. Hard to say what it will become, but it is increasingly similar to Toyota.

From true Lexus models there is only LC left. I guess LS could be considered "true" Lexus because Mirai used Lexus platform rather than other way around (although platform being owned by same parent company makes this point is kind of moot). It also could be argued RX does not have direct equivalent in Toyota range, but all other Lexus models nowadays are just Toyota with lipstick:

NX = RAV4

ES = Avalon

UX = CH-R

LBX = Yaris Cross

GX = 4 Runner

LX = Landcruiser

CT = Auris

Now not all cars are bad, and some provide extensive improvements - like GX550 is great looking mid-size SUV, NX is quite a lot more premium than RAV4, but importantly RAV4 was fundamentally strong platform, so it is good car... but otherwise Lexus is becoming just top trim in Toyota line-up, rather than standalone Luxury Brand.

When one is buying BMW, it isn't just some Opel badged differently and with more leather, same for Merc... I have always considered Audi as less luxurious than other "premium" brands simply because it shared a lot with VW, but even then Audi at least option of their Quattro system (with caveats), also Audi get's some unique performance engines that are not shared with VW, also also - Audi sometimes shares platforms with Porsche now... but Lexus really just takes Toyota model, changes some angles and creases in the body panels, adds more leather, adds worse navigation system with more confusing controls, adds better sound system and that is about all. All Lexus cars now get's identical engines with identical power as their Toyota counterparts and they are even slower, because they are heavier. They don't even try any arbitrary power restriction marketing like Audi, where same engine in Audi get's 320HP, in VW 280HP and in Skoda 265HP... I hate that in VW group products, but at least there is perceived benefit of having Audi + Quattro (even if it is haldex based). Whereas doing blind test in Lexus vs. Toyota it would be hard to tell the difference. Even pricing wise the gap between Lexus and Toyota is shrinking, Toyota is going more upmarket, Lexus is going more downmarket. Take NX, RAV4, BMW X1 and X3... at first it seems like RAV4 goes more against X1 and NX more against X3, but then upper trims of RAV4 actually costs more than lower trims of X3 and NX. And generally even starting price of Lexus vs Toyota is much closer. On BMW there is clear distinction X1 starts at 34k, X3 at 46k, but on RAV4 is 38k and NX is 43k. No X1 ever cost more than X3, yet as I said RAV4 can easily cost more than entry level NX or BMW X3. I really don't know why, but Toyota just does not try to position Lexus higher.

Whereas Century has always been highly regarded and totally different car in Japan, I kind of doubt it will ever leave Japan, but I guess that is decision Toyota made - they are not making Lexus their flagship brand, no Toyota is the flagship brand itself. Lexus is losing relevance when Toyota itself is becoming premium brand nowadays, and they reaffirming that statement with Century. 

[Malc1]

If Toyota could get UK Govt ministers a fleet of Century limos then that would help promote the new/old marque ……. presumably supply free for the free promotion ……. saving the Exchequer lots of £££££ 😇

Malc 

[Linas.P]

Usually such deal would only make sense if Toyota had Century cars that could be sold for general public, but they don't, so it would not make much sense. That said - it would be interesting to see royal family or government using them, quite good value also me thinks... certainly better than Jaguars and Range Rovers.

[Spock66]

10 hours ago, Malc1 said:

If Toyota could get UK Govt ministers a fleet of Century limos then that would help promote the new/old marque

Apparently the UK government purchased the last 50 or so of the Rover P5b's and kept them in storage until needed which is why they were seen in use many years after production had ended.

[GrumpyCat]

Quite correct, as a previous owner of a Coupe. Sir Edward Heath was PM when car production ended in 1973 & I've got pictures of Margaret Thatcher still using one in 1979!

[Malc1]

Always admired that Rover and they seem to be v. expensive these days …… think the Ls400 is a more robust car though …… the Century would be much better still and Rishi / Kier might be engulfed in the sumptuous seating as they wend their way to important meetings of the Union(s) 😂

Malc 

[Newbie777]

This brand and model will sell in small amounts in the USA. However the biggest market is China and if you know the Chinese they love a great brand first, so again not sure about the sales here either.

[Malc1]

20 minutes ago, Newbie777 said:

This brand and model will sell in small amounts in the USA. However the biggest market is China and if you know the Chinese they love a great brand first, so again not sure about the sales here either.

Isn’t there a centuries long. “ hate hate “ relationship between  China and Japan that might just over rule trade ?

Malc 

[Newbie777]

11 minutes ago, Malc1 said:

Isn’t there a centuries long. “ hate hate “ relationship between  China and Japan that might just over rule trade ?

Malc 

Yes I think the same, anyone who is friends with Taiwan is an enemy of China.

JaPan is all about perfection, China is abpit copying, how different these two countries are.

[Tickedon]

On 1/23/2024 at 11:48 PM, Linas.P said:

To be fair Lexus is kind of fading away. Hard to say what it will become, but it is increasingly similar to Toyota.

Not in the UK - Lexus has just had its highest ever annual sales here. 

With EVs, cars become much simpler to build with fewer moving parts - and so we’ll increasingly see more similarities between Toyota and Lexus. Porsche was owned by VAG who still have a controlling stake - I don’t think anyone can say Porsche is any less premium despite increasingly sharing parts & platforms with Audi and more widely. Electric motors and batteries are becoming commodities- the design of cars is thus what is left to distinguish them. 

But maybe it doesn’t bother me so much, because I used to drive an Audi (VAG) and before that a Volvo (Ford)!

[Linas.P]

The problem is not shared parts, there is no such thing as "Lexus Part", they are all stamped "Toyota". The problem is that Lexus overall are becoming just rebadged Toyotas, the quality difference is just not there (expect of models I mentioned), sure you can fit optional ML and leather is nicer in Lexus, but fundamental quality is that of nice economy car, not of affordable luxury car that Lexus of old used to be.

Also Porsche and Audi comparison is now quite correct. Toyota = VW, Audi = Lexus, Porsche in that sense probably would be somewhere near Century. So no Audi does not cheapen Porsche, plus Porsche still maintains unique engines (except in EVs), unique model range and are better quality... and having some Audi part does not really cheapens it too much. Like having "Lexus part" would not cheapen Century. Now this comparison works for cheaper Audi, indeed A3, A2 and later A4 were quite similar to VW Golf/Polo/Passat and indeed that cheapened them. Hence I never considered Audi to be equal to BMW, MB or for that matter Lexus. Sure upper Audi models were comparable and actually good, but that is because they came with engines not fitted to VW and Quattro AWD system, so despite borrowing some of switchgear from VW they made it up elsewhere. Lexus really doesn't make it up anywhere nowadays, identical engines, identical power, list little bit cosmetically different... kind of similar to Acura really, whereas Acura were just rebadged Honda in US. Original Lexus success stems from providing original well above average quality luxury cars, but maintaining Toyota quality and affordable price. That is basically why Lexus succeeded and why Acura or Infinity failed. Now they coming around and basically saying "we are successful anyway, why bother following the techniques that made us successful in the first place".

As for sales - Lexus sales primarily stems from SUV boom, where Lexus do offer some very good and competitive SUVs - NX and RX, those are selling very well, because they are good cars. Even RAV4 won which NX is based is one of best sellers world wide, because it is all around solid vehicle. But in all other segments Lexus is fading away and even in their core segments they are not that much different from Toyota... as I said NX is so closely priced with RAV4, then it is almost possible to call NX a top trim of RAV4 range. Lexus brand itself becoming irrelevant and arguably if Toyota would discontinue it and just sell Lexus cars under Toyota badge they would not lose much. That is what I mean by "fading away".