Is this why Lexus is increasingly attractive to thieves?

[LenT]

Car thieves obviously get ‘Which Car Reports’.

I note that in the Feb 24 edition the Lexus brand yet again tops the Reliability Table of 29 brands in all three car age groups.  In two car age groups (0-4, 10-15) it gets four stars, and in the 5-9 it gets five.

In fact Lexus is the only brand awarded five stars for its reliability in any category.

I suspect it’s partly due to Which that car thieves are now increasingly attracted to Lexus.  After all, if you’ve sold a stolen car to someone, you don’t want them to come looking for you when it keeps breaking down!

[RONNIE W HODGEKINSON]

2 hours ago, LenT said:

Car thieves obviously get ‘Which Car Reports’.

I note that in the Feb 24 edition the Lexus brand yet again tops the Reliability Table of 29 brands in all three car age groups.  In two car age groups (0-4, 10-15) it gets four stars, and in the 5-9 it gets five.

In fact Lexus is the only brand awarded five stars for its reliability in any category.

I suspect it’s partly due to Which that car thieves are now increasingly attracted to Lexus.  After all, if you’ve sold a stolen car to someone, you don’t want them to come looking for you when it keeps breaking down!

Love it Len..!!!

[IS300FSPORT]

Guessing they are shipped to the Middle East or somewhere near there.

The ultimate goal is to get into that container, there is no return after that cargo has sailed away..... 

Insurance are taking the biscuit too making you think is it really worth it.

[Linas.P]

On 1/17/2024 at 12:37 AM, LenT said:

Car thieves obviously get ‘Which Car Reports’.

I note that in the Feb 24 edition the Lexus brand yet again tops the Reliability Table of 29 brands in all three car age groups.  In two car age groups (0-4, 10-15) it gets four stars, and in the 5-9 it gets five.

In fact Lexus is the only brand awarded five stars for its reliability in any category.

I suspect it’s partly due to Which that car thieves are now increasingly attracted to Lexus.  After all, if you’ve sold a stolen car to someone, you don’t want them to come looking for you when it keeps breaking down!

That is interesting idea, but definitely not... 

More reliable cars makes them LESS, not more attractive to thieves... although if I would be thief I would dread to go near Range Rover, if not for fire risk, then for the risk of getting caught, when the piece of shaite inevitable brakes down... 

Lexus cars increasingly became more interesting for thieves, because Lexus is genuinely competitive make when it comes to SUVs, they are genuinely sought after and sells relatively well for Lexus. Secondly - because Lexus (and Toyota) messed-up royally with CANBUS security. Totally unacceptable, both in terms of not considering it, but also in terms of response - the only way here is to recall ALL the cars and encrypt CANBUS (which I assume would require some new computers to be added/replaced and it would be major cost), but they won't do it, so they have pretty much abandoned owners in this regard. That said - we need to understand CANBUS issues is not what makes cars attractive to thieves - they don't care what car it is, they don't steal the cars and then try to figure out how to sell them and how much it is worth. Car thieves simply get salary for doing it, they get told what car is needed, they don't just randomly steal cars based on their liking, nor even based on how easy it is to do it. So it means somebody is asking for NX and RX, either part of whole cars... I am baffled that ES is being stolen, but that is probably my issue, I just don't understand who would want ES and they are not even that popular anyway. My only guess would be - ES300h shares a lot of parts with NX300h, so perhaps that is just an impact from NX being in high demand.

[GMB]

51 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

More reliable cars makes them LESS, not more attractive to thieves

Sounds like an extract from the Alfred. E. Neumann Logic Book. I too don't understand why the ES is a popular target. Maybe because it is just so easy that one might as well take it and sell it for a few quid. What I don't understand is why they don't seem to go for the later IS models which have?? CANbus and look a bit like the ES ( but a bit smaller ) - or do they? No-one can give a definite answer. I think most of them, even the 2017 models that were sold were made on or before 2016. Maybe there aren't enough of them about. Trouble is, the Insurance companies seem to be including the IS in their discrimination against all Lexus cars and refusing/pricing accordingly.

[Linas.P]

2 minutes ago, GMB said:

Sounds like an extract from the Alfred. E. Neumann Logic Book. I too don't understand why the ES is a popular target. Maybe because it is just so easy that one might as well take it and sell it for a few quid. What I don't understand is why they don't seem to go for the later IS models which have?? CANbus and look a bit like the ES ( but a bit smaller ) - or do they? No-one can give a definite answer. I think most of them, even the 2017 models that were sold were made on or before 2016. Maybe there aren't enough of them about. Trouble is, the Insurance companies seem to be including the IS in their discrimination against all Lexus cars and refusing/pricing accordingly.

I think CANBUS issue only exist for specific models with headlights ECU, at least that is my understanding of the issue, so later IS may be similar, but if they don't have that particular type of ECU which has undecrypted CANBUS going to the lights they are fine. IS/RC/GS being older platform I would assume they don't have this issue, even in facelift. Only later (~2018+) ES/NX/RX have it, also perhaps UX and LBX, but being lower end models maybe they didn't get such "advanced" features, also I am not sure if LC is affected by same or similar issue. Maybe being flagship LC got more advanced headlight features ahead of other models (~2016?). 

But again that is the issue with ES - thieves do not care how easy the car is to steal, if nobody needs it they don't need it, so there must be something in ES that interests them, or maybe there is true unknown demand for ES? Maybe middle east? who knows...

As for insurers, I think they will always overprotect themselves, they do not care which particular model is vulnerable, remember they do not care about consumers, they care about making as much profit as possible. So in their mind perhaps - any Lexus 2018+ is high risk, any BEV regardless of the model is fire risk, any BMW 3 or 1 series is risk of idiot owner... so they just group those cars in these blanket black and white categories and they really don't care to find out what exactly is the issue. Insurance being mandatory it means they just found and excuse to increase their profit by 50%, why waste the opportunity? Now naive between us would think insurers are really advanced and they get expert opinions etc. because overpricing insurance would mean losing to competitor who done more research and can insure the model that doesn't have particular issue for more, thus louring the client away. That is just not the case - demand for insurance is inelastic, one is legally forced to have it no matter the cost, there isn't real competition between insurers either, they are all just in for bloodbath. So it is kind of simple - as soon as statistically significant number of claims happens on some vehicle for them to notice, they just blanked that model or brand with higher insurance, I really doubt there is much of sophistication or that they actually care what and why.

[LenT]

30 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

More reliable cars makes them LESS, not more attractive to thieves

Thanks for your comments, Linus, but I’m not sure that it really contradicts my admittedly somewhat ‘tongue in cheek’ observation.

The majority of car theft is now  targeted vehicles stolen to order - either to be sold on or broken for parts.  So it’s driven by demand.

As you rightly say:

36 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Lexus cars increasingly became more interesting for thieves, because Lexus is genuinely competitive make when it comes to SUVs, they are genuinely sought after and sells relatively well for Lexus

Now what contributes to the fact that Lexus cars ‘are genuinely sought after’  is their much lauded reliability - as promoted by the likes of ‘Which’!  

It’s certainly the case that some stolen vehicles are bought by unsuspecting buyers, but I doubt the majority can be unaware of the history of their new, remarkably cheap motor - especially if, as I suppose, such attractive features as the famed Lexus Warranty appear difficult to enforce!

It thus follows that if a Warranty claim is difficult to enforce, then its reliability becomes an important factor in the relationship between car thief and car buyer.  I suspect that this type of buyer is not generally one who seeks redress through the Courts, but will be more inclined to take direct and personal action. 👊

The CANBUS vulnerability also strikes me as a ‘two-edged sword’.  Unless the vehicle is being broken for parts, then the thieves have to repair the damage before anyone is going to buy the car - whether it stays in the UK or is shipped abroad.  Clearly, it can be just as easily stolen again by another set of thieves using the same method - only this time the ‘owner’ may be less inclined to report it!

Worse still, they may come looking for a replacement from their original supplier - and not in the best of moods.

So my advice to car thieves attempting to sell on a stolen Lexus is that it is in their own interests to fit an effective shield to foil further CANBUS attacks in the future.  😊

[ColinBarber]

31 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

IS/RC/GS being older platform I would assume they don't have this issue, even in facelift.

Potentially vulnerable models are ones with CAN bus connectivity into the headlight which includes:

NX

RX series IV

ES

IS facelift (10/2016 on)

RC F

RC any with triple headlights, all from 10/2018

UX

LC

LS

GS facelift (10/2015 on)

GS F

 

Whether they are a target would come down to how accessible the headlight wiring is from the wheel arch and the market for the vehicle/parts. Something like a GS F is going to be difficult to offload without it being noticed and there would be a very limited market for parts. Potentially there is also nuance between the models so the attacking tool doesn't work on all vehicles (yet). Based on info posted by our members here, it seems NX, RX, ES and LC are vulnerable to this attack.

[Linas.P]

22 minutes ago, LenT said:

Now what contributes to the fact that Lexus cars ‘are genuinely sought after’  is their much lauded reliability - as promoted by the likes of ‘Which’!  

Well, I guess if you put it that way, then yes - Lexus reliability is one of key marketing tools used (not sole, but certainly not irrelevant), so if Lexus wins on reliability survey, they obviously capitalise on that and some people may consider it when buying cars, thus to some small degree increasing volumes sold. The more popular is the model, the more in demand it is, the more likely it is to be stolen. So yes - reliability in that sense contributes.

I guess the reason why I said reliable cars are less in demand is little bit contrived and not necessarily relevant to Lexus, but when it comes to theft for parts unreliability of certain cars sometimes makes them a target - something like BMW M3 and M5 bearing issues, where at some point there was strong demand for second hand engines and cars were likely stolen just for their engine as it was easy £10,000 flip.

As for selling stolen vehicles... very rarely whole vehicle is sold in UK (or the country where it was stolen in general), as far as Europe is concerned I would say that is almost never the case. Simply because in Europe/UK we have robust enough systems where such car would be found out sooner or later. If the car as a whole stays in country, then it would be re-bodied/re-VINed, which was the case for more performance/track oriented cars, not sure if it is still popular, but back in the day things like Lotus Elise, BMW M3, Porsche 911, Boxer were in this camp - basically car get's crashed on track, insurance does not cover track use, so there is unreported car shell with documents that could be legitimised. But that would not apply to Lexus much, RC-F perhaps, but the yare just too rare to become an industry. So my guess would be - all whole cars are exported out to Africa... and for that reason buyer neither cares where the car came from, nor really benefits from lower price and with local standards it would be acceptable that new to them car comes with ripped off bumper and some hanging wires. I doubt thieves care to even fix anything, it may be something seller in Africa deals with, but basically there would be complete separation from sucm in UK that steals it and sucm in Africa that buys it and the buyer themselves. So it isn't as much of "double edge sword" in my view.

As for selling cars for parts - at that point it also does not matter... Even CANBUS weakness overall in my opinion does not matter - NX/RX are stolen because they are in demand, if not for CANBUS issue, there would be something else. Worst case scenario they could come and just tow the car away, or hijack it... sure CANBUS is convenient, but not the only way to get the car. I remember anecdotal story about BMW X6 when it came out and BMW right away expected that cars will have huge challenge when it came to thieves (I believe it was in ruzzia), so they had individually codded keys with factory immobiliser which at the time was challenging to steal. Thieves solution - they forged the ownership documents, paid dealership employee a bribe and sent them to BMW factory to get the keys. Few weeks later they got the keys and simply drove the cars away like their own. 

[LenT]

31 minutes ago, GMB said:

What I don't understand is why they don't seem to go for the later IS models which have?? CANbus and look a bit like the ES ( but a bit smaller ) - or do they?

As an owner of just such a Lexus, my thinking is that the value and demand for my eight year-old vehicle makes it less attractive to a thief aiming to sell it on as a legitimate used car.  They may also presume it to be of a high mileage, which rules out breaking for parts.

I was concerned about catalytic converter theft - of which it has three.  But on checking with my local Lexus Dealer about fitting appropriate shields, I was advised that ‘they were unaware of cat thefts from IS250s.’ This they attributed to the main cat being inaccessible in the engine bay and the other two being so small that they contained comparatively so little of the rare earth elements that theft is not worth the risk.

[ColinBarber]

17 minutes ago, LenT said:

This they attributed to the main cat being inaccessible in the engine bay and the other two being so small that they contained comparatively so little of the rare earth elements that theft is not worth the risk.

Just the latter point. All the targeted Toyota/Lexus vehicles also have the pre / primary / main cats in the engine bay - it is Toyota's standard design.

[Linas.P]

25 minutes ago, LenT said:

As an owner of just such a Lexus, my thinking is that the value and demand for my eight year-old vehicle makes it less attractive to a thief aiming to sell it on as a legitimate used car.  They may also presume it to be of a high mileage, which rules out breaking for parts.

I was concerned about catalytic converter theft - of which it has three.  But on checking with my local Lexus Dealer about fitting appropriate shields, I was advised that ‘they were unaware of cat thefts from IS250s.’ This they attributed to the main cat being inaccessible in the engine bay and the other two being so small that they contained comparatively so little of the rare earth elements that theft is not worth the risk.

And reliability also plays the role here - not only IS is now comparatively old car with little value to be had, but also it is 100% reliable, so there is simply no demand for parts. I would assume many thieves that brake the the cars for parts do so with or as legitimate business later on selling the parts on places like eBay. But if car does not have any common problems, then all the parts are rather worthless. Take for example IS250 computers and ECU. They can be worth £1000, because that is how much dealership charges, but because they almost never fail you can get ECU for IS250 for £20, there is just no demand for used Lexus parts. Whatever get's worn are usually wear and tear components one would not get used anyway. So that also partially why I say reliable cars are of less interest. 

High-mileage also rarely matters for thieves, if they get car with 180,000 miles they still going to lie engine done only 40,000 - not exactly type of people with morale to be truthful about condition. Probably more relevant for selling whole cars in Africa, but again the market there is such that cars can be easily clocked and buyers will accept any car regardless, as long as it runs at all.

My understanding is that the actual sucm that steals the cars gets set fee for doing it... like £2,000... maybe up-to £5,000 for some very expensive "special order" cars. So if car is worth less than £10,000 it is almost safe from theft, there is simply no margin that can be made on the car. Let's say IS300h is worth £10,000, certainly after theft some scratches, missing service history etc. it may not be worth that. £2,000 to get it stolen, £2,000 for all other expenses + risk related with type of work it is, likely weeks of hide and seek play between various hiding places and final sale price (because it has to be quick) of £8,000? Such car will be hardly worth anything, not to mention the profit probably needs to be split between multiple people, paying of their part to their leaders etc. 

I think - prime targets are Luxury SUVs with price tag between say £45k - £85k, not expensive enough trigger half of police force or have entire team working on recovering it, not too expensive to then sell in target market (Africa) and has enough value in it to cover the costs. RX/NX fits perfectly in that category. 

[GMB]

Thanks for clarifying Colin. I presume that by facelift IS200 you mean the one directly below - not many of them are in the UK.

Most of us have the one at the bottom - slightly different front end - which may be safer?

2 hours ago, ColinBarber said:

IS facelift (10/2016 on)

 

[GMB]

2 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Whatever get's worn are usually wear and tear components one would not get used anyway. So that also partially why I say reliable cars are of less interest. 

Now I understand - thank you

[Jgtcracer]

3 hours ago, ColinBarber said:

RC F

I didn’t know that, guess I’ll have to sit in a machine gun nest outside the house from now on….

[eightk]

4 minutes ago, Jgtcracer said:

I didn’t know that, guess I’ll have to sit in a machine gun nest outside the house from now on….

My hope is the RCF and LC are not desirable to the Middle Eastern muppets that buy these straight out of the containers.

I’ve seen container auctions on instagram - cars being sold off to men bidding while wearing long white dresses in a sweaty desert somewhere, there are even the shipping containers in the background.

That’s where the SUV Lexuses are going - they love em probably because they’re so reliable - but I’d like to know how they’re sold without keys. Presumably once you’re into the canbus system you can program new keys to them?

[LenT]

4 hours ago, LenT said:

Thanks for your comments, Linus,

Oooops!  😧

My apologies for the typo Linas.  My tipping is not what it used to be!

But as I may also be confusing you with Linus Pauling - currently the only person to be awarded two Nobel Prizes - I hope you'll forgive me!

[GMB]

 

Linus   see below.  Linas   see further below........

9 minutes ago, LenT said:

Oooops!  😧

My apologies for the typo Linas.  My tipping is not what it used to be!

[Rabbers]

Times change, not always for the better.  There was a time when it was not unknown for Lexus salesmen to include a statistically demonstrable mention of the low likelihood of theft in their spiel to prospective customers.  Nowadays, sad to say, it would perhaps be more reasonable for them to admit that theft, even more than imitation, is the sincerest form of flattery.  

[Linas.P]

22 minutes ago, LenT said:

Oooops!  😧

My apologies for the typo Linas.  My tipping is not what it used to be!

But as I may also be confusing you with Linus Pauling - currently the only person to be awarded two Nobel Prizes - I hope you'll forgive me!

Am I getting Nobel prize? for what? 😁

[Linas.P]

1 hour ago, eightk said:

My hope is the RCF and LC are not desirable to the Middle Eastern muppets that buy these straight out of the containers.

I’ve seen container auctions on instagram - cars being sold off to men bidding while wearing long white dresses in a sweaty desert somewhere, there are even the shipping containers in the background.

That’s where the SUV Lexuses are going - they love em probably because they’re so reliable - but I’d like to know how they’re sold without keys. Presumably once you’re into the canbus system you can program new keys to them?

I assume they just forge some documents locally and they still perhaps have some sort of Toyota dealer or whatever, so it is not much more complicated than replacing lost key. All that Lexus knows is that somebody with legitimate local ownership documents needs key, local staff probably accepts bribes and turns blind eye and pretend they didn't know it was not them who imported the car into the country. I guess in theory somebody can legitimately import the car from abroad, so there has to be way to get keys. Now sure Lexus/Toyota could start asking for VINs and start doing due diligence on every car, but there is nothing that can't be forged and especially if local staff is onboard it would be hard to pin down the thefts. I assume Lexus/Toyota just focuses on being car companies and leaves the theft for police to investigate.

Long  story short - they just get replacement keys. 

[GMB]

A Monkeys is what they do not give. It's all business to them. Just because some sucker in the UK gets ripped off why should we bother? Ready for the 60K service your highness? That'll be 4000 Riyals thank you.  It could be worse, it could be the post office or Fujitsu that nicked it.

[Linas.P]

Also in many countries that receive such cars there is a view that Europeans were colonists (which we were), so buying cars that was stolen from some sucker is morally sound and justified (even if that sucker may be their relative trying to build their life in UK).

My point - I don't think the fact that car is stolen detracts much of buyers in countries where they are sold. Maybe it is not explicitly advertised, but I am sure nobody have any illusions of how the cars ended-up there.

[ColinBarber]

3 hours ago, GMB said:

Thanks for clarifying Colin. I presume that by facelift IS200 you mean the one directly below - not many of them are in the UK.

Most of us have the one at the bottom - slightly different front end - which may be safer?

Yes. The facelift model introduced LED headlights which are CAN bus connected. Basically any IS built (not registered) from October 2016 until it stopped being sold here in 2020/21 - there were around 5,000 sold.

[GMB]

14 minutes ago, ColinBarber said:

there were around 5,000 sold

I had no idea that there were so many. I have never seen one. Is that worldwide or UK ? To think of it I have never seen an IS in this country registered after 2017. Maybe just me not looking?