Total Electrical Failure, I Wonder Why

[SH20]

As I write this and await the arrival of the AA at home I'm wondering how all electrical power has been depleted.   Although the car opened up, pressing the pedal and the start button I heard a rather ominous growling sound and no dash board lights as normal.  Car is dead and I can't even lock it now.  I did open the boot with the small key and noticed no internal boot lights or interior lights on with the driver's door open.   Clearly no power at all.    Decided against putting my C Tech trickle charger on the 12 volt Battery and wait for the AA.    

What I don't know is what power source starts the car up, the hybrid Battery or the 12 volt Battery.  I'm only guessing but I suspect the hybrid Battery gets the car going and the 12 volt Battery runs the ancillaries.   

So after 5 weeks and all I said about this beautiful car  it is now immovable on my drive, can't be locked and as dead as dodo.   Who knew. 

I'm hoping the issue is the 12 volt Battery which I imagine the AA could swap out but if it's the hybrid Battery then that's a big job and it's off to Lexus Hull on the back of a trailer if the AA know how to make it moveable.   

Very disappointed as you can imagine more so because if it's away at Lexus Hull I have no control of anything.   

In total this is my 6th Hybrid vehicle, 5 Lexus  and 1 Toyota  and the wife has had  2 Yaris Hybrids and clearly indicate how much faith we have in them.   

I'm glad the car is on the drive as the AA said it could be up to 4 hours although they try and aim for 1 hour for normal demand. 

Any thoughts Fellow Members ??

 

 

[Spock66]

The 12v Battery boots up the electronics so most likely the culprit.

[SH20]

Thanks Andrew that fix will be what I will hope for. 

Cheers

Steve

[cruisermark]

Hopefully its something as simple as the Battery and all shall be sorted very soon

[SH20]

AA came out and discovered the 12 volt Battery in the boot which as Andrew said powers up all the electrics/ecu's etc was down to 3 volts- Flat of course.    Power pack connected and started up but the dash board was like a Christmas tree.  He cleared a stack of faults codes and all went back to normal.  Told me to take it out straight away for 40 mins and re charge the Battery and said cars these days have to fire up a stack of electrical equipment and modules etc so not surprisingly a Battery can give up.    

Battery six years old and no evidence in the My Lexus Link App that the service history shows a replacement Battery has ever been fitted.    I'm wondering now if a some of the cells in the Battery are failing.    

I'll get into the dealer and ask for an opinion on the Battery.   If anyone knows what make Lexus use I can check my own Battery to see if it is the original factory Battery. 

Anyway it's running now.

 

 

[cruisermark]

are u going to own up to cleaning the leather with all doors open for extended hours therfore causing the Battery drain?

[Bluemarlin]

If it went down to 3v it's possible that it will struggle to now take and hold a charge. If it's 6 years old then I'd probablly just replace it for peace of mind and move on.

[SH20]

Mark I concur,  you are right.   I have spent too much time with doors and boot lid open for extended periods of time  over the last week.  I didn't check but do you know that on my first 2007 LS460  when I was doing exactly the same thing with doors open for long periods of time the interior lights, door puddle lights all went out after a specific period of time to save Battery use which now that I think about it doesn't happen on this newer LS500h, they stay on all the time.  

I had a look at the Battery and it's clearly a Toyota Battery and a fairly large one with a date sticker of December 2021.  Not sure if Dec 2021 is the warranty expiry date of the Battery as the car was registered 1/12/2017.  This could possibly mean a 4 year manufacturer warranty, maybe.    I accept batteries won't last forever so I'll ask the dealer to comment. 

Just ordered a jump start pack from Machine Mart,  a handy size to keep in the boot for £99.  This will avoid calling out the AA going forward if my Battery drains down.    

 

[Newbie777]

1 hour ago, SH20 said:

Mark I concur,  you are right.   I have spent too much time with doors and boot lid open for extended periods of time  over the last week.  I didn't check but do you know that on my first 2007 LS460  when I was doing exactly the same thing with doors open for long periods of time the interior lights, door puddle lights all went out after a specific period of time to save battery use which now that I think about it doesn't happen on this newer LS500h, they stay on all the time.  

I had a look at the battery and it's clearly a Toyota battery and a fairly large one with a date sticker of December 2021.  Not sure if Dec 2021 is the warranty expiry date of the battery as the car was registered 1/12/2017.  This could possibly mean a 4 year manufacturer warranty, maybe.    I accept batteries won't last forever so I'll ask the dealer to comment. 

Just ordered a jump start pack from Machine Mart,  a handy size to keep in the boot for £99.  This will avoid calling out the AA going forward if my battery drains down.    

 

In my Lexus ls600hl, it has a Panasinic Battery. I think that maybe the original Battery, 13 years old, is it possible as my car is the hybrid?

[SH20]

Even though batteries have a 3, 4, or 5 years warranty when you buy one off the shelf should we not expect a Battery to last much longer. If it is being charged then why should it not hold that charge all the time.  My Battery went down to 3 volts because I was in and out of it doing stuff and it's the only time a hybrid car failed to start out of a total of 7 hybrids we have owned over the last 8-9 years.    I was doing similar stuff in all the other hybrid cars I had so I wonder if it is do with the huge amount of toys this model of car has all of which need kick starting in terms of the huge number of modules and ecu's it must have.   If all these electronics have to power up then it might make sense.    The 12 month warranty which accompanied this sale 5 weeks ago should cover the 12v Battery if it has failed and if not I will be asking why not when I see the dealer.   

[Barry14UK]

12v Batteries need much more careful monitoring these days mainly due to all they have to do and if they go flat it reduces their life or can even cause them to no longer or accept a charge.  If extra drain is imposed by leaving doors open for extended periods, the Battery should be well charged before hand and immediately afterwards.  

I have always been careful not to leave the boot and doors open for long for this reason on my RX.  However, I was surprised when my radio cut out after only 15 - 20 minutes to help preserve power in the 12v Battery.  It really needs to be connected to the hybrid Battery, where provided, so it can draw power from that.

I think the lack of use, especially through the Covid shut down caused a lot of damage to 12v batteries and Lexus  emailed a general warning to regularly charge or at least they emailed me.  As I have said on a previous occasion, bearing in mind what the 12v Battery has to do, it is remiss of Lexus not to include a state of Battery voltage indicator particularly in view of the fairly small Battery.

[Spock66]

If it's lead acid it's toast at 3v and will never regain full charge, was helping my son with his car this morning and Battery is toast at 11.6v.

The difference with a non-hybrid is you will get symptoms of a poor Battery before it fails, in a hybrid there is no such warning, it either works perfectly or not at all.

[hockeyedwards]

OEM is likely a panasonic, usually it has the panasonic sticker under the Lexus/ Toyota one.

Good discussion in another thread about the Yuasa batteries, I would always recommend the Silver, never had any problems and fitted to several cars past and present.

[GMB]

6 minutes ago, hockeyedwards said:

OEM is likely a panasonic, usually it has the panasonic sticker under the Lexus/ Toyota one.

Good discussion in another thread about the Yuasa batteries, I would always recommend the Silver, never had any problems and fitted to several cars past and present.

Over the years I have had quite a few Yuasa batteries OEM and bought replacements. They have always been long lasting and reliable for me. I would buy them again without hesitation - unless something has changed recently at Yuasa?🤨

[Malc1]

Technology has sure moved apace these past decades ……. modern electronic wizadry constant drain on batteries ……. 
I well remember simplicity of the Wolseley 16/60 …… more than enough electric stuff to run a quality luxury car and of course, when Battery fell dodgy, well there we are …… the starting handle ……. instant resolution that actually worked 

So how  far and well have we moved ahead in reliability stakes one wonders 🤔

Of course they hadn’t invented Lexus then …… and the early ones seem to be quite luxurious without too much electronic wizadry to be a constant drain and worry 

Malc 

Im sure I digress eh ! 

[SH20]

For me it has been a question of taking all things Lexus for granted based my last 6 cars being Lexus hybrids and never until yesterday had a problem starting any of them no matter how long they were left in my garage or sitting on the drive. Equally the wife's 2 Toyota Yaris Hybrids have never failed to start.   I now accept that this LS has so much electrical demand on the Battery due to the multiple modems and ECU's that it resulted in me ordering a jump start pack that I will carry with me at all times. 

The positive post I can connect to is under the bonnet under a fuse/relay box and the earth can be any earthed metal bracket or large bolt head you can find so emptying the boot isn't necessary to access the 12v Battery.    The test now is will it start tomorrow after the AA got it started and I gave it a 40 minute run out or will the Battery be  shot having dropped to 3volts which caused the no start.   I see no reason why the 12 month warranty I got with the car will not cover the Battery and the fact it has a full Lexus service history thereby qualifying for the 10 year Lexus Relax scheme although I think Lexus have now dropped the actual word Relax as have Toyota dropped it for Toyota cars.    I have considered connecting  my CTek Battery conditioner but then the boot lid would have to be open and with 2 boot lights on all the time I wonder if it would ever reach full charge.  

[Malc1]

Steve  ……. I think you need a Wallace and Gromit moment to reflect on all this ……. then a Yorkshire tea brew to calm the nerves 👌

Malc 

[ambermarine]

18 hours ago, SH20 said:

AA came out and discovered the 12 volt battery in the boot which as Andrew said powers up all the electrics/ecu's etc was down to 3 volts- Flat of course.    Power pack connected and started up but the dash board was like a Christmas tree.  He cleared a stack of faults codes and all went back to normal.  Told me to take it out straight away for 40 mins and re charge the battery and said cars these days have to fire up a stack of electrical equipment and modules etc so not surprisingly a battery can give up.    

Battery six years old and no evidence in the My Lexus Link App that the service history shows a replacement battery has ever been fitted.    I'm wondering now if a some of the cells in the battery are failing.    

I'll get into the dealer and ask for an opinion on the battery.   If anyone knows what make Lexus use I can check my own battery to see if it is the original factory battery. 

Anyway it's running now.

 

 

If the Battery is six years old its probably give up with the cold snap the average life of most batteries is 3 to 4 years in normal usage, beyond that they have to be maintained on charge  and lightly used.

Bearing in  mind the national grid you have on that car your Battery as done very well and I would be surprised if it is covered by any warranty.

The connecting of a trickle charger seems difficult from what you describe so in some respects all the gizmos on the latest models are achilles heels for the batteries.

[hockeyedwards]

I think you are over thinking this a bit too much, take it step by step, the cup of tea suggestion is what I always do if I am getting wound up!

If you are going jump pack route, I can recommend a Nocco, they are nice and compact and great bits of kit. Bit extreme but if it gives you piece of mind, no problem.

The boot lid wouldn't have to be open all the time, you can gently close it on the ctek wires no issues, been doing it for years.

Sometimes if the Battery is too low the ctek wouldn't do anything, you'd need to use an actual charger and then connect the conditioner after it has been charged, but hopefully the AA charge and the drive has given it enough juice.

[SH20]

Went to the dealer who did a free health check on the 12v Battery and said it was still serviceable but it needs a long charge.  Car running ok and more use will do it no harm.  The dealer said it's more about how much time the car spends running so it has enough time to keep it refreshed rather than actual miles.  

Surprised the Battery wouldn't be covered under Lexus warranty as it would if it was within the 3 year original warranty period  It was my wrong impression when Lexus talk about their great 10 year Reflex cover for cars serviced regularly in the Network then a full like for like warranty applies but not so according to the dealer. Small print I guess.

I'll be more wary now leaving doors open for long periods but the jump pack will give me a back up going forward and will avoid using the AA for a similar flat Battery event.

[Cotswold Pete]

Reading  this document might help if your techncially minded as to what is actaully going on between the acid and the lead in a Battery.

Failure Causes and Effective Repair Methods of Lead-acid Battery

The more modern cars get the more I want to go back to riding a push bike or driving a late 90's Jap mobile

[Malc1]

1 hour ago, Cotswold Pete said:

Reading  this document might help if your techncially minded as to what is actaully going on between the acid and the lead in a battery.

Failure Causes and Effective Repair Methods of Lead-acid Battery

The more modern cars get the more I want to go back to riding a push bike or driving a late 90's Jap mobile

or in my case the affluent luxury of burr walnut and leather of my 1969 Wolseley 16/60 ……. with starting handle …… oh and lots and lots of demonic rust 🥵

Malc 

[messi]

Once a 12 volt Battery loses charge, there is no point trying to charge it up again and again, just buy a new Battery.

[ambermarine]

19 hours ago, Cotswold Pete said:

Reading  this document might help if your techncially minded as to what is actaully going on between the acid and the lead in a battery.

Failure Causes and Effective Repair Methods of Lead-acid Battery

The more modern cars get the more I want to go back to riding a push bike or driving a late 90's Jap mobile

There is abundant evidence in this doc that long life in batteries is achieved by proper maintanence and servicing. Without doubt most of the premature failures are due to the fact that modern vehicles have batteries fitted that most owners would not know were they where located let alone know how to insert distilled water.

When I was in the Army as a driver Royal signals  in the 60s part of the "first parade" (vehicle check) before going anywhere was to check the Battery level and we also carried hydrometers in the service kits.

So much initative is taken away from the individual in todays easy society that we have become zombi like and materialsticly wasteful which is why the IOP as to produce documents like this.

[hockeyedwards]

2 hours ago, ambermarine said:

So much initative is taken away from the individual in todays easy society that we have become zombi like and materialsticly wasteful which is why the IOP as to produce documents like this.

The user/ owner manual differences are what tickle me, previously you could be given instruction on how to adjust timing or valve clearance etc, now it says don't drink the Battery fluid! 🤣