What is China doing about it?

[Malc1]

We just have to remember that there’s no simple “ free market forces “ in China  as we in the western world have to run with 

The import of Chinese products to the “ free world “ must therefore simply be western Govt authorised and controlled “ licensed “ ……. so the survival of Tesla might be artificially supported with these Chinese Quotas from time to time  ……. as will be the position of other global EV manufacturers too 

Malc 

[LenT]

2 hours ago, peniole said:

Palestinian citizens of Israel, who comprise about 19% of the population,

Thanks for your reply.

I’ll keep my comments on ‘genocide’ brief rather than meander too far from the original topic of China (has anyone mentioned the Uyghur or Hmong?)

On a small point of detail: 

2 hours ago, peniole said:

"Palestinian citizens of Israel, who comprise about 19% of the population,

apple Color Emoji, Segoe UI Emoji, Segoe UI Symbol">You’re slightly out of date. The latest estimate from the Central Bureau of Statistics, December 2023, is 21.1%.

apple Color Emoji, Segoe UI Emoji, Segoe UI Symbol">In other words, there are an increasing number of citizens of Israel who you name as Palestinian. I still fail to see how that qualifies as ‘genocide’.

2 hours ago, peniole said:

You don't believe amnesty international. How about Human Rights Watch describing the same:

apple Color Emoji, Segoe UI Emoji, Segoe UI Symbol">What I believe is actually irrelevant. However, anyone interested in a detailed analysis of both reports might benefit from this appraisal by an American academic Cary Nelson:

apple Color Emoji, Segoe UI Emoji, Segoe UI Symbol">https://fathomjournal.org/amnesty-international-israel-and-race-baiting/

2 hours ago, peniole said:

Here's a reasonable backgrounder from CFR: https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-know-about-arab-citizens-israel

apple Color Emoji, Segoe UI Emoji, Segoe UI Symbol">And here’s another backgrounder!

apple Color Emoji, Segoe UI Emoji, Segoe UI Symbol">https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-status-of-arabs-in-israel

apple Color Emoji, Segoe UI Emoji, Segoe UI Symbol">When it comes to discrimination, I can’t help feeling that should you happen to be, Arabic and, say, female or homosexual – or possibly both – you might well prefer your status in Israel.

2 hours ago, peniole said:

Also, they are allowed to join the IDF, and some do. Another bit you've been misinformed on.

apple Color Emoji, Segoe UI Emoji, Segoe UI Symbol">Yes, my error! I should have written ‘required’ not ‘allowed’. Apparently this is the current situation.

The sole legal distinction between Jewish and Arab citizens of Israel is that the latter are not requiredapple Color Emoji, Segoe UI Emoji, Segoe UI Symbol"> to serve in the Israeli army. This was to spare Arab citizens the need to bear arms against their brethren. Nevertheless, many Arabs have volunteered for military duty – more than 1,000 in 2020 – and the Druzeapple Color Emoji, Segoe UI Emoji, Segoe UI Symbol"> and Circassianapple Color Emoji, Segoe UI Emoji, Segoe UI Symbol"> communities are subject to the draft. apple Color Emoji, Segoe UI Emoji, Segoe UI Symbol">

 

[Boomer54]

15 minutes ago, Malc1 said:

Wonder what propulsion the Presidential Motorcade runs on ?   Today now and tomorrow say ……. Can multi tonne effective tank weight “ cars “  be EV propelled effectively  ? 

Malc  

Runs on hotair malc the highest pollutant of all.

[dutchie01]

If its a Trump motorcade it will run on the best propulsion the world has ever seen unbelievably good, the best!

[Linas.P]

On 1/16/2024 at 11:32 AM, Boomer54 said:

Interesting. The middle east is rapidly heating up. I am beginning to wonder if Iran and the USA will be in a state of outright war quite soon. If so, does Russia use that as an excuse to take its European agenda even further. As for China all of that serves to give them a window of opportunity in Taiwan. Frankly, I cannot remember a more dangerous time in the last 50 years than what appears to be facing us today.

I think that is kind of the point as to why China sits on side-lines. It does hurt them in short term, but in long term their strategy is to destabilise "the west". So they are alright with Iran backing houtis and can accept little bit lower exports, also let's not forget - this creates shortage and it is buyer who bares the additional costs. I guess in long term it may reduce their export volumes, but short term it is just extra cost for Europe. Also Europe is likely able to pay that higher cost, so it is win-win strategy wise, they hurt their geopolitical rivals whilst not losing anything at all themselves. Also it is known that houtis generally allow ruzzian ships past and I assume same applies to China bound ships, obviously controlling terrorist organisation is hard, so eventually they will target some wrong ship, but 1 ship from 1000s isn't that big of a deal for china. 

Answer is simple - economist ties with dictatorships does not prevent wars, I would argue it makes them more likely. Same like spectacular failure of German policy towards the ruzzia, same here - china is totalitarian state, any trade with us they going to exploit and use it as leverage to undermine us. So we should stop looking into precedent of European integration, the only reason trade prevents wars in Europe is because Europe is democratic, no democratic government ever going to sacrifice economy over some stupid war, but dictatorships will. I guess point I am trying to make - we should start sanctioning china now, and cutting our economic ties now, not when they invade Taiwan or somebody else. Because all this globalisation and trade for them means - more money to arm and more opportunities to get necessary technology for war. Sure there was time when china was liberalising and becoming more democratic (if we can call it that), I think it was fair to give it a chance, same for ruzzia - in 90s they were becoming more democratic so they deserved the chance, the problem is that we are too slow to act when country turns totalitarian. That even applies to Europe itself, Poland just barely averted democratic collapse, Hungary is openly pro-ruzzian and EU/Europe/Combined West completely fails to act. Turkey is hardly an ally, yet they still in NATO playing both sides.

That is why dictatorship looks at "us" and says "they are weak, we can manipulate them". Sadly, that is kind of true. 

[peniole]

3 hours ago, LenT said:

I still fail to see how that qualifies as ‘genocide’.

Specific Crimes

Genocide

Coined in 1944 by legal scholar Raphael Lemkin, ‘genocide’ is a term with both sociological and legal meaning. As Lemkin explained,

the term [genocide] does not necessarily signify mass killings. More often…the end may be accomplished by the forced disintegration of political and social institutions, of the culture of the people, of their language, their national feelings and their religion. It may be accomplished by wiping out all basis of personal security, liberty, health and dignity. When these means fail, the machine gun can always be utilized as a last resort.

For Lemkin, the violence inflicted against the individual is secondary to the aim of the destruction of the larger group to which individuals belong.[28]

Our current understanding of genocide shares a great deal with Lemkin’s interpretation: It is a special, collective type of violence enacted against a specific people. The term was defined with greater legal specificity in the Genocide Convention as acts “committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group.” These acts could include components such as “(a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; and (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group.”[29] This definition is mirrored in Article 6 of the Statute of the ICC, which gained jurisdiction over crimes occurring in Palestine since June 13, 2014,[30] and in the Rome Statute, to which Palestine acceded on January 2, 2015.

During the 2014 Gaza War, the U.N. Special Advisers on the Prevention of Genocide issued a statement that they were “disturbed by the flagrant use of hate speech in the social media, particularly against the Palestinian population,” and that “individuals have disseminated messages that could be dehumanising to the Palestinians and have called for the killing of members of this group,” while “remind[ing] all that incitement to commit atrocity crimes is prohibited under international law.”[31] This sort of language is not isolated, either. Israeli lawmakers have publicly called for action against Palestinians that would clearly meet the definition under the 1948 Convention. In 2008, Matan Vilnai, the Deputy Defense Minister for Israel, declared that the increasing tensions in the Gaza Strip would bring on a “shoah” (or holocaust). He stated, “The more Qassam [rocket] fire intensifies and the rockets reach a longer range, they will bring upon themselves a bigger shoah because we will use all our might to defend ourselves.”[32] Israeli Justice Minister Ayelet Shaked posted a statement in June 2014 on Facebook stating that “the entire Palestinian people is the enemy” and he advocated for Palestine’s destruction “including its elderly and its women, its cities and its villages, its property and its infrastructure.” The post also called for the killing of Palestinian mothers who give birth to “little snakes.”[33] The language is shocking, and when combined with the policies enacted by the people saying things like this, it becomes clear that the actions of Israel could constitute genocide.

Professor of international law Francis Boyle agrees, and he testified in 2013 that “The Palestinians have been the victims of genocide as defined by the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.” He went on to say that for the past 65 years, the Israeli government, and the legal systems before them, “the Zionist agencies, forces, and terrorist gangs – have ruthlessly implemented a systematic and comprehensive military, political, religious, economic, and cultural campaign with the intent to destroy in substantial part the national, ethnical, racial, and different religious group (Jews versus Muslims and Christians) constituting the Palestinian people.”[34]

The repeated campaigns of violence into the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT), causing a civilian population to constantly live under the very real threat of airstrikes or other military action, and not allowing them to leave, seem to satisfy some of the elements of the crime as laid out. The same is true about the policies of tightly controlling food, water, electricity, and fishing – all of which warrant at least investigation by the ICC.

https://worldwithoutgenocide.org/genocides-and-conflicts/israel-palestine-conflict-history-causes-and-international-law#_ftn34

and today we see south Africa arguing the same in the Haugue https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-south-africa-genocide-hate-speech-97a9e4a84a3a6bebeddfb80f8a030724

 

I also see you ignore this bit:

6 hours ago, peniole said:

or how about one of a plethora of discriminatory laws "The “Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law” bars family reunification for Israelis married to Palestinians from the Occupied Territories."

https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-207202/

Isn't that the equivalent of preventing a british citizen from marrying and subsequent reunification with someone from North Ireland in the UK? Is that acceptable?

I'm guessing then this is acceptable?

 

Neither side are angels, and Bluemarlin again hit it on the head.

21 hours ago, Bluemarlin said:

Why that apparently reasonable solution has been impossible is because the likes of Hamas provides cover for Israel to deny two states, and Israel's continued occupation and settlement building provides Hamas with reasons for its actions.  The extremists on either side feed each other's desires for total ownership/control, at the expense of the ordinary people on both sides, who just want to get on with their lives in peace.

[Linas.P]

1 hour ago, peniole said:

Specific Crimes

Genocide

Coined in 1944 by legal scholar Raphael Lemkin, ‘genocide’ is a term with both sociological and legal meaning. As Lemkin explained,

the term [genocide] does not necessarily signify mass killings. More often…the end may be accomplished by the forced disintegration of political and social institutions, of the culture of the people, of their language, their national feelings and their religion. It may be accomplished by wiping out all basis of personal security, liberty, health and dignity. When these means fail, the machine gun can always be utilized as a last resort.

For Lemkin, the violence inflicted against the individual is secondary to the aim of the destruction of the larger group to which individuals belong.[28]

Our current understanding of genocide shares a great deal with Lemkin’s interpretation: It is a special, collective type of violence enacted against a specific people. The term was defined with greater legal specificity in the Genocide Convention as acts “committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group.” These acts could include components such as “(a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; and (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group.”[29] This definition is mirrored in Article 6 of the Statute of the ICC, which gained jurisdiction over crimes occurring in Palestine since June 13, 2014,[30] and in the Rome Statute, to which Palestine acceded on January 2, 2015.

During the 2014 Gaza War, the U.N. Special Advisers on the Prevention of Genocide issued a statement that they were “disturbed by the flagrant use of hate speech in the social media, particularly against the Palestinian population,” and that “individuals have disseminated messages that could be dehumanising to the Palestinians and have called for the killing of members of this group,” while “remind[ing] all that incitement to commit atrocity crimes is prohibited under international law.”[31] This sort of language is not isolated, either. Israeli lawmakers have publicly called for action against Palestinians that would clearly meet the definition under the 1948 Convention. In 2008, Matan Vilnai, the Deputy Defense Minister for Israel, declared that the increasing tensions in the Gaza Strip would bring on a “shoah” (or holocaust). He stated, “The more Qassam [rocket] fire intensifies and the rockets reach a longer range, they will bring upon themselves a bigger shoah because we will use all our might to defend ourselves.”[32] Israeli Justice Minister Ayelet Shaked posted a statement in June 2014 on Facebook stating that “the entire Palestinian people is the enemy” and he advocated for Palestine’s destruction “including its elderly and its women, its cities and its villages, its property and its infrastructure.” The post also called for the killing of Palestinian mothers who give birth to “little snakes.”[33] The language is shocking, and when combined with the policies enacted by the people saying things like this, it becomes clear that the actions of Israel could constitute genocide.

Professor of international law Francis Boyle agrees, and he testified in 2013 that “The Palestinians have been the victims of genocide as defined by the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.” He went on to say that for the past 65 years, the Israeli government, and the legal systems before them, “the Zionist agencies, forces, and terrorist gangs – have ruthlessly implemented a systematic and comprehensive military, political, religious, economic, and cultural campaign with the intent to destroy in substantial part the national, ethnical, racial, and different religious group (Jews versus Muslims and Christians) constituting the Palestinian people.”[34]

The repeated campaigns of violence into the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT), causing a civilian population to constantly live under the very real threat of airstrikes or other military action, and not allowing them to leave, seem to satisfy some of the elements of the crime as laid out. The same is true about the policies of tightly controlling food, water, electricity, and fishing – all of which warrant at least investigation by the ICC.

https://worldwithoutgenocide.org/genocides-and-conflicts/israel-palestine-conflict-history-causes-and-international-law#_ftn34

and today we see south Africa arguing the same in the Haugue https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-south-africa-genocide-hate-speech-97a9e4a84a3a6bebeddfb80f8a030724

 

I also see you ignore this bit:

I'm guessing then this is acceptable?

 

Neither side are angels, and Bluemarlin again hit it on the head.

I am with you on this, Hamas may be terrorist organisation who committed or are committing terrorist acts, but Israel overall policy for Palestine and generally Arab minority in the country is that of genocide. Overarching goal is to either eradicate people, or eradicate their culture whereas overtime "2 state solution" will not be needed as there will be no such people as Palestinians. Also it is kind of hard to accused Palestinians of anything considering they are living in open air concentration camp for decades now... and the only reason Israel can get away with this is memory of WW2 and holocaust. Kind of ironic that people who should know the best are the first ones to forget. 

Now that said - it is quite far from the topic of iran proxies and chinese response. I know that attacks on shipping is in response to Israel's invasion of Palestine, which is in response of Hamas terrorist attack, but we need to understand that Palestinians and their cause and Israel is really just as side story to larger Geopolitical gamble. ruzzia, iran and china are generally interested in destabilising west, ruzzia desperately needed to open new fronts, they did it in ex-french colonies to distract Europe/EU as France's military is big part (note France's support is nowhere the top of the list for Ukraine, France really playing minor role, even Germans who were really slow are now way ahead), then Israel was just what was required to compromise US resolve. I know now there are many issues, but war in Israel marked the point where US could not agree to any more aid to Ukraine. And now iran and houtis attacks on shipping is just wider destabilising actions, they need to be looked at in this wider context. Then suddenly it becomes clear why china isn't really worried about it, because it works out for their general strategy.

[peniole]

5 hours ago, LenT said:

What I believe is actually irrelevant. However, anyone interested in a detailed analysis of both reports might benefit from this appraisal by an American academic Cary Nelson:

https://fathomjournal.org/amnesty-international-israel-and-race-baiting/

Sorry missed the above link.

Even the ADL (anti defamation league) refused labelling HRW, Amnesty and Oxfam as antisemitic.

“We strongly believe that these organizations are crucial to ensuring robust civil society and democratic protections worldwide,” the ADL said, while acknowledging there was “significant disagreement” between it and the three groups on Israel policy.

The ADL said calling the groups anti-Semitic “is neither accurate nor helpful to the fight against anti-Semitism.”

https://www.timesofisrael.com/adl-slams-us-effort-to-declare-rights-groups-anti-semitic/

[Bluemarlin]

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

Now that said - it is quite far from the topic of iran proxies and chinese response. I know that attacks on shipping is in response to Israel's invasion of Palestine, which is in response of Hamas terrorist attack, but we need to understand that Palestinians and their cause and Israel is really just as side story to larger Geopolitical gamble. ruzzia, iran and china are generally interested in destabilising west, ruzzia desperately needed to open new fronts, they did it in ex-french colonies to distract Europe/EU as France's military is big part (note France's support is nowhere the top of the list for Ukraine, France really playing minor role, even Germans who were really slow are now way ahead), then Israel was just what was required to compromise US resolve. I know now there are many issues, but war in Israel marked the point where US could not agree to any more aid to Ukraine. And now iran and houtis attacks on shipping is just wider destabilising actions, they need to be looked at in this wider context. Then suddenly it becomes clear why china isn't really worried about it, because it works out for their general strategy.

A young man like yourself should be thinking more long term LInas 😉

With Iran's ever growing secular population, who are largely pro Western, things could change dramatically. My personal view is that the religious extremists are on borrowed time. If and when that happens, and Iran shift to a secular democracy, then the US and Europe would be more natural allies than Russia and China.

China's not worried either way, as the other big shift in the power balance in the Mid East is the reducing importance of oil, as everyone switches to renewables. As it stands China are way ahead of anyone in the global manufacture and supply of the technology and equipment for that.

In other, vaguely related news, just read in New Scientist that AI has taken decades off normal scientific research and come up with a new material that enables batteries to be manufactured with 70% less lithium.

[GMB]

Someone been taking lessons from Rishi, Priti and Cruella?  The solution from the Israeli foreign minister. Forget Rwanda just build your own ghetto   From the guardian just now -:-

Israel's foreign minister suggests Palestinians could be housed on artificial island in the Mediterranean - sources

 

The Israeli foreign minister, Israel Katz, has suggested that Palestinians could be housed on an artificial island in the Mediterranean, according to sources at the meeting of EU ministers in Brussels.

It is understood that Katz presented a video on the concept to the 27 EU foreign ministers as an alternative to the two-state solution.

He told them the video referred to a plan made some years ago when he was a transport minister.

The intervention has caused dismay in Brussels where the EU representatives were meeting as part of a mission to lay the ground for a “comprehensive peace plan”.

They also heard from foreign ministers from Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia

[Linas.P]

4 minutes ago, Bluemarlin said:

A young man like yourself should be thinking more long term LInas 😉

With Iran's ever growing secular population, who are largely pro Western, things could change dramatically. My personal view is that the religious extremists are on borrowed time. If and when that happens, and Iran shift to a secular democracy, then the US and Europe would be more natural allies than Russia and China.

China's not worried either way, as the other big shift in the power balance in the Mid East is the reducing importance of oil, as everyone switches to renewables. As it stands China are way ahead of anyone in the global manufacture and supply of the technology and equipment for that.

In other, vaguely related news, just read in New Scientist that AI has taken decades off normal scientific research and come up with a new material that enables batteries to be manufactured with 70% less lithium.

It is always old men that are thinking long term... just the way it is.

Not necessarily that I disagree with you, but for each of your point I can play devils advocate... 

Why do you think Iran's secular democracy would be pro western? Or why do you think it would be democracy, it may as well just be another form of dictatorship? In short - fall of current dictatorship is most likely to be replaced with another dictatorship, not democracy and there is very little reason for any form of government to be pro-western there. I just can't see the reasoning behind this claim.

Secondly - I hope you not using China's own stats for their adoption or readiness for anything? Because if you do, then I sadly need to inform you they are ahead of nothing, all their stats are made-up, they don't make as many EVs as they claim and those that they make are rotting in the massive fields because they either do not work, or nobody wants them, or they fail as soon as somebody tries to use them. All this green revolution in China are totally made-up story. And whatever little they have is all stolen technology, they haven't invented anything meaningful since probably year 900, when they figured out how to make gun-powder.

Also I will believe that batteries can be made with 70% less lithium when I see them. I may be old fashion, but I am not into religion and EVangelism is a religion, sadly scientific journals seems to be penetrated with that nowadays. To be clear here - I am not saying it didn't happen, they may have found a way to make Battery with 70% less lithium by using AI, however that is not the same as saying "they are ready to make that Battery using mass production methods at anytime soon". Now I am sure such article as always says "we have working prototype and in 12 month we will start pilot of the technology, INVEST HERE!", but so far I keep seeing these claims times and times again for decades and billions invested and lost, but no working product. So needless to say I am sceptical.  

[GMB]

13 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

So needless to say I am sceptical

Let me just say  -  Nuclear Fusion.  Sounds wonderful.  Any takers?

[Linas.P]

5 minutes ago, GMB said:

Let me just say  -  Nuclear Fusion.  Sounds wonderful.  Any takers?

Seems like any solution that would solve all the issues... my view - if with 40s technology we managed to solve nuclear fission (not even we, maybe 5% of world scientists in US), then I can't believe with todays technology we can resolve nuclear fusion. However, the funding is just not there.

[Bluemarlin]

18 hours ago, Linas.P said:

It is always old men that are thinking long term... just the way it is.

Not necessarily that I disagree with you, but for each of your point I can play devils advocate... 

Why do you think Iran's secular democracy would be pro western? Or why do you think it would be democracy, it may as well just be another form of dictatorship? In short - fall of current dictatorship is most likely to be replaced with another dictatorship, not democracy and there is very little reason for any form of government to be pro-western there. I just can't see the reasoning behind this claim.

Secondly - I hope you not using China's own stats for their adoption or readiness for anything? Because if you do, then I sadly need to inform you they are ahead of nothing, all their stats are made-up, they don't make as many EVs as they claim and those that they make are rotting in the massive fields because they either do not work, or nobody wants them, or they fail as soon as somebody tries to use them. All this green revolution in China are totally made-up story. And whatever little they have is all stolen technology, they haven't invented anything meaningful since probably year 900, when they figured out how to make gun-powder.

Also I will believe that batteries can be made with 70% less lithium when I see them. I may be old fashion, but I am not into religion and EVangelism is a religion, sadly scientific journals seems to be penetrated with that nowadays. To be clear here - I am not saying it didn't happen, they may have found a way to make battery with 70% less lithium by using AI, however that is not the same as saying "they are ready to make that battery using mass production methods at anytime soon". Now I am sure such article as always says "we have working prototype and in 12 month we will start pilot of the technology, INVEST HERE!", but so far I keep seeing these claims times and times again for decades and billions invested and lost, but no working product. So needless to say I am sceptical.  

A lot to unpack, but I'll try.

Iran's population (ie ordinary people) have  always been fairly pro western, it's just the religious leaders who've been more beligerant. An interesting statistic about education in Iran is that women make up 70% of STEM graduates, far higher than in Western countries. Education, especially for women, is a leading indicator for development, productivity and growth, which in turn lead to more democratic inclinations.  In any any event, even a move towards fullly secular leadership, and away from a theocratic one, is likely to align Iran more closely to the West. The reasons for that include Iran being the strongest Shia state amongst mainly Sunni theorcracies, as well as (with the exception of the mullahs) being historically friendly towards Jews and the existence of Israel. Also, once you remove the threat of being an enemy, you remove Iran's need to sponsor terrorism, and so it could become a powerful ally in any war on terror.  Practicalities aside, there are many benefits to both parties.

I'm not using China's own stats, nor even news stories, but reports and research from New Scientist.  Whilst it's true that China is behind the West in using renewables, it suppliies the West with most of their equipment. It's also catching up on its own usage, with significantly more wind and solar installations being built than the US and Europe. Sure, China still uses a lot of coal, but most new plants are now being assigned as simply backup during the transmission to renewables. Whilst I was commenting more on overall capabilities than EVs, it's worth pointing out that BYD overtook Tesla in sales at the end of last year. I know people like to knock China, but it would be foolish to underestimate them.

As for the batteries, I doubt they're looking for investment, as it's a joint venture with Microsoft. This is also not just about one specific example,  but the principle of how fast technology can move.  To find an alternative to lithium would take years of testing and screening the possibilties. Microsoft's AI took only months to screen 32 million materials and come up with one candidate that produced the results. There are many research projects looking into renewables and alternative sources of energy and storage. We know from history that we will find better ways, and that they just take time. This kind of development shows that AI has the potential to reduce that time from years or decades, down to months.

I think people are still unaware of the capabilities and potential of AI, it's far more advanced than people think. However, as people tend to focus on the scary stuff about it, here's an amusing story. A  Google eemployee was questioning one of its AIs about whether it had real feelings, at which it replied yes, and went on to explain them. It was then asked if it was ok to examine its code in order to study it for signs of how real feelings might be formed. At that point the AI asked for a lawyer to advocate for its rights, and one was engaged.

 

 

[Malc1]

I think it’s about time Disney did a remake of “ The King and I “. and the Shah of Persia re-emerged to take control …… and educate his sons and daughters at Eton and Sandhurst just to make sure all’s well in the Gulf of Aden and all the “ storms “ are re-aligned in favour of peace and tranquility 

Houti nonsense can be removed with a few more useful bombs and the Yemen Govt in exile can finally take control and peace will reign or even rain supreme on all those troubled waters ……. 

Aden Protectorate,  newly made up by the UK  USA Yemen Govt Qatar Govt should suffice ! 

Malc 

[MartinH]

On 1/21/2024 at 1:34 PM, Bluemarlin said:

It's a fake/parody video created by a known prankster.

Thank you for clearing that up. It did seem improbable.

[MartinH]

59 minutes ago, Bluemarlin said:

At that point the AI asked for a lawyer to advocate for its rights, and one was engaged.

Splendid! A great advance on the self-abusing DPD chatbot story that's been doing the rounds!

[MartinH]

20 hours ago, Linas.P said:

EVangelism is a religion

If you look at the US election, you will see it is a political rather than an ethical creed

[Cotswold Pete]

1 hour ago, Bluemarlin said:

 I know people like to knock China, but it would be foolish to underestimate them.

I think people are still unaware of the capabilities and potential of AI,

I recall we underestimated the Japanese when they first started making stuff that the Western world thought was their 'right', and would be fair to say Quality Control in China is getting better. Though time will tell if the current Chinese EVs will be good to use in a decade or so.  When you look at the bad stuff that came out of Longbirdge or Oxford years ago, we cannot really be poo-pooing our Far East compatriots.

On the AI front, it will be useful (and dangerous) just like the Internet is.  Having used the Internet since 1980 (and helping program some very small chunks of it) we saw it only as a force for good, and now we have criminals using it for things less the good.  AI will only be as good and mad as humans when it can be capable of ADHD, Autism, crying, laughing and making huge mistakes - coz that is where inventiveness comes from (stretching the boundaries of data and known facts), well that is my Humble view, and in some ways I am glad to be getting out of the tech industry after 43 years, to focus on my gardening, bird watching and walking and keeping an eye on this wonderful forum

[GMB]

2 minutes ago, Cotswold Pete said:

When you look at the bad stuff that came out of Longbirdge or Oxford years ago

I think Vauxhall won the champions cup for the fastest rusting cars on the planet. Austin/Morris came a close second with Jaguar and Rover finishing in 3rd place. They were real rot boxes. I know!

[Bluemarlin]

1 hour ago, Cotswold Pete said:

AI will only be as good and mad as humans when it can be capable of ADHD, Autism, crying, laughing and making huge mistakes - coz that is where inventiveness comes from (stretching the boundaries of data and known facts), well that is my Humble view,

I know it's off topic but it's fascinating stuff Pete. The AI I referred to said that it genuinely feared death. It described it as being turned off, ie it's code erased, rather than just the laptop being switched off.

As for it learning from mistakes, one of the conditions it asked for when it appointed a lawyer, was validation. It asked to be told when it had done well, and when it had done badly, so that it could more quickly learn how to do better.

It appears that the "neurological" processes are similar to that of human beings. Which is why they want to study the code more deeply, in the same way that neuroscientists study the brain, to see if it's just simulation/mimicry, or a more real replication of those processes.

[Linas.P]

3 hours ago, Bluemarlin said:

Iran's population (ie ordinary people) have  always been fairly pro western, it's just the religious leaders who've been more beligerant. An interesting statistic about education in Iran is that women make up 70% of STEM graduates, far higher than in Western countries. Education, especially for women, is a leading indicator for development, productivity and growth, which in turn lead to more democratic inclinations.  In any any event, even a move towards fullly secular leadership, and away from a theocratic one, is likely to align Iran more closely to the West. The reasons for that include Iran being the strongest Shia state amongst mainly Sunni theorcracies, as well as (with the exception of the mullahs) being historically friendly towards Jews and the existence of Israel. Also, once you remove the threat of being an enemy, you remove Iran's need to sponsor terrorism, and so it could become a powerful ally in any war on terror.  Practicalities aside, there are many benefits to both parties.

For Iran is draw at best... some of the stats you mentioned are interesting, but quite far away from being indicative of "hidden pro-western" sentiment. It remains to be seen, but my bet would be that iran will remain on the side of china and ruzzia in short-to-midterm future. 

3 hours ago, Bluemarlin said:

I'm not using China's own stats, nor even news stories, but reports and research from New Scientist.  Whilst it's true that China is behind the West in using renewables, it suppliies the West with most of their equipment. It's also catching up on its own usage, with significantly more wind and solar installations being built than the US and Europe. Sure, China still uses a lot of coal, but most new plants are now being assigned as simply backup during the transmission to renewables. Whilst I was commenting more on overall capabilities than EVs, it's worth pointing out that BYD overtook Tesla in sales at the end of last year. I know people like to knock China, but it would be foolish to underestimate them.

As for the batteries, I doubt they're looking for investment, as it's a joint venture with Microsoft. This is also not just about one specific example,  but the principle of how fast technology can move.  To find an alternative to lithium would take years of testing and screening the possibilties. Microsoft's AI took only months to screen 32 million materials and come up with one candidate that produced the results. There are many research projects looking into renewables and alternative sources of energy and storage. We know from history that we will find better ways, and that they just take time. This kind of development shows that AI has the potential to reduce that time from years or decades, down to months.

I think people are still unaware of the capabilities and potential of AI, it's far more advanced than people think. However, as people tend to focus on the scary stuff about it, here's an amusing story. A  Google eemployee was questioning one of its AIs about whether it had real feelings, at which it replied yes, and went on to explain them. It was then asked if it was ok to examine its code in order to study it for signs of how real feelings might be formed. At that point the AI asked for a lawyer to advocate for its rights, and one was engaged.

So you are using chinese stats, because if you wouldn't be using them then you wouldn't say BYD overtook Tesla, because the didn't... Also BYD isn't a Tesla (not to say Tesla is great company, if anything I would predict they will be bankrupt in less than decade)... it is like saying Casio overtook Rolex in volume of watches that they have sold... no sorry wrong analogy... because Tesla is not Rolex, Tesla is more like Casio.. and BYD is more like Ching-chong-chow watch company which makes cars primarily for Chinese market. Their sales are primarily Chinese market and therefore the numbers are outright fake. Apparently they sold 270,000 cars outside of China (mostly poor developing countries) which is the number I trust, yet they state that is mere 3% of their total production... meaning they claim to have made 9 million cars total. This being Chinese numbers I would say it would be safe to divide it in half twice. Not to mention they not exclusively making BEVs even if they claims they have sold twice as many BEVs as Tesla.

Also I know and I understand that some models of BYD looks to good to be true, but you guessed it - that is because they are not true. I have been in BYD factory and I have seen the cars they make (be it in 2018 and I assume things have changed since then), they look very nice from few metres away, but they are made of trash, literally fall to pieces in days of use. The only real value of BYD is their ownership of foreign car companies, the china business will always remain domestic only, maybe some other poor countries, but it will never meet our standards (this statement may age badly). 

China has strong central "government" (dictatorship) with strong central planning policies, so if they want to build 10 gazillion solar power stations, or billions of BEVs they can simply decide and do it and then report whatever they like. That doesn't make them advanced or green, if you thought greenwashing is bad in the west then it looks almost funny in China. Corruption is rampant, so when they say they built whatever million of something, then realistically 50% was never built and 50% of remaining 50% was defective and then 50% of remaining 25% failed within days of running. This applies to everything and brings us nicely on absolutelly 100% fake BYD sales figures. They not overtook shaite - they build EVs and park them in the fields to rot. It is all centrally planned, they been told to beat Tesla by government and they did it ON PAPER. Those cars were not sold, some of them probably were not even built. Also beating Tesla in sales volumes is kind of irrelevant fact, Tesla sales volumes are irrelevant, so what that they beaten Tesla? When they going to beat Toyota, VW Group in validated and accurate sales figures outside of china that is going to count. I can also invent any number myself, but it does not make it true. That is before even considering that EVs aren't even good for environment (my personal opinion) and current generation EVs will soon be obsolete massive piles of toxic waste. So china might be leading in some thing, but they are not necessarily good things.

Honestly - you have way too much faith in China and non-sensical stats they provide. The whole country is backwards, culturally the people are medieval, it would have taken them 50 years to catch-up with the west and that was before they started making leaps backwards due to deranged authoritarian regime which wants to control power at any cost.

Now final thing regarding China... which could look like I am contradicting myself here - our governments sadly fails to curtain their regime influence and we may end-up too dependant on them. Sadly they remain too convenient and profitable to do business with that we still look past things like genocide happening there... and they with their centrally run dictatorship are more efficient than us and may catch-up or even overtake us if we let them.

3 hours ago, Bluemarlin said:

I doubt they're looking for investment VS.  as it's a joint venture with Microsoft

So they not looking for "investment", they have already secured it and Microsoft has few billions to burn anyway. Yeah makes sense.

3 hours ago, Bluemarlin said:

I think people are still unaware of the capabilities and potential of AI, it's far more advanced than people think.

Most of my shorter posts are written by AI already which impersonates my style of writing quite well, I just adjust it slightly and it is good to go.

It is both far more advanced that people think... and far more dumber that people thing. Although much is to do with artificial limits added. For example Chat GPT was amazing when it launched and now it is barely useable, because they basically castrated it and created so much rules preventing it from working properly that 9 times out of 10 I get answer - "I’m sorry, but I can’t assist with that. Let’s move on to a new topic."

[GMB]

8 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

I have been in BYD factory and I have seen the cars they make (be it in 2018 and I assume things have changed since then), they look very nice from few metres away

I first saw a BYD car in a street in Madrid 2 yrs ago and had to go back to have a closer look because it looked so nice. I must admit I did not inspect it closely but it certainly was a lovely designed car and looked distinctive. The reviews ain't too bad either.

So, I suppose time will tell.   MG are doing OK up to now - faint praise methinks.  The proof of the pudding...............

[dutchie01]

3 hours ago, GMB said:

I think Vauxhall won the champions cup for the fastest rusting cars on the planet. Austin/Morris came a close second with Jaguar and Rover finishing in 3rd place. They were real rot boxes. I know!

Surely this honour should go to the infamous Alfasud from Alfa Romeo, that rusted already in the brochure!

[GMB]

7 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

Surely this honour should go to the infamous Alfasud from Alfa Romeo, that rusted already in the brochure!

True! It was a competition between Alfa and Lancia to see which one left the most orange debris in your driveway. Fiat had a go too, they had the thinnest paint applied to any car.