Parking Charge

[J Henderson]

So, I just got a parking charge for the amount of £100 in the post today from "Car Parking Partnership" (googling this revealed that this is Parkingeye, or a sister company).

Conveniently, the letter has arrived 15 days after the charge was issued, so even if I wanted to settle early for the "discounted" £60, I can't.

Anyway, my main question is; I can just ignore this, right?

For context, this was for parking in a multistorey, that to my eyes, appeared to be derelict or abandoned. There were no automated barriers and ticket machines - you could just drive right on in. The place was also pitch black with no lighting, and very few other cars were inside. The lift was chained shut, the stairwells were disgusting - littered with rubbish and stinking of urine, reinforcing my view that the car park was now abandoned.

Frankly, given the state of the place I couldn't imagine someone would have the brass neck to charge money to use it, but apparently they do!

Signage on how and when to pay was pretty confusing and vague, and the one machine I spotted appeared to be powered off/not working.

After doing a little digging online, it seems I am not alone in falling for this "trap" of thinking the car park was now free to use.

My intention is to just completely ignore this, and any subsequent notices I might recieve.

The photographic evidence doesn't identify who is behind the wheel. Am I right in thinking that as long as I don't admit to being the driver at the time, they have no case against me personally? They only have who the registered keeper is?

And would appealing this charge be an admission of guilt that I was the driver?

 

Your thoughts and advice please. 🙂

[scudney]

John personally although it goes against all I stand for especially with " Rip Off Britain " I would pay it, to me its not worth the hassle and aggro, many years ago I had a £30 parking fine become £115 as I contested it and it went to court and judgment was made against me. Then there's the potential issue of a CCJ against you if you just ignore it.  Call me old or whatever you like, but if you are the registered keeper then you are sort of liable except you can prove otherwise 

[rayaans]

I would appeal on their website stating that the letter was received after 15 days to no fault of your own (Christmas holidays, postal backlog etc etc). 

They should reduce it to the lower amount. At that point just pay it. Parking eye have and will take people to court, sometimes it also ends up on your credit report if not paid and they issue proceedings.

[2ddesign]

See Martin Lewis of Money Saving Expert's guidance...

 

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/parking-ticket-appeals/

[wharfhouse]

In the past few years I've had two parking charge notices from private parking firms. In both cases I tried to appeal them as in the first case in a hotel car park I paid but was confused by the non intuitive interface of the parking machine and underpaid and in the second case thought I had paid but my payment wasn't processed by my bank and I didn't realise. In the first case I spent a few months appealing with the parking company, POPLA and the hotel and could not get this changed. The only route left was to let them take it to the small claims court and I was too busy to go through that (yes I know that's what they rely on) so after getting them to agree to me paying the original discounted rate I paid up. In the second case (which was an almost empty car park on a Sunday) I appealed that I had tried to pay but unsurprisingly this was rejected so as it was my bank that blocked the payment I gave up and paid that at the reduced rate. The sad and frustrating thing is that in both cases I had no intention of not paying the right amount but due to simple errors I ended up with penalty notices I paid for.

In my experience unless you can show that the parking company did not have the correct signage they simply hide behind the fact that the parking was signed correctly and are not interested in any reasoning - they are simply out to get what they can - if you appeal to POPLA then they have no interest in hearing anything else unless you can prove the signage was wrong and so are a complete waste of space. The only choices are to pay (but in your case you could probably get them to lower the charge to the lower amount as they prefer some money than going to court) or you wait it out (and get lots of letters and demands) and see if they go through with the small claims court. If they do then IIRC and you lose then you will end up paying around £250 total. Depends on your appetite to fight through the small claims court and the time and effort that entails should the parking company decide to take it that far. From what I've read they do have a tendency to use the small claims court when they think they have a clear chance of winning as they have a lot of legal precedents they rely on so you'd need something strong to put up a defence. 

[Boomer54]

This is a topical issue.

My daughter holds a parking permit issued by her employer for a car park managed by UK**S. They issued a parking notice as they took pics of her car not showing the permit. Probability is with the wind recently the permit probably got blown off the dash when she exited her car. I helped her appeal enclosing a copy of the permit. I was surprised when they refused on the technicality that the permit is not shown displayed in the pics. I was surprised ,because they did that on the basis of breach of contract, but as a rule you cannot claim compensation if you cannot prove loss. In this case regardless of not displaying the permit she is clearly entitled to park therefore there is no loss. Hence, I have helped her to appeal to I*S who are the arbitration body to which UK**S belong. I have also helped her ask the company to supply a copy of their contract with the landowner so that we may see under exactly what criteria the company may issue parking notices. If there is anything that denies them doing so to permit holders they are stuffed. Besides which they must now decide if they wish to have that contract out in the public domain with everything included being seen.

We may ,or may not succeed with this appeal and it may go to small claims, but that depends upon how the information unfolds as we go. Let you know how we go on.

In the past we have had a couple of parking charges dismissed when I was able to prove full payment had been made even if for whatever reason it had not been displayed. I would imagine when we have been driving this long we have all seen what happens when you leave a car and the draft sweeps your dashboard clear. Problem is these f...wts think they can use any technicality to make a sordid money grab instead of giving consideration to the simple contract of, offer and consideration, you let us park and we pay in full. End of and goodnight.

[RONNIE W HODGEKINSON]

I Can Understand your Anger and frustration John...Have you contacted them by phone and told them that the Penalty Notice was delivered 15 days after the charge was initiated and see what they say....They will probably blame it on the seasonal mail.....But They surely must take that in to consideration on the penalty notice...If you google this problem there is a website that gives you advice on what action you can take....But personally John If you can get it back to £60 i would just Pay it and get RID of the problem..For the Vast Majority of people in this situation all it does is upset you even more and cause nothing but Hassle....Another example of Rip Of Britain...  Also try to avoid parking in these forlorn car parks They are like SPIDERS WEBS I Too Got Caught entering Breich ..You Will Know it... doing 38mph in a 30mph zone Was Fined £100 And 3 Penalty points.....Hope that helps... Somewhat..!!!

[Spock66]

Given you clearly parked there and did not pay I think you have a very weak case to make.

You may be able to argue to pay the lower amount as the letter was delayed.

If you don't pay I would expect the company will escalate things and ultimately you may have bailiffs at your door demanding payment for a much higher sum (due to additional fees etc).

[Bluemarlin]

In my experience it's tough to appeal these things and win. Not impossible, but you have to weigh up the aggro vs £60.

As for the 15 days, whenever  I've gone over the allotted period and given up on fighting it, I've just ignored the demands for £100 and sent the original £60, and have never heard anything back.

[Malc1]

I would maybe ask the RAC / AA whatever for guidance …… if you have the time 

then get the names of the directors of the miscreant parking company from Companies House and find some way to BLACKLIST them going forwards 

Malc 

[wharfhouse]

1 minute ago, Bluemarlin said:

In my experience it's tough to appeal these things and win. Not impossible, but you have to weigh up the aggro vs £60.

As for the 15 days, whenever  I've gone over the allotted period and given up on fighting it, I've just ignored the demands for £100 and sent the original £60, and have never heard anything back.

Yes - when I was trying to fight my first one the hotel were also contacting the parking company on my behalf too. Every time the parking company responded they offered a "goodwill gesture" of lowering the charge to the discounted amount - they want money for the least effort. 

[Boomer54]

50 minutes ago, RONNIE W HODGEKINSON said:

I Can Understand your Anger and frustration John...Have you contacted them by phone and told them that the Penalty Notice was delivered 15 days after the charge was initiated and see what they say....They will probably blame it on the seasonal mail.....But They surely must take that in to consideration on the penalty notice...If you google this problem there is a website that gives you advice on what action you can take....But personally John If you can get it back to £60 i would just Pay it and get RID of the problem..For the Vast Majority of people in this situation all it does is upset you even more and cause nothing but Hassle....Another example of Rip Of Britain...  Also try to avoid parking in these forlorn car parks They are like SPIDERS WEBS I Too Got Caught entering Breich ..You Will Know it... doing 38mph in a 30mph zone Was Fined £100 And 3 Penalty points.....Hope that helps... Somewhat..!!!

Ditto, 34mph in a 30 zone in a van going downhill !! Fine and 3 points.

[GMB]

5 minutes ago, Malc1 said:

I would maybe ask the RAC / AA whatever for guidance …… if you have the time 

then get the names of the directors of the miscreant parking company from Companies House and find some way to BLACKLIST them going forwards 

We got a penalty for failing to display. They were right, the sticker fell off the dashboard and thus failed to display.

We paid £60 for the privilege.

Two issues:

1 Our beloved gov't tried to block these unfair practices and fell at the last hurdle being afraid of going to court. Typical tories could not give a toss and allow these parasitic crooks to walk all over us.

2 The appeals system is a joke and we have no protection from these money grabbing bar stewards who cheat the public in plain sight.

What can we do?  Not a lot. Nobody in Authority cares anyway. Unless you know some dodgy folk who can find out where they live and "explain" how we all feel.

I think one of the parasitic directors is based in Australia.

[Boomer54]

32 minutes ago, Spock66 said:

Given you clearly parked there and did not pay I think you have a very weak case to make.

You may be able to argue to pay the lower amount as the letter was delayed.

If you don't pay I would expect the company will escalate things and ultimately you may have bailiffs at your door demanding payment for a much higher sum (due to additional fees etc).

Not quite that cut and dried. The signage that payment must be made has got to be clear, So in this case there must be enough of it and it must be visible not lurking in the shadows unlit. The lettering must be clear telling you what to do and the conditions as to what happens if you breach their requirements. The signage must be of a certain size. etc etc. If I was he in the situation described I would hop along and take a few pictures indicating the company failed in their obligations to make clear that payment was required. If I felt my case was weak I might even make a low offer of £20 under strict "without Prejudice" to cover their admin costs in full and final settlement. This in itself becomes a hurdle for them in taking it to court because the court may take the view the offer should have been accepted as it is more than the court might award. There all sorts of means of making this so difficult for the parking company that it is in their interests to just drop it.

I hear the comments about angst etc for the money involved, but I have to say if I feel I am being wronged it is to me less about money and more about making sure the other party does not win an unjust reward that serves to enable them to repeat it in the future.

I think at the next monthly meeting of The Boring Men Society we may even table a project to see how many different means we can come up with to fight a parking Notice Charge.

[wharfhouse]

8 minutes ago, GMB said:

We got a penalty for failing to display. They were right, the sticker fell off the dashboard and thus failed to display.

We paid £60 for the privilege.

Two issues:

1 Our beloved gov't tried to block these unfair practices and fell at the last hurdle being afraid of going to court. Typical tories could not give a toss and allow these parasitic crooks to walk all over us.

2 The appeals system is a joke and we have no protection from these money grabbing bar stewards who cheat the public in plain sight.

What can we do?  Not a lot. Nobody in Authority cares anyway. Unless you know some dodgy folk who can find out where they live and "explain" how we all feel.

I think one of the parasitic directors is based in Australia.

Absolutely!!! 

[wharfhouse]

5 minutes ago, Boomer54 said:

Not quite that cut and dried. The signage that payment must be made has got to be clear, So in this case there must be enough of it and it must be visible not lurking in the shadows unlit. The lettering must be clear telling you what to do and the conditions as to what happens if you breach their requirements. The signage must be of a certain size. etc etc. If I was he in the situation described I would hop along and take a few pictures indicating the company failed in their obligations to make clear that payment was required. If I felt my case was weak I might even make a low offer of £20 under strict "without Prejudice" to cover their admin costs in full and final settlement. This in itself becomes a hurdle for them in taking it to court because the court may take the view the offer should have been accepted as it is more than the court might award. There all sorts of means of making this so difficult for the parking company that it is in their interests to just drop it.

I hear the comments about angst etc for the money involved, but I have to say if I feel I am being wronged it is to me less about money and more about making sure the other party does not win an unjust reward that serves to enable them to repeat it in the future.

Yes if it's a private parking company then it's a purely contractual matter and so either party can offer/accept whatever they want as there is no legal process until the parking company decides to go to the small claims court. I feel the same way as you - I was going to allow my first one to go to the small claims court to make it as difficult as possible for them (given that the additional cost of losing is only some £250 compared with the full £100 they are claiming) but unfortunately other personal issues meant I couldn't put the time needed into it to have any good chance of winning and so in the end chose to settle at the £60 after a few months of back and forth with them.

[Boomer54]

 

Forgive the cut and paste.

"With many breach of contract claims, establishing legal liability is more straightforward than being able to prove loss."

So, you did not display, if so you are liable. However, if you paid and can prove that then please tell me where is the loss?

Cut and Paste

"Just because you have been the victim of a breach of contract, does that mean you are entitled to breach of contract damages?"

"Damages are usually awarded to an injured party for losses suffered as a result of the defaulting party’s actions or non-actions. The purpose of an award of damages for breach of contract is to put the injured party in the position it would have been in had the contract been performed."

So, if you can prove you paid did the parking company suffer any loss from you failure to display?

Come on Boomers do a Churchill and 'fight them on the Car parks' 😉

[wharfhouse]

1 minute ago, Boomer54 said:

 

Forgive the cut and paste.

"With many breach of contract claims, establishing legal liability is more straightforward than being able to prove loss."

So, you did not display, if so you are liable. However, if you paid and can prove that then please tell me where is the loss?

Cut and Paste

"Just because you have been the victim of a breach of contract, does that mean you are entitled to breach of contract damages?"

"Damages are usually awarded to an injured party for losses suffered as a result of the defaulting party’s actions or non-actions. The purpose of an award of damages for breach of contract is to put the injured party in the position it would have been in had the contract been performed."

So, if you can prove you paid did the parking company suffer any loss from you failure to display?

AFAIK from other cases I've looked into the problem with this is that they claim admin in dealing with the non-display of the ticket which just happens to be £100. They have precedents that courts have agreed with them (that £100 is a fair amount) and so although you may win in principle (you paid them) as you still broke the signage T&Cs (not displaying a ticket) they still get their £100...

[GMB]

I think we all know that it is unfair and that these arbitrary penalties, just made up out of thin air, are taking the proverbial from us. But the big issue, for me at least, is that I don't want increasing threats bugging me for months and I prefer to take the easy way of eliminating the problem. i.e pay the thieves off.

But that is letting everyone else down. We should all fight these "wrongs", but we are just one voice in the wilderness. That is why we need an "authority/ government/ an organisation with teeth, but no-one of that ilk exists. Certainly not our weak snivelling government.

[wharfhouse]

10 minutes ago, GMB said:

I think we all know that it is unfair and that these arbitrary penalties, just made up out of thin air, are taking the proverbial from us. But the big issue, for me at least, is that I don't want increasing threats bugging me for months and I prefer to take the easy way of eliminating the problem. i.e pay the thieves off.

But that is letting everyone else down. We should all fight these "wrongs", but we are just one voice in the wilderness. That is why we need an "authority/ government/ an organisation with teeth, but no-one of that ilk exists. Certainly not our weak snivelling government.

Yes - once again we are let down by our government who fail to legislate appropriately for what impacts the majority of citizens allowing a few to gouge the many... 

[Boomer54]

Once again just to nitpick. The typical signage and T & C indicate a £100 penalty for failure to display a ticket. reduceable to £60 within a stated period. Now that appears to be the same penalty without distinguishing at all between people who have not bought a ticket and people who have bought a ticket ,but have not displayed it properly. In the first instance the company can reasonably say they have lost revenue from the breach and i would say that could be as open ended as a full days charges which these days is not exactly cheap in some places. This is so obviously different from the latter case of pay ,but not display, that I do not see how the company can reasonably claim the value of the breach is the same. Hence, I would argue that the penalty covering admin costs alone is actually inaccurate.

[Boomer54]

I could go on, oh do said the crowd, if the penalty is to cover admin, please tell me how. Did the company incur an extra cost that was not already on their payroll to deal with your penalty charge? I doubt it. Indeed, most of it was probably computer generated. The actual cost would have been to cover postage as all other costs were actually already incurred as part of the companies fixed costs. The only variable cost would be postage.

On that basis here is £2 and keep the change.

NB I am probably going to win The Boring Mens Award for the month with this.

[GMB]

58 minutes ago, Boomer54 said:

NB I am probably going to win The Boring Mens Award for the month with this

You will have to wait until I offer my resignation first!😡

[wharfhouse]

1 hour ago, Boomer54 said:

I could go on, oh do said the crowd, if the penalty is to cover admin, please tell me how. Did the company incur an extra cost that was not already on their payroll to deal with your penalty charge? I doubt it. Indeed, most of it was probably computer generated. The actual cost would have been to cover postage as all other costs were actually already incurred as part of the companies fixed costs. The only variable cost would be postage.

On that basis here is £2 and keep the change.

NB I am probably going to win The Boring Mens Award for the month with this.

The problem is that previous cases have upheld the parking companies claims on admin costs and so in new cases they quote those previous cases. Now there is of course always the chance that you might be able to get a different judge to rule differently but with numerous cases already upholding their admin claim it's an uphill battle...! 

[Boomer54]

8 minutes ago, wharfhouse said:

The problem is that previous cases have upheld the parking companies claims on admin costs and so in new cases they quote those previous cases. Now there is of course always the chance that you might be able to get a different judge to rule differently but with numerous cases already upholding their admin claim it's an uphill battle...! 

In truth I draw the line at arguing against judicial precedent. I might like a good 'fight' on occasion as i find it stimulating, but I also see little point when you already know you are likely to lose. I would though try a low ball without prejudice in F & F settlement.