What is China doing about it?

[VFR]

1 hour ago, peniole said:

You're kidding, right?

https://www.unrwa.org/palestine-refugees

Where do Palestine refugees live?

Nearly one-third of the registered Palestine refugees, more than 1.5 million individuals, live in 58 recognized Palestine refugee camps in Jordan, Lebanon, the Syrian Arab Republic, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem.

 

I do not think so as I am amazed at how many uninformed posters are on this thread. 

 

This will upset their apple cart (LOL) but will never be shown on the MSM  

 

 

[Guest]

The Palestinians have made the mistake that the Irish nationalists made. Using terrorism to plead sympathy from the wider world.  
 

regardless of how good and valid (or not) your reasoning or ‘historical context’… you start blowing up innocent men, women and children and you spit in the faces of a GOVERNMENT with an actual, arranged, funded MILITARY… allied with the most powerful and fierce nations on the planet… what do you think is going to happen? 
 

My sincerest empathy goes out to the poor people trying to forge their lives amidst this.  As most of us did in NI not so long ago. 
 

China and Russia… empathy for the people. With a proud and noble history and rich culture and traditions. All thrown to the wayside for the egos and selfishness of two angry little men. They will destroy themselves in their current trajectories. The western world is slowly removing them from its long term sustainability (manufacturing… energy..).  Without our money and investment it will fall back to how it was 30 years ago as fast as it grew. Especially crippling under its uncontrollable population which depends on food imports amongst other things from the nations it thinks it can bully. 
 

I don’t see what a bunch of angry, demanding  ‘White western liberals’ waving flags, holding up traffic junctions in our towns and cities are going to do. Some of the things I’m hearing being openly said and agreed upon about Jewish People… just five years ago would have (rightfully) alienated and lost you your job for hatred and intolerance of the tallest order.  Now it’s somehow okay?  People have short memories. 
 

Note.. above I am talking about governments (ideologies) and terrorist groups - they might pretend to represent and entire people (religion or nation) but they don’t.  Let’s face it. They bust into your (or my) kitchen with balaclavas and guns… and we’d agree with them too.  They are nothing but nasty, vile animals.  And if there is a God (whichever one) or some kind of earthly justice system out there, they will pay dearly for the terror they’ve caused. 
 

Whatever your cause… start killing the innocent. Hiding in hospitals. And you’ve lost me. 

[Newbie777]

9 hours ago, peniole said:

You're kidding, right?

https://www.unrwa.org/palestine-refugees

Where do Palestine refugees live?

Nearly one-third of the registered Palestine refugees, more than 1.5 million individuals, live in 58 recognized Palestine refugee camps in Jordan, Lebanon, the Syrian Arab Republic, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem.

 

Approx how many live in Jotdan and Lebanon please? Where are all the other Muslim countries please,? E.g. Egypt. UAE etc etc

[dutchie01]

The muslim brothers dont seem to get along too well. Saudi borderguards simply shoot every refugee they see. Try getting into qatar, oman, uae, egypt, jordan etc forget it they dont want you. Well can always try the west as there seem to be more sympathizers there than people in Gaza

[Boomer54]

24 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

The muslim brothers dont seem to get along too well. Saudi borderguards simply shoot every refugee they see. Try getting into qatar, oman, uae, egypt, jordan etc forget it they dont want you. Well can always try the west as there seem to be more sympathizers there than people in Gaza

Yes, ironic really don't you think?

[Malc1]

1 hour ago, dutchie01 said:

Try getting into qatar,

hey, isn't that where the Hamas bosses live in supreme luxury with their many $$$ billions gotten from .......  where ???

Malc

[GMB]

52 minutes ago, Boomer54 said:

Try getting into qatar, oman, uae, egypt, jordan etc forget it they dont want you

I had the pleasure of visiting the Allenby bridge crossing from Israel to Jordan ( without an appointment ) and was told by a nasty Israeli 19? year old guard that there was a sniper with a 50mm gun pointed at my head from 1 Km away and if I did not clear off I would be dead meat.  Nice chap. And we were USA and UK passport holders not poor Palestinians or some other Semite visitor.

Not to mention Intensive 4+ hr security checks at Ben Gurion and Marseille and CdG airports to get on an El Al flight. I don't mind that too much because the flights are very safe. I was told by an Israeli flight officer that El Al planes are the only commercial planes that have anti-missile flares installed as standard!

[Boomer54]

"that have anti-missile flares installed as standard!"

Hmm, can they be adapted for use on british roads as an anti- tw*t defence driving mechanism?

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Boomer54 said:

"that have anti-missile flares installed as standard!"

Hmm, can they be adapted for use on british roads as an anti- tw*t defence driving mechanism?

They can, but we can’t produce enough of them fast enough without getting into too much national debt! 

[Bluemarlin]

4 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

The muslim brothers dont seem to get along too well. Saudi borderguards simply shoot every refugee they see. Try getting into qatar, oman, uae, egypt, jordan etc forget it they dont want you. Well can always try the west as there seem to be more sympathizers there than people in Gaza

To be fair, a large part of the reason for Arab countries not taking in Palestinians is the fear that they'll be playing into Israel's expansionist hands, and that Israel just want to keep reducing the Palestinian population and take over their lands. This isn't helped by Israel, who have not only continued with illegal settement bulding in Palestinian territories, but also goverment ministers recently talking about the removal of Palestinians.  

In theory, if they were simply given the two state solution, that everyone but the current Israeli government are in favour of,  then they'd have no need to go anywhere.

[Bluemarlin]

13 hours ago, VFR said:

This will upset their apple cart (LOL) but will never be shown on the MSM  

 

 

Why on earth would it be shown on the MSM?

It's a fake/parody video created by a known prankster.

[peniole]

5 hours ago, Newbie777 said:

Approx how many live in Jotdan and Lebanon please? Where are all the other Muslim countries please,? E.g. Egypt. UAE etc etc

Jordan, refugees and those that actually have settled and are no longer considered registered refugees 3 million

https://www.refworld.org/docid/49749cfcc.html

Lebanon 250 to 300k

https://www.refworld.org/docid/49749cf0c.html

Syria 500k

https://www.unrwa.org/where-we-work/syria

 

...etc.

Here's a longer list with refs on wiki

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians

 

Yes there is incredible misinformation out there. Bill aka blue marlin hit the nail on the head. They got fed up after the multiple forced migrations.

 

[dutchie01]

1 hour ago, Bluemarlin said:

in theory, if they were simply given the two state solution, that everyone but the current Israeli government are in favour of,  then they'd have no need to go anywhere.

The issue seems to be Hamas that wants the end of the state of Israel and wants to create an islamic state from the river jordan to the sea and is even prepared to offer the Palestinian population in trying the reach that goal. How can you accept a 2 state when that state wants to destroy your country?

 

1 hour ago, peniole said:

Yes there is incredible misinformation out there. Bill aka blue marlin hit the nail on the head. They got fed up after the multiple forced migrations.

 

Again Hamas is the real issue why they keep their borders tight shut. The fear is that with a wave of refugees Hamas will come along and continue their activities from Egyptian or Jordan lands firing rocket attacks etc. This will then enable Israel to retaliate and fire back possibly endangering the fragile peace between Israel and Egypt/Jordan.

[peniole]

10 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

The issue seems to be Hamas that wants the end of the state of Israel and wants to create an islamic state from the river jordan to the sea and is even prepared to offer the Palestinian population in trying the reach that goal. How can you accept a 2 state when that state wants to destroy your country?

 

Again Hamas is the real issue why they keep their borders tight shut. The fear is that with a wave of refugees Hamas will come along and continue their activities from Egyptian or Jordan lands firing rocket attacks etc. This will then enable Israel to retaliate and fire back possibly endangering the fragile peace between Israel and Egypt/Jordan.

Both sides are the issue.

You can't fix a genocide by committing another one. But we're stuck in that cycle, and people are too dumb to learn. How's fixing the WW2 genocide by committing another one working out so far? Not so great eh.

[Malc1]

23 minutes ago, peniole said:

Both sides are the issue.

You can't fix a genocide by committing another one. But we're stuck in that cycle, and people are too dumb to learn. How's fixing the WW2 genocide by committing another one working out so far? Not so great eh.

Mass killings have forever occurred for no discernible rational acceptable Western reasoning ……. Khmer rouge   Vietnam in general. Myanamar now ,  and if China didn’t careless then Hong Kong would go that way too I’m thinking    Taiwan might follow ….. India Partition under Mountbatten saw at least a million slaughtered on both sides Muslim and Hindu 

Methinks it’s no different today, just maybe far less being slaughtered ….. in the name of ….. does anyone really know ????

Malc 

[Boomer54]

18 minutes ago, Malc1 said:

Mass killings have forever occurred for no discernible rational acceptable Western reasoning ……. Khmer rouge   Vietnam in general. Myanamar now ,  and if China didn’t careless then Hong Kong would go that way too I’m thinking    Taiwan might follow ….. India Partition under Mountbatten saw at least a million slaughtered on both sides Muslim and Hindu 

Methinks it’s no different today, just maybe far less being slaughtered ….. in the name of ….. does anyone really know ????

Malc 

If Psychology has taught me one thing it is that there is no limit to the way humans can rationalise their actions so that they might appear coherent to their own need to survive. If you are looking for 'truth' , or 'right' don't waste your time looking at human behaviour.

Time better spent appreciating a great Malbec, or Carmenere. I know some will not agree, but honestly all that means is you have a lot left to see.

[Bluemarlin]

2 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

The issue seems to be Hamas that wants the end of the state of Israel and wants to create an islamic state from the river jordan to the sea and is even prepared to offer the Palestinian population in trying the reach that goal. How can you accept a 2 state when that state wants to destroy your country?

That's true Bernard, but Israel, by their actions, and now their words too,  have made it clear that they want to have a Jewish state, that includes driving the Palestinians from their lands so that they can expand into them. That's what drives the historic resistance to two states. Sure, Hamas are a destructive terrorist organisation, but it's abundantly clear that neither they, nor the Arab states, have any chance of destroying Israel as a country.

Bottom line is that Israel has a fundamental right to exist as a nation, in whatever form it chooses. Equally though, the Palestinians have a right to autonomy and sellf governance in their own lands, without foreign occupation or expansion into them.

Why that apparently reasonable solution has been impossible is because the likes of Hamas provides cover for Israel to deny two states, and Israel's continued occupation and settlement building provides Hamas with reasons for its actions.  The extremists on either side feed each other's desires for total ownership/control, at the expense of the ordinary people on both sides, who just want to get on with their lives in peace.

[Malc1]

The whole of Gaza will probably be flattened, all tunnels expunged, all services destroyed with just masses of rubble strewn all over ……. then no one’s going to rebuild that desolate place and no one’s going to want to live there, in Gaza …… it’s such a tiny area overall and will possibly be filled with tented camps and impossible to live in flattened enclaves occasionally fed water and refugee food from Egypt wherever ……. There’ll be nowt left to fight over …… methinks that’s the Israel Plan and the destruction will stop when there’s nothing left to destroy ……. sadly the remaining Hostages will be expendable casualties of War …… unless someone convinced Hamas to release them …… that’s if Hamas even knows where they are or if any survive  …… Qatar Lebanon Iran Iraq whatever would have sorted that by now if they knew how to ……. the Gaza end will come with nothing left to fight over or want to fight over ……. Rebuilding will never be able to take place nor be allowed to occur …….. 

THE FINAL END RESULT …… might take some months and a few 000’s deaths yet to come 

The sooner the better and with Aden a Protectorate of some  sovereign state or several to police that Red Sea passage  and repel bandits and invaders of global trade endeavour 

 

Thats me done …… let’s see 

Malc 

[LenT]

11 hours ago, peniole said:

Both sides are the issue.

You can't fix a genocide by committing another one.

The latest demographics of Israel show that of its 9.8M population, 7.2M (73%) are Jews and 2.1M (21%) Arab - the majority of the latter apparently preferring to describe themselves as ‘Palestinians in Israel’ or ‘Israeli Palestinians’.

They have full voting rights as Citizens of Israel - and I believe they are discriminated against in only one respect: they are not allowed to join the IDF.  It was considered invidious to ask them to face possible military action against other Palestinians.

So if the definition of ‘genocide’ is ‘the systematic and deliberate extermination of a national and racial group’ ( eg driving all Jews into the Sea) I don’t really see how giving full citizenship to another racial group achieves its extermination.

In fact it’s further complicated by the fact that the birth rate for the Muslim population of Israel - although it has considerably reduced - is still greater than that of the Jewish population.  

Which suggests that there will be more Palestinian Arabs becoming Israeli citizens in years to come than fewer - the antithesis of genocide, I would have thought.

[peniole]

5 hours ago, LenT said:

I believe they are discriminated against in only one respect

Sadly, your belief can be too easily shown to be misguided. I wish it weren't. I prefer a one state solution where the two democratically figure it out and leave the rest of the world out of it, but:

"Palestinian citizens of Israel, who comprise about 19% of the population, face many forms of institutionalized discrimination. In 2018, discrimination against Palestinians was crystallized in a constitutional law which, for the first time, enshrined Israel exclusively as the “nation state of the Jewish people”."

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-a-cruel-system-of-domination-and-a-crime-against-humanity/

You don't believe amnesty international. How about Human Rights Watch describing the same:

https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution

 

FYI your citizenship and nationality are not the same in Israel. You are a Citizen of Israel with a Jewish, Arab, Druze...etc. nationality (from Israeli center for Democracy).

Several prominent Israelis—including a former Education Minister, a former Knesset Member, a celebrated playwright, and several Arab citizens—requested that the State recognize a new category of nationality: "Israeli." This category would include all Israeli citizens, Jews and Arabs alike, rather than using the current ethnic-religious classification.

In a petition to the Israeli Supreme Court, they argued that the current categorization, which focuses on ethnic-religious origin, distinguishes between Arab and Jewish citizens and thereby contributes to discrimination and to infringement of the rights of Israel's Arab citizens.

https://en.idi.org.il/articles/6516

...they failed

 

or how about one of a plethora of discriminatory laws "The “Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law” bars family reunification for Israelis married to Palestinians from the Occupied Territories."

https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-207202/

Isn't that the equivalent of preventing a british citizen from marrying and subsequent reunification with someone from North Ireland in the UK? Is that acceptable?

 

Also, don't forget that those who have Citizenship are only about a 1/3 of the total Palestinian population. Why not just give this "equal citizenship" to all 6 million?

 

Here's a reasonable backgrounder from CFR: https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-know-about-arab-citizens-israel

Also, they are allowed to join the IDF, and some do. Another bit you've been misinformed on.

[dutchie01]

The entire middle east situation is so complicated that it will be extremely difficult, if at all possible, to find a solution. What is fact for one is an opinion for the other. Place 4 people around the table and you will have 4 opinions. As always it are the poor that will suffer.

Better to return to the original topic and give it a little twist?

What is China doing to the international Car Market? Will they cause massive bankrupcys? will European and American manufacturers close production in Europe and the States and move to China for production? 

[Malc1]

 ...........

12 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

Better to return to the original topic and give it a little twist?

What is China doing to the international Car Market? Will they cause massive bankrupcys? will European and American manufacturers close production in Europe and the States and move to China for production? 

...................whatever the Chinese State decides to pursue itself sure won't go " bankrupt "

BYD big investor is I understand Warren Buffet  Berkshire Hathaway .  and he knows more than most about all sorts financially 

AND contrast with say  the China Property market and say Evergrande billions problems it's simply that the business cannot, as in western financial parlance, go "bankrupt" ......  that concept doesnt seem to exist in China State accounting rules .............. so maybe BYD will always be there and can price itself simply to undermine whatever market it wishes to totally squeeze till all the " normal " financial rules send those businesses " bankrupt "

Whatever Elon and Tesla might wish for .........  BYD is here to stay forever and a day, well until the China Govt decides otherwise ...... it might seem

Malc

 

[Boomer54]

12 minutes ago, Malc1 said:

 ...........

...................whatever the Chinese State decides to pursue itself sure won't go " bankrupt "

BYD big investor is I understand Warren Buffet  Berkshire Hathaway .  and he knows more than most about all sorts financially 

AND contrast with say  the China Property market and say Evergrande billions problems it's simply that the business cannot, as in western financial parlance, go "bankrupt" ......  that concept doesnt seem to exist in China State accounting rules .............. so maybe BYD will always be there and can price itself simply to undermine whatever market it wishes to totally squeeze till all the " normal " financial rules send those businesses " bankrupt "

Whatever Elon and Tesla might wish for .........  BYD is here to stay forever and a day, well until the China Govt decides otherwise ...... it might seem

Malc

 

The Chinese state does provide a backstop to disruptive financial meltdowns. The outcome of that is though felt in different ways depending upon where you are in financial structure. Shareholders take hit on the shareprice, lenders secured and unsecured follow thereafter. As a separate issue if state intervention becomes significant enough you will also see it in the value of your currency as measured against other currencies that are more stable. The latter though as not tended to hurt the Chinese Rembini too much to date as most other major trading currencies have been involved in much the same kind of interventionism.

I don't think there is any virtue in expecting that the Chinese won't pursue their expansion via Taiwan etc , because they can't afford to do so. Their central system of control if anything gives them certain advantages in that respect. It will be interesting actually if the USA elect Trump again though, because last time around he took aim at the Chinese on trade and the expectation is second time around he probably would go that route again. In fact import of Chinese cars might be a very easy and publicly popular target for him to shootdown.

[Malc1]

Wonder what propulsion the Presidential Motorcade runs on ?   Today now and tomorrow say ……. Can multi tonne effective tank weight “ cars “  be EV propelled effectively  ? 

Malc  

[GMB]

 

I warned you they were coming last year and now look what's happened! Even Linas agreed with me, and that's saying something.

Apparently the Chinese gov't is blocking exports in order to prevent a glut in the international markets and keep prices higher ( relatively ).

 

BYD's all-electric sales results were especially crucial because it may mark a turning point when the Chinese company sells more EVs than Tesla in a quarter. We will know once Tesla releases its own numbers later this week. Update 8:55 a.m.: By "this week," we mean "right now." Tesla reports that it delivered over 484,000 vehicles in Q4, so it appears BYD did it fact pass the American company as the world's top EV seller.

In 2023, BYD sold over 3.0 million passenger plug-in electric cars (in line with the target), which is 62% more than a year ago.

BYD Group passenger plug-in car sales year-to-date (YOY change):

• BEVs: 1,574,822 (up 73%)
• PHEVs: 1,438,084 (up 52%)
• Total: 3,012,906 (up 62%)

For reference, in 2022, BYD sold more than 1.85 million plug-in electric cars. The cumulative number of BYD plug-in electric cars is now more than 6 million units.

BYD has become the largest Chinese carmaker, the largest car brand in China, the world's largest PHEV and plug-in electric car manufacturer, and probably also the largest all-electric car manufacturer in Q4.