Potential LC Purchase - CANBUS

[zachkylealger]

Hi all,

I'm looking at purchasing an LC 500. I've been on the hunt for months, and a rather nice and well priced example has made an appearance in the past few weeks. I'm quite fastidious, but in all my research I hadn't been aware of the vulnerability to the CANBUS exploit. As well as being fastidious, I'm also a chronic worrier. I bought my current GS450h two years ago, when catalytic converter thefts were high, and worried incessantly about the cat being stolen. Two years later, no issues.

I am aware there has been one publicised theft. My question to you is whether it is a genuine concern or nothing to worry about. Has anyone had any interaction with Lexus UK about it or any preventatives implemented?

It will be my only car, and I'm not quite fortunate enough to have a large gated drive, so it'll just be sat on the drive next to the road. I do park with nearside next to a wall, so home theft isn't really a concern, rather parking out and about. Having said that, I do live in quiet leafy village in Somerset.

 

Thanks in advance,

Zach

[wendle]

The LC can be stolen the same way as any other Lexus models  by the CANBUS , I would fit a Ghost or similar and a visual deterrent, steering lock or driveway post.

other than that just enjoy the car, mine will probably be up for sale in April 2025. so start saving. lol

 

[eightk]

1 hour ago, zachkylealger said:

Hi all,

I'm looking at purchasing an LC 500. I've been on the hunt for months, and a rather nice and well priced example has made an appearance in the past few weeks. I'm quite fastidious, but in all my research I hadn't been aware of the vulnerability to the CANBUS exploit. As well as being fastidious, I'm also a chronic worrier. I bought my current GS450h two years ago, when catalytic converter thefts were high, and worried incessantly about the cat being stolen. Two years later, no issues.

I am aware there has been one publicised theft. My question to you is whether it is a genuine concern or nothing to worry about. Has anyone had any interaction with Lexus UK about it or any preventatives implemented?

It will be my only car, and I'm not quite fortunate enough to have a large gated drive, so it'll just be sat on the drive next to the road. I do park with nearside next to a wall, so home theft isn't really a concern, rather parking out and about. Having said that, I do live in quiet leafy village in Somerset.

 

Thanks in advance,

Zach

It’s an utterly brilliant car. Where else can you buy a naturally aspirated rear wheel drive V8 GT that sounds like this, that is so comfortable and well built, with decent dealers? Plus point - nobody else has one. Love mine to bits.

Is can bus theft a genuine concern? Yes. One LC has been stolen and recovered, the ex owner stating that’d be his last Lexus. Also have a look at the RX, ES, UX forums which are busier mainly due to there being more cars and more owners. All those forums are full of theft threads. Cars are disappearing almost on a daily basis. There isn’t a week goes by where someone new joins the LOC to state their car has vanished. They knew nothing of this canbus problem until they lost their Lexus. The common link between most of these threads is the ex-owner is planning on staying an ex-owner ie that is their last Lexus. 

Also look at insurance threads. Lexus owners can’t get sensibly priced insurance in many cases. It’s not at the Land Rover point yet, where insurance is refused point blank, but if Lexus don’t step up and sort this there will be a tipping point for the insurance industry and we simply won’t to be able to get these cars insured.

The RX is in the top ten UK most stolen. France has the NX or UX in their top ten. America has the same problem. This is a global failure.

Lexus have so far introduced metal plates to protect the canbus access point in the wheel arches for RX ONLY. Fitment is free. They’re not publicising or actively offering it, so unless you have read about it and actually ask your dealer or Lexus customer services you’d never find out about it until your RX is halfway to Dubai.

The rest of us are left to fend for ourselves. Lexus’s current position is ‘tough sh t’. I have a tracker for my insurance, but due to the canbus problem I’ve paid extra for an immobiliser, plus added stickers to warn it’s fitted with a tracker. I used trackerteam - recommended.
It is most definitely a concern.
You could also add a steering lock but based on a car (RX I think) videoed being stolen last week inside three minutes with a steering lock fitted (quiet leafy Surrey!) I don’t see the point. Anyone carrying canbus theft kit won’t be bothered about a steering lock as they’ll have a cordless ULEZ grinder with them as well.

These are wonderful cars. I honestly don’t know what I’d replace it with, but if it were stolen it most certainly wouldn’t be another Lexus. That is down to Lexus themselves.

The solution : an official recall for every affected car, to fit canbus plates, an immobiliser or revised software. Only when every single car in the country is likely to be protected and therefore unstealable via canbus will the thieves move onto something else.

As a potential buyer I’d ask if you could do us all a favour - go to your local dealer and/or phone Lexus themselves, and question them about canbus theft. Tell them you’re thinking of buying their most expensive product, their halo car, their concept car made real, but that you’re really really concerned Lexus don’t care about you as a customer because if they did, they’d issue a recall like JLR have done, and get this vulnerability fixed.

Today’s rant over. Stay tuned for more.

[malcolmw]

I would more or less echo what eightK has said. 

I live in a quiet Wiltshire village but put my LC in the garage when not in use. Although a LC has been reported stolen, it is unlikely to be a big target as it is a rare car and not a lot of use in, for example, Nigeria.

A "Crooklock" will probably give a thief pause for thought as it will take time and cause a lot of noise to remove.

I suspect your car will be more vulnerable on your driveway than out and about as thieves will survey the area for target cars and come back later to actually do the deed if your car is still there.

Why would an LC be stolen? To get the parts to repair a damaged one as everything is fantastically expensive and difficult to obtain.

[zachkylealger]

Thanks Malcolm and Andy for getting back to me. As I thought, it probably is a serious issue.

This puts me at a conundrum - do I risk the purchase in the hope that Lexus will remedy the issue soon, or back away... I suppose I could hold out a bit longer and see if there is any kind of response, but based on what happened with the catalytic converter issue I'm not holding out much hope. Now is also the perfect time to get a pre-OPF car at a good price and still have reasonable warranty remaining.

I will contact the dealer I bought the GS from and service it with to see if they have any insight, but I'm not expecting much given I'm not buying the car from them (or any Lexus dealer).

I've been after this car for around a year now - like you say, what else do you get instead? There is nothing else with a naturally aspirated V8 AND a 10 year dealer warranty, the sound or the design. Alternatives could be something like a Civic Type R or an Alpine A110, but the Lexus was at the top of my list...

Am I right in thinking it is just the nearside wheel arch which is the issue? I can park within 10cm of a wall to block access. My main fear is when I'm away from home and need to street park overnight - wouldn't happen often, but it isn't something I want to have to worry about.

[Linas.P]

The saving grace for LC is that they are simply not in demand to be stolen. The hot on the list are SUVs, that is what everyone wants, the parts are in demand, the cars are in demand for exporting etc. LC is just not that car that is on the radar, it is way to rare to for somebody to try to "legitimise" it locally, it is way to rare that somebody would try to rebuild/re-VIN a wreck, it is too expensive and not suitable for driving in Africa. 

So although technically it may be prone to CANBUS attack, it is simply not the type of car thief target. I would be highly worried about RX and NX, I have seen few ES stolen (really surprises me as to why ES?!), but LC just not the type of car. 

[BrettMRC]

The risk overall is very small given how few LC500s are in the UK, but for me the worst part about CANBUS theft on the LC is the fact they have to essentially rip off the front bumper to do it. 😞

[eightk]

I’m being a bit over dramatic but the more I read on the other parts of this site the more peed off I get that Lexus are doing less than the bare minimum. RX owners are still getting their cars stolen because Lexus haven’t contacted them to get the plates fitted. The rest of us are left with zero support.
The LC is different I admit, to SUVs as it’s so low volume, and as above, why would an LC be stolen? I’ve never seen a UK damaged car needing parts?

My guess is it’d be shipped overseas, whole, the same as the silver LC that was retrieved intact apart from bumper damage from a Dubai bound container by Essex police. I follow their stolen vehicle unit on twitter - it’s wall to wall Lexuses stuffed into containers or cars chopped up for spares.

My take is you only live once - go for it - but do all you can to advertise the fact it can’t be stolen via canbus. Steering lock won’t stop theft but an immobiliser might. I have a Scorpion Tracker sticker on the windscreen as that’s the only method I can think of to advertise that ripping the bumper to bits might be a waste of time. Other than that, there’s nothing you can do as an individual owner. It’s only Lexus that can make thieves give up, by protecting every single car via recall.

Edited to add YT video to show canbus theft

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUqXxT3CCaA

Edited January 15 by eightk
Added video link

[eightk]

Steering locks - even the good ones - clearly don’t work.

From the NX section - a 3 minute theft with a Disclok fitted :

[zachkylealger]

Not filling me with confidence there Andy! I guess the questions are: 1) Do the CANBUS style immobilisers work, is there any evidence? 2) Is it going to be obvious enough to thieves that they aren't going to be able to start the car after they've pulled the bumper off and caused £000's of damage? Having that happen 3 times on the trot probably isn't going to be favourable come renewal time.

For me, the theft in of itself isn't the only worry. It's also that if this does go down the same way as it has for Range Rovers, am I going to end up with a 2 tonne paperweight that can't be insured and nobody wants to buy for more than a fiver because they can't insure it either.

If Land Rover have genuinely fixed the issue with the 70k car recall, that means the top target is now less likely to be preyed upon. That probably means thieves will prioritise others on their list and cases of theft for those makes and models will increase to compensate (I.e. Lexus).

Like you say, you only live once and I really do want an LC, but this kind of thing has caused me a lot of stress in the past (cat theft likelihood both for my S2000 and my GS). I'm past that point now and I'm not sure I want to go back. Perhaps I'll wait a few months or a year and see if things improve. Shame because the car really is a perfect spec and a great price!

[eightk]

1 - I have a cat S5 tracker with the optional immobiliser - that will 100% prevent canbus or key clone theft as it’s a physical relay cut to an essential circuit, ghost type immobilisers will also protect from what I’ve read recently. 

2 - As you’ve said, the issue isn’t the theft, as actual theft with what I’ve had fitted isn’t possible without spending a lot of time finding and wiring out the immobiliser, it’s the thieves automatic assumption that trashing my bumper will result in success. Ideally I'd like a Clifford flashy blue dashboard light or something really obviously non standard. The windscreen sticker I’ve got isn’t really enough.

I agree JLRs pro customer decision could lead to more thefts of easier targets. I also agree a two tonne uninsurable paperweight could be the end result of Lexuses lack of foresight.

But… it’s a great car. Buy now, while they’re still legal!

[BrettMRC]

The best thing you can have is sensible, easy to live with physical security measures.

Ideally keep the car garaged with another car in front of the garage, if you have a driveway with a gate you can lock - even better.

Most CANBUS thefts are done because the thieves do not want to risk a confrontation, so if it's not really easy they much less likely to go for yours.

[Brian R]

Perhaps some context is needed. One stolen LC out of circa 520 or in percentage terms 0.19%, hardly a commonly stolen car. With the insatiable demand for SUV's or their ilk, then the LC is unlikely to be at the top of the shopping list and I'd further suspect the one stolen was something of an aberration.

[Jgtcracer]

On 1/15/2024 at 1:42 PM, zachkylealger said:

Alternatives could be something like a Civic Type R

Having owned an FK8 Civic Type R, they are completely different.  Civic is better dynamically and much cheaper to run but doesn’t sound as good and quality/interior are not comparable….

[zachkylealger]

On 1/15/2024 at 10:34 AM, eightk said:

It’s an utterly brilliant car. Where else can you buy a naturally aspirated rear wheel drive V8 GT that sounds like this, that is so comfortable and well built, with decent dealers? Plus point - nobody else has one. Love mine to bits.

Is can bus theft a genuine concern? Yes. One LC has been stolen and recovered, the ex owner stating that’d be his last Lexus. Also have a look at the RX, ES, UX forums which are busier mainly due to there being more cars and more owners. All those forums are full of theft threads. Cars are disappearing almost on a daily basis. There isn’t a week goes by where someone new joins the LOC to state their car has vanished. They knew nothing of this canbus problem until they lost their Lexus. The common link between most of these threads is the ex-owner is planning on staying an ex-owner ie that is their last Lexus. 

Also look at insurance threads. Lexus owners can’t get sensibly priced insurance in many cases. It’s not at the Land Rover point yet, where insurance is refused point blank, but if Lexus don’t step up and sort this there will be a tipping point for the insurance industry and we simply won’t to be able to get these cars insured.

The RX is in the top ten UK most stolen. France has the NX or UX in their top ten. America has the same problem. This is a global failure.

Lexus have so far introduced metal plates to protect the canbus access point in the wheel arches for RX ONLY. Fitment is free. They’re not publicising or actively offering it, so unless you have read about it and actually ask your dealer or Lexus customer services you’d never find out about it until your RX is halfway to Dubai.

The rest of us are left to fend for ourselves. Lexus’s current position is ‘tough sh t’. I have a tracker for my insurance, but due to the canbus problem I’ve paid extra for an immobiliser, plus added stickers to warn it’s fitted with a tracker. I used trackerteam - recommended.
It is most definitely a concern.
You could also add a steering lock but based on a car (RX I think) videoed being stolen last week inside three minutes with a steering lock fitted (quiet leafy Surrey!) I don’t see the point. Anyone carrying canbus theft kit won’t be bothered about a steering lock as they’ll have a cordless ULEZ grinder with them as well.

These are wonderful cars. I honestly don’t know what I’d replace it with, but if it were stolen it most certainly wouldn’t be another Lexus. That is down to Lexus themselves.

The solution : an official recall for every affected car, to fit canbus plates, an immobiliser or revised software. Only when every single car in the country is likely to be protected and therefore unstealable via canbus will the thieves move onto something else.

As a potential buyer I’d ask if you could do us all a favour - go to your local dealer and/or phone Lexus themselves, and question them about canbus theft. Tell them you’re thinking of buying their most expensive product, their halo car, their concept car made real, but that you’re really really concerned Lexus don’t care about you as a customer because if they did, they’d issue a recall like JLR have done, and get this vulnerability fixed.

Today’s rant over. Stay tuned for more.

So I've done a little more digging. Firstly I contacted the Lexus dealer I've used previously. Sales dept. didn't know what I was referring to initially but then mentioned they were aware of one RX succumbing to thieves. They couldn't provide an answer but thought the LC wasn't vulnerable. They asked the service department to get in touch, I've received a voicemail today that I'll follow up tomorrow.

I've also had a thought about the one publicised theft of an LC. We thought this was a CANBUS theft because of the recovery pictures where the front bumper was damaged:

Did we definitively find out it was CANBUS and not relay? Not sure if the LC fobs are UWB or not.

In the photos, the LC is stacked nose first in a container at a ~45 degree angle. Perhaps that is why the front bumper is dislodged and not to get access to probe the port? In the photos, the top half of the bumper is heavily warped, it seems odd that the thieves could do that in four minutes, particularly when the bottom part of the bumper is bolted in place to an under tray... This is several thick plastic components, it's not just peeling back a few clips on a wheel arch liner.

I've watched a video on front bumper removal on the LC and I can't see the same port which has been seen here (bus of contacts with two larger sockets in one connector): 

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/rx-4th-gen-2016-2022/1013835-block-off-plates-for-canbus-under-driver-side-headlamp.html

I'm no electrical engineer mind, they could just be different connectors. I don't know which have CANBUS access and which don't. It seems like the only accessible wire is for the parking sensors/indicators.

[Dingle Dell]

I have seen it mentioned many times on various forum for high value cars, and had come to the conclusion that the best option is to fit a fuel pump cut off switch in a hidden location.

[eightk]

11 hours ago, zachkylealger said:

So I've done a little more digging…

To be fair I’d class that as a major excavation event, not ‘a little digging’ 😂

The silver car that was recovered from the Dubai bound container had bumper damage and the owner also said it’d been canbus theft rather than key signal boosting. With that said, plus the RX, NX, UX, RAV4, ES all clearly having the same vulnerability and also the same basic Toyota electrical architecture as the LC/LS chassis I’d assume we all have the same problem.

Having looked at that ES photo above I’m very tempted to see if I can get to the connector location on my car. I’m away at the moment but I might give it a go at some point just to see if I can find it, maybe using an amazon endoscope with a light on the end. From the videos I’ve seen, pulling the top edge of the bumper out of its (now broken) clips is what gets you in there. Then you can force the liner out of the way a bit to get more access. The connector would only be disturbed if you were unplugging/removing the headlights.

I still think we are at risk.

[eightk]

48 minutes ago, Dingle Dell said:

I have seen it mentioned many times on various forum for high value cars, and had come to the conclusion that the best option is to fit a fuel pump cut off switch in a hidden location.

This is what the £100 additional immobiliser upgrade on a cat S5 tracker gets you - a physical relay cutting the starter, fuel pump, engine ecu or similar. It works - mine would definitely not be going anywhere if the canbus system was hacked. My only issue is it’s an invisible deterrent.

[wendle]

11 hours ago, zachkylealger said:

So I've done a little more digging. Firstly I contacted the Lexus dealer I've used previously. Sales dept. didn't know what I was referring to initially but then mentioned they were aware of one RX succumbing to thieves. They couldn't provide an answer but thought the LC wasn't vulnerable. They asked the service department to get in touch, I've received a voicemail today that I'll follow up tomorrow.

I've also had a thought about the one publicised theft of an LC. We thought this was a CANBUS theft because of the recovery pictures where the front bumper was damaged:

Did we definitively find out it was CANBUS and not relay? Not sure if the LC fobs are UWB or not.

In the photos, the LC is stacked nose first in a container at a ~45 degree angle. Perhaps that is why the front bumper is dislodged and not to get access to probe the port? In the photos, the top half of the bumper is heavily warped, it seems odd that the thieves could do that in four minutes, particularly when the bottom part of the bumper is bolted in place to an under tray... This is several thick plastic components, it's not just peeling back a few clips on a wheel arch liner.

I've watched a video on front bumper removal on the LC and I can't see the same port which has been seen here (bus of contacts with two larger sockets in one connector): 

I'm no electrical engineer mind, they could just be different connectors. I don't know which have CANBUS access and which don't. It seems like the only accessible wire is for the parking sensors/indicators.

The LC is vulnerable and can be stolen by CANBUS, there is a port behind the bumper on the near side

[Dingle Dell]

I take it from this that if you had the option at home to park it very close to a wall on the near-side and front end, you would be making the scums life a lot more difficult.

[zachkylealger]

Turns out the missed call from Lexus was just to book in a service! I'd planned to go see the LC tomorrow (500 mile round trip!). Unfortunately I think I'll have to cancel for now and hope the issue is addressed. I'll keep my eyes peeled for more updates on here. Fingers crossed another example as nice and well priced is available when (or if) this all gets sorted out. I'll stick with the GS for the meantime!

[wendle]

 think the GS450H Is the best all round car i have ever owned, i loved it, comfortable 4 door, 4 seater car, quick with good mpg, a bit of a wall in sheep's clothing.

[zachkylealger]

5 hours ago, wendle said:

 think the GS450H Is the best all round car i have ever owned, i loved it, comfortable 4 door, 4 seater car, quick with good mpg, a bit of a wall in sheep's clothing.

I've thoroughly enjoyed the two years I've had with my GS. Not an F-Sport like yours, just a plain Luxury. Comfy, great sound system (Mark Levinson), fast and it managed 47MPG (indicated) on a single-tank trip from Inverness to Taunton. I've had two years of 'sensible' though, now I'm feeling life is too short for sensible cars! Especially with the way things are going with new cars...

[Jgtcracer]

10 hours ago, zachkylealger said:

Turns out the missed call from Lexus was just to book in a service! I'd planned to go see the LC tomorrow (500 mile round trip!). Unfortunately I think I'll have to cancel for now and hope the issue is addressed. I'll keep my eyes peeled for more updates on here. Fingers crossed another example as nice and well priced is available when (or if) this all gets sorted out. I'll stick with the GS for the meantime!

I really wouldn’t let the possibility of something happening put you off, particularly when the chances are so low and the car is too good an opportunity to miss. I own a car that isn’t susceptible to the attack but it does probably get a disproportionately high amount of air time on this forum because of the concerns of owners.  You could easily read that it’s a real problem with LCs but the fact is it’s doesn’t seem to be happening.

SUVs on the other hand are another story….

[GMB]

I am just a bit puzzled as to why there are so many LC500 cars for sale in Autotrader.  It seems out of all proportion to me.

I wonder what the problem really is with them? Canbus? Cost of ownership? Disappointment?  🧐