Canbus theft scandal

[Japling]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13060215/Britain-stolen-cars-Interactive-graphic-targeted-thieves-list-Lexus-RX-Range-Rover.html#comments

[matefromthesea]

Kia/Hyundia owners in the US who had their cars stolen will be eligible for payments according to USA today. 

https://www.cbsnews.com/chicago/news/kia-hyundai-owners-settlement-lawsuit-thefts/

The only reason the law suit happened was because there was a Kia Challenge trend on Tik Tok! The challenge encouraged New York City to file a suit against the automakers...

Should we create a Tik Tok challenge for Lexus/Toyota to see how easy it is to steal them?

[LadyToeBeans]

On 3/5/2024 at 9:50 PM, matefromthesea said:

Kia/Hyundia owners in the US who had their cars stolen will be eligible for payments according to USA today. 

https://www.cbsnews.com/chicago/news/kia-hyundai-owners-settlement-lawsuit-thefts/

The only reason the law suit happened was because there was a Kia Challenge trend on Tik Tok! The challenge encouraged New York City to file a suit against the automakers...

Should we create a Tik Tok challenge for Lexus/Toyota to see how easy it is to steal them?

I'm in. My 21 reg Lexus NX was stolen from Basildon last week on 13th March 2024. That car was everything to me 😞 I'm not rich but it was my dream to have a Lexus and it was fully paid off. Some people can easily replace a car - I cannot. I plain and simple do not have the money and probably never will again. I'm heartbroken 💔 The irony is that the CANbus issue was aired on BBC Watchdog on the same day that mine was stolen (13 March 2024) and in response to the airing, Lexus released a statement - literally hours too late for me. Had I known, I would have done everything possible to protect my car, but I've been in the dark all this time when Lexus have known about this since 2019. I'm now left with public transport after the luxury of an SUV. 

I'm on board for a class action lawsuit. If anyone has any info, please get in touch with me.

[musicalman]

Leigh Day is investigating interest from customers to get compensation if your car has been stolen… for all those who have posted with stolen cars please register your interest

https://www.leighday.co.uk/news/news/2024-news/toyota-and-lexus-owners-could-be-owed-compensation-as-some-keyless-vehicles-found-to-be-vulnerable-to-a-device-which-allows-them-to-be-stolen-in-minutes/

[steve2006]

Is it merely a coincidence that these thefts have been discussed for years on this forum but on the very same day the BBC cover the subject a law firm then issues a statement inviting “compensation” claims?

Didn’t something similar happen after the VAG emission scandal?

Personally I can’t wait to see the TV advertisement “Where there’s blame there’s a claim” and “Our people are waiting to take your call”
 

[fezman]

Has anyone seen / heard of the enhanced security update? It was originally scheduled for End of April. 

As I posted elsewhere, I emailed late April to Lexus CR and was fobbed off with the date was not known. Dealers would be in touch. 

Might email them again and copy in bbc watchdog. 

[Pinkfish]

Hi Everyone, 

I am trying to get insurance for my Lexus RX450h after a can-bus attempted theft and damage. Basically it is impossible due to the can bus issue. Looked at selling it but the value has taken a huge hit.  

Very annoyed that I ONLY found out about the issue after the attempted theft, even more annoyed that I was blanked (not our problem) when I contacted Lexus.  I note that Land-Rover are being proactive - whereas Lexus are not.

Interested in any thoughts on the above. My losses are considerable and I am thinking of selling the car, and ways to recover my losses. 

Hopefully there are more folk in my position 

 

[Spock66]

Sadly if your car has been targeted it is likely that will happen again, especially in London.

I am lucky not to have been targeted yet, but in your position I would take the hit and look for an alternative vehicle.

[Pinkfish]

1 hour ago, Spock66 said:

Sadly if your car has been targeted it is likely that will happen again, especially in London.

I am lucky not to have been targeted yet, but in your position I would take the hit and look for an alternative vehicle.

Yes, it looks like the only option. Lexus are just blanking everyone.  

 

Two things will happen in the future. First loyal Lexus owners will abandon the brand, and second these owners, who are furious they have been let down, will drag Lexus through the courts.  This will not be pretty and I am sure Lexus will regret their failure to look after us. 

Interestedly Leigh Day are involved - always first to make money from other's misery.

[fezman]

Well lexus got back to me today - nothing of any substance. The reply to me asking when the security enhancements would be available was :

"I’m afraid exact timings are still to be confirmed. We anticipate being able to advise Centres with further details in due course. I’m afraid I’m unable to confirm a date at the moment. Please be reassured that the enhanced security enhancement is being finalised and will be available soon for impacted customers." 

It wont be available to me for my insurance renewal though - so I'll just end up paying an inflated amount 

[GSLV6]

I came back to this forum after a long break because I wanted to do some homework on a planned change from an RX3 to an RX4.  Glad I did.  It's just saved me making a £36K mistake.  I shall be calling Lexus tomorrow and asking them not to bother with a trade in.  I'll keep my trusty RX3 for a while longer, then abandon Lexus for another manufacturer.  It's the only way, short of a class action (which I believe highly unlikely to happen unless the message goes to each and every RX4/NX/LC/ES/Rav4 etc etc owner in the UK) likely to persuade Lexus to offer a bullet proof solution which will deter thieves and lower insurance values.  Nothing else will.  It's that simple.

I cannot conceive of any reality where I might go ahead with an RX4 and cross my fingers with layered security such as trackers (waste of money and time....don't stop attempted thefts), steering wheel locks (defeatable even if only by cutting through the steering wheel), steel plates and the like at my own cost.  Why should I or anyone else pay for a luxury vehicle then accept it's up to me to provide a solution to a Lexus design fault, and a grossly negligent one at that?  Brand loyalty is an illusion.  The minute a manufacturer....of anything...does something like this and treats customers with such wilful neglect and disdain is the second I dump them and look for another.  It's a buyer's market.

When their sales volumes half, and dealerships start closing around the UK, it will be too late for them to recover and initiate any meaningful damage limitation.  Those feeling snug and secure in their RX5 purchases may yet be undone when time reveals issues with those platforms.  A wise man looks back at history for lessons.  

Sadly, I genuinely believe that short of a class action actually being realised, nothing will be done of any real use and Lexus UK is finished.  Overnight, those currently owning affected vehicles perhaps looking to trade them in for 5th generation platforms may not bother when they realise their cars are worth diddly squat on the used market as insurance becomes uneconomic for them, used prices tumble etc are hardly likely, if they are sensible, to chuck a huge amount on a new model as the whole cost of ownership does in fact span the life of total ownership experience.  Only a fool or someone with more money than sense would blindly go ahead.  So where does this leave us and Lexus?

Clearly, they are bargaining on a new breed of buyer and have already written off existing 4th generation car owners.  Their whole advertising campaign is more aimed at the young and affluent.   I wish them good luck....they're going to need it.

I'm now off to study the latest guides on reliable, secure cars which offer at least something of the RX experience.  It hasn't taken more than a few minutes to discover the the XC40 and 60 are in the mix and other opportunities, perhaps for something completely different will shake me out of my RX complacency.  My eyes have been opened.

[Pinkfish]

10 hours ago, fezman said:

Well lexus got back to me today - nothing of any substance. The reply to me asking when the security enhancements would be available was :

"I’m afraid exact timings are still to be confirmed. We anticipate being able to advise Centres with further details in due course. I’m afraid I’m unable to confirm a date at the moment. Please be reassured that the enhanced security enhancement is being finalised and will be available soon for impacted customers." 

It wont be available to me for my insurance renewal though - so I'll just end up paying an inflated amount 

Exactly the issue. The security enhancement must be ready in time for the insurance renewal or we will all have to pay thousands of pounds for insurance that used to be hundreds of pounds before the security flaw.  

Lexus should pay for these increases and any other losses

[Pinkfish]

5 hours ago, GSLV6 said:

I came back to this forum after a long break because I wanted to do some homework on a planned change from an RX3 to an RX4.  Glad I did.  It's just saved me making a £36K mistake.  I shall be calling Lexus tomorrow and asking them not to bother with a trade in.  I'll keep my trusty RX3 for a while longer, then abandon Lexus for another manufacturer.  It's the only way, short of a class action (which I believe highly unlikely to happen unless the message goes to each and every RX4/NX/LC/ES/Rav4 etc etc owner in the UK) likely to persuade Lexus to offer a bullet proof solution which will deter thieves and lower insurance values.  Nothing else will.  It's that simple.

I cannot conceive of any reality where I might go ahead with an RX4 and cross my fingers with layered security such as trackers (waste of money and time....don't stop attempted thefts), steering wheel locks (defeatable even if only by cutting through the steering wheel), steel plates and the like at my own cost.  Why should I or anyone else pay for a luxury vehicle then accept it's up to me to provide a solution to a Lexus design fault, and a grossly negligent one at that?  Brand loyalty is an illusion.  The minute a manufacturer....of anything...does something like this and treats customers with such wilful neglect and disdain is the second I dump them and look for another.  It's a buyer's market.

When their sales volumes half, and dealerships start closing around the UK, it will be too late for them to recover and initiate any meaningful damage limitation.  Those feeling snug and secure in their RX5 purchases may yet be undone when time reveals issues with those platforms.  A wise man looks back at history for lessons.  

Sadly, I genuinely believe that short of a class action actually being realised, nothing will be done of any real use and Lexus UK is finished.  Overnight, those currently owning affected vehicles perhaps looking to trade them in for 5th generation platforms may not bother when they realise their cars are worth diddly squat on the used market as insurance becomes uneconomic for them, used prices tumble etc are hardly likely, if they are sensible, to chuck a huge amount on a new model as the whole cost of ownership does in fact span the life of total ownership experience.  Only a fool or someone with more money than sense would blindly go ahead.  So where does this leave us and Lexus?

Clearly, they are bargaining on a new breed of buyer and have already written off existing 4th generation car owners.  Their whole advertising campaign is more aimed at the young and affluent.   I wish them good luck....they're going to need it.

I'm now off to study the latest guides on reliable, secure cars which offer at least something of the RX experience.  It hasn't taken more than a few minutes to discover the the XC40 and 60 are in the mix and other opportunities, perhaps for something completely different will shake me out of my RX complacency.  My eyes have been opened.

Yes, it is looking like the only way to recover our losses is in the courts. My plan is simple, if Lexus do not help us, I will sell the car and recover my losses in court.  

[Tickedon]

7 hours ago, GSLV6 said:

Clearly, they are bargaining on a new breed of buyer and have already written off existing 4th generation car owners.  Their whole advertising campaign is more aimed at the young and affluent.   I wish them good luck....they're going to need it.

I'm now off to study the latest guides on reliable, secure cars which offer at least something of the RX experience.  It hasn't taken more than a few minutes to discover the the XC40 and 60 are in the mix and other opportunities, perhaps for something completely different will shake me out of my RX complacency.  My eyes have been opened.

One “young and affluent” here, new to the Lexus brand, guilty as charged…

Lexus had their highest ever sales in the UK in 2023 (the same year they had the highest thefts, as a percentage of cars in the road!). Their first quarter sales in 2024 so far are very similar - so I’m afraid there hasn’t been a crisis-creating drop in demand. Even a 20% drop would just put them back at what they were around pre-pandemic. 

Before my Lexus I had an Audi, and before that a Volvo - I put 70k miles on a S60 over 4.5 years. I would never go back. Servicing is extortionate and I had enough problems that I had to find a friendly independent to keep the costs reasonable.

I’m not saying Lexus are doing a good job on this issue (far from it) nor that they should get a free pass - but the grass isn’t always greener.

 

[eightk]

Good post from GLSV6 that sums up what will happen to Lexus if they delay any further or worse - do nothing.

JLR have been in this position and realised the only way to get at least some of their customers back (although their reputation is ruined - it’ll be decades before this is forgotten - remember Lancia?) is by direct action to fix the problem on every car they produced.

It’s not just Lexus/Toyota - Kia/Hyundai have a similar problem in the US - but it’s the company that steps up and addresses it that will keep their image intact 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/yourmoney/article-12930701/hyundai-kia-thefts-insurance.html

I’m convinced Lexus themselves chucking a cheap immobiliser on each car is the fastest and cheapest option. Short of a wholesale redesign of the canbus system I don’t think there’s another option, but I hope someone more knowledgeable can correct me.

 

edited to add JLR’s offer of £1800 towards your insurance premium following their now-£15million investment in retrofitting security to previous gen cars at risk of theft. Lexus take note - do something like this fast enough and you’ll still have customers, dealers and a brand image left.

https://www.am-online.com/news/more-oem-support-to-tackle-jaguar-land-rover-customers-insurance-woes?utm_source=LexusOwnersClubUK&utm_medium=ForumLinks

Edited May 10 by eightk
Added JLR link

[GMB]

22 minutes ago, Tickedon said:

I put 70k miles on a S60 over 4.5 years. I would never go back. Servicing is extortionate and I had enough problems that I had to find a friendly independent to keep the costs reasonable.

I had an S60 T5 (2019) before my Lexus. I gave the car to my son. He took it for a 12000 mile service and we could not believe the extortionate price - over £700. They insisted on new spark plugs - at 12000 miles - who is kidding whom?  When he said don't replace them they told him his warranty would be voided.   He got rid of the car and I felt bad about having given the car to him. BTW It was a lovely and pretty quick car. The new dealers, a big chain who bought out the old owners,  were also pretty awful and even rude to deal with.  So, no more Volvo, the new cars are electric so I don't want one anyway. No more Renault, Nissan, Ford, Jaguar, Lexus. OMG - what can I get???  I will just keep my old Lexus cars which have proved to be 100% reliable 🤞🤞🙃and enjoyable to drive.

[Shahpor]

11 hours ago, GSLV6 said:

Sadly, I genuinely believe that short of a class action actually being realised, nothing will be done of any real use and Lexus UK is finished.  

5 hours ago, Pinkfish said:

Yes, it is looking like the only way to recover our losses is in the courts. My plan is simple, if Lexus do not help us, I will sell the car and recover my losses in court.  

3 hours ago, Tickedon said:

One “young and affluent” here, new to the Lexus brand, guilty as charged…

Lexus had their highest ever sales in the UK in 2023 (the same year they had the highest thefts, as a percentage of cars in the road!). Their first quarter sales in 2024 so far are very similar - so I’m afraid there hasn’t been a crisis-creating drop in demand. Even a 20% drop would just put them back at what they were around pre-pandemic. 

Before my Lexus I had an Audi, and before that a Volvo - I put 70k miles on a S60 over 4.5 years. I would never go back. Servicing is extortionate and I had enough problems that I had to find a friendly independent to keep the costs reasonable.

I’m not saying Lexus are doing a good job on this issue (far from it) nor that they should get a free pass - but the grass isn’t always greener.

 

3 hours ago, eightk said:

I’m convinced Lexus themselves chucking a cheap immobiliser on each car is the fastest and cheapest option. Short of a wholesale redesign of the canbus system I don’t think there’s another option, but I hope someone more knowledgeable can correct me.

I do think it is important to highlight that this forum, whilst a great place, probably represents quite a minority of owners.

So, despite what is felt on here regarding Lexus' fortunes going forward, @Tickedon has it right that Lexus UK is doing better than ever:

Lexus Achieves Record UK Sales

In light of this, why would they go to the expense of fitting immobilisers to customers cars, especially as it would be quite a costly endeavor for them, with very little perceived gains?

As such, I will re-iterate my earlier supposition that the only course of action for those unhappy with the situation is to change their cars.  Although, in that case, I do feel that the costs attributed to the canbus thefts would be unrecoverable in any courts and the owner would sadly be the one who takes the hit.

[GMB]

1 hour ago, Shahpor said:

why would they go to the expense of fitting immobilisers to customers cars, especially as it would be quite a costly endeavor for them, with very little perceived gains?

That's a good point. Maybe they need to go one step further and do what Ford Motors does? That is; make cars that wear out and fail one week after the warranty expires. I think Samsung may have adopted this winning formula in the past..

[GSLV6]

1 hour ago, Shahpor said:

I do think it is important to highlight that this forum, whilst a great place, probably represents quite a minority of owners.

So, despite what is felt on here regarding Lexus' fortunes going forward, @Tickedon has it right that Lexus UK is doing better than ever:

Lexus Achieves Record UK Sales

In light of this, why would they go to the expense of fitting immobilisers to customers cars, especially as it would be quite a costly endeavor for them, with very little perceived gains?

As such, I will re-iterate my earlier supposition that the only course of action for those unhappy with the situation is to change their cars.  Although, in that case, I do feel that the costs attributed to the canbus thefts would be unrecoverable in any courts and the owner would sadly be the one who takes the hit.

I think that despite 2023 sales figures, as the Lexus security statement has only really just been made public (April 2024) word will start now to get around and if it doesn't, are prospective buyers really prepared to shell out between 2K and 5K on annual insurance?  Only those presently with RX4's who want to keep them may be painted into this corner unless taking the hit on resale but the industry knows (I put a silly low bid in for a Takumi spec RX4 with 10K miles on the clock yesterday and they offered me 2.5K over book on my car to do a part-ex....that was what prompted me to look towards this site for answers as I don't believe in free lunches existing in the used car market unless there's a good financial reason).

[GSLV6]

4 hours ago, GMB said:

I had an S60 T5 (2019) before my Lexus. I gave the car to my son. He took it for a 12000 mile service and we could not believe the extortionate price - over £700. They insisted on new spark plugs - at 12000 miles - who is kidding whom?  When he said don't replace them they told him his warranty would be voided.   He got rid of the car and I felt bad about having given the car to him. BTW It was a lovely and pretty quick car. The new dealers, a big chain who bought out the old owners,  were also pretty awful and even rude to deal with.  So, no more Volvo, the new cars are electric so I don't want one anyway. No more Renault, Nissan, Ford, Jaguar, Lexus. OMG - what can I get???  I will just keep my old Lexus cars which have proved to be 100% reliable 🤞🤞🙃and enjoyable to drive.

I've had two S60's and an 850T5.  The 850 was by far the more reliable and better built car.

My first S60 was a noughties T4 mild turbo charged petrol saloon.  The throttle body position sensor and controller failed causing a dangerous driving condition where the engine would surge for no reason.  After identifying it and reading the issue had appeared on BBC's Watchdog issue, I approached the traders who refused to help.  Volvo wanted £1300 for the parts plus labour to sort.  I refused and went up the chain of command and they eventually offered to do the work for half that but even that wasn't on as it was a design fault they'd known about for several years and done nothing.  I sold the car and declared the issue taking the hit on value.

I later bought a newer S60 D5 which went through two propshafts (half shafts) as the UJ's were relatively short lived due to the torque of the motor resulting in a clunk every time drive or reverse were engaged.  No pattern parts were available and each time it happened it set me back £750 to repair.  Then, engine mounts went, bulbs were always blowing and door power packs failed.

This all happened under Ford's involvement with Volvo.  I was considering an XC60 but as things seem to be no better with Volvo dealers than when I last owned one, I won't be knocking on that door now.  That leaves me with Hyundai, Mazda or Kia to look at.  The great shame is that Lexus cars themselves are great as are the dealerships.  It's Lexus HQ who have failed their customers and whilst I would look at a 2 or 3 year old model not affected, it seems that all models are likely to be affected as they only altered the CanBus design for 2024 onwards cars (2023 manufacture of the new platforms).  It's all very sad.  I am lucky I guess to still have a solid RX3 with low miles and will stick with that whilst watching for progress from Lexus on this issue.

 

[eightk]

I just think an immobiliser installation paid for in quantities of hundreds of installs might be the cheapest option as if there was a simple fix as outlined in the post-Watchdog statement I’d have thought it’d have been introduced by now.

Doing nothing will result in secondhand values dropping, lease and insurance costs going up and the same situation JLR was in.

[GMB]

16 minutes ago, GSLV6 said:

I've had two S60's and an 850T5.  The 850 was by far the more reliable and better built car.

I didn't realise Volvo had lost their reputation for good cars so recently. Not good is it? A pal of mine had the old 850R and it was excellent, the only real issue was that all 4 corners of the suspension wore out. The car outlived him BTW.   RIP. Sold recently for £6500. No rust!  Too cheap by far, when the suspension complete replacements were estimated at £500 per corner.

[Pinkfish]

Lots of interesting comments - thank you.

Sadly for those with Lexus cars with the inherent security flaw - they will either find it impossible and unaffordable to insure their cars. They will also take a huge hit on the resale value.  

Put more bluntly, these folk thought they were buying (sold) a quality car, with high a resale value and a legendary reliability - when in fact, many have ended up with the exact opposite.  

Lexus may well have sold a few cars this year, but when, no doubt, this scandal hits the front pages/TV, Lexis will regret "blanking" their loyal (many repeat) customers.  

I for one, will never buy another Lexus. 

 

[Pinkfish]

8 hours ago, Tickedon said:

One “young and affluent” here, new to the Lexus brand, guilty as charged…

Lexus had their highest ever sales in the UK in 2023 (the same year they had the highest thefts, as a percentage of cars in the road!). Their first quarter sales in 2024 so far are very similar - so I’m afraid there hasn’t been a crisis-creating drop in demand. Even a 20% drop would just put them back at what they were around pre-pandemic. 

Before my Lexus I had an Audi, and before that a Volvo - I put 70k miles on a S60 over 4.5 years. I would never go back. Servicing is extortionate and I had enough problems that I had to find a friendly independent to keep the costs reasonable.

I’m not saying Lexus are doing a good job on this issue (far from it) nor that they should get a free pass - but the grass isn’t always greener.

 

I have also had a BMW, Volvo, VW, Audio and yes my Lexus garage has been fantastic compared to these other top brands.  Sadly Lexus Head Office has hung us out to dry on this issue and the most expensive car I have ever owned has turned into financial liability.  

Worse, it is so vulnerable, it has to locked to the road with a huge caravan lock. Even the alarm can be bypassed.   The fact that the can bus can be accessed with little more than a bent screw driver and an Iphone is engineering negligence (Physical security failure).  This is P. poor engineering and suggests the car security was not properly tested.  Not a good look for Lexus. 

Even worse still, I have read the statement from Lexus. There complete failure to own up, and sort this mess out, is frankly insulting. Especially for those that have forked out their hard earned money for their dream car. A dream that has turned into a nightmare. 

 

[Tickedon]

Lexus sales so far this year (2024)...

Jan: 676
Feb: 429
Mar: 2758 (hello new 24 registration and lots of new LBX models!)
Apr: 1318
A sale is a new car registration (i.e. cars ordered will count as a sale weeks/months later when registered)

Watchdog ran their story in mid-March. Given cars are often on a lead time, we probably won't see any impact for a while. But given the new LBX, even if other existing customers choose to go elsewhere for their next new car, the new buyers brought in by the LBX will likely compensate...

A long way of saying Lexus UK probably don't have too many incentives to do anything that quickly - sadly!