Diminishing range on a full charge and slow charging rates

[SamHe]

Has anyone on here seen the range on a full charge keep dropping, I picked mine up at the end of November and on a full charge with the fan on the range was only 182 a month later and I was greeted with a range of 152 after a full charge, the ambient temperature is similar to when I collected it.

Also, had very poor charging rates using 150Kwh chargers on Christmas day, at about 55% and after 68 miles started at 30 KWh and dropped off from there, 20.7 KWh took 39 minutes, a second charge was after 25 miles from cold and the Battery was about 30%, started at 70 KWh and seemed to drop off quite quickly to around 30 KWh at 80%, 29.78 KWh in 35.5 minutes, last charge was on a Tesla 250 KWh charger about 100 miles on from the previous charge, started at 107 KWh but again seemed to drop of quite quickly but did manage to push 37 KWh in a little over half an hour (wish there were more public superchargers available)

The car is booked in for a check, but I was wondering if this is similar to other RZ owners experiences?

Love everything else about the car but this is a major let down!

 

[John Adams]

7 hours ago, SamHe said:

Has anyone on here seen the range on a full charge keep dropping, I picked mine up at the end of November and on a full charge with the fan on the range was only 182 a month later and I was greeted with a range of 152 after a full charge, the ambient temperature is similar to when I collected it.

Also, had very poor charging rates using 150Kwh chargers on Christmas day, at about 55% and after 68 miles started at 30 KWh and dropped off from there, 20.7 KWh took 39 minutes, a second charge was after 25 miles from cold and the battery was about 30%, started at 70 KWh and seemed to drop off quite quickly to around 30 KWh at 80%, 29.78 KWh in 35.5 minutes, last charge was on a Tesla 250 KWh charger about 100 miles on from the previous charge, started at 107 KWh but again seemed to drop of quite quickly but did manage to push 37 KWh in a little over half an hour (wish there were more public superchargers available)

The car is booked in for a check, but I was wondering if this is similar to other RZ owners experiences?

Love everything else about the car but this is a major let down!

 

All I can say is welcome to the club. I have had charging issues from day 1.  The fastest charge I have ever seen on my car with a low Battery was 68kw which tailed off after 30 minutes to a pathetic 10kw making long journeys a nightmare. I won't go into all the details but suffice to say the dealer and Lexus CS are useless and after 6 months I have no firm answers. Good luck, you will need it

[Jim1977]

What efficiency are you seeing in miles per kWh? If you multiply your recent average by the useable capacity of your Battery you will know your true range.

152 sounds low, but if your Battery is 64kWh useable, that would suggest 2.4 miles per kWh efficiency. That is quite believable at this time of year depending on driving style and use of heating.

Driving style makes a big difference with an EV as it does a hybrid. My wife likes to just drive our Ux300e, and tends to get about 2.8 miles per kWh (lighter car). When I drive it I can get well into the 3’s and have even seen over 4 on a few trips. 

We are seeing a real 135-145 miles range from a useable 45kWh Battery at the minute.

It seems Kia / Hyundai / Genesis / Tesla have EV efficiency other brands can only dream of. Our last EV was a Kia and over 4 years the average efficiency was 4.7 miles per kWh. 

 

[PaulWhitt20]

My experience in my UX300e is similar to James above.  I have never used a public charger and charge at home thus effectively meaning that I can only go 50 miles from home in winter. Occasionally I have charged at work but that was very slow compared to my home 7kw charger. 
 

Lexus EV are great for short trips but if you need to go further afield hire a petrol car. I think at the moment a plug in hybrid is the best option. I find there are no public chargers at my destination so would need to stop again just to charge every 100 miles. 

[Jim1977]

29 minutes ago, PaulWhitt20 said:

My experience in my UX300e is similar to James above.  I have never used a public charger and charge at home thus effectively meaning that I can only go 50 miles from home in winter. Occasionally I have charged at work but that was very slow compared to my home 7kw charger. 
 

Lexus EV are great for short trips but if you need to go further afield hire a petrol car. I think at the moment a plug in hybrid is the best option. I find there are no public chargers at my destination so would need to stop again just to charge every 100 miles. 

I agree Paul. For a 2 car household I think the best route is a nice EV like the Lexus UX as the daily driver. Then a hybrid for those times you need to go out of range from home charging. The best of both worlds. I can’t imagine going back to an engine day to day, after 6 plus years of EV driving it’s just a more pleasant experience. Short range EV’s are getting pretty cheap (relatively) now. But for a one car household that need to do long trips it would have to be a PHEV I think, or an EV and hire a car as you say 👍

A Genesis Gv60 / Kia EV6 / Hyundai Ioniq 5, with their 800v charging, would make long trips ok, or the Tesla route with the supercharging network, but as we need two cars the EV and hybrid route works best. 

[SamHe]

1 hour ago, Jim1977 said:

What efficiency are you seeing in miles per kWh? If you multiply your recent average by the useable capacity of your battery you will know your true range.

152 sounds low, but if your battery is 64kWh useable, that would suggest 2.4 miles per kWh efficiency. That is quite believable at this time of year depending on driving style and use of heating.

Driving style makes a big difference with an EV as it does a hybrid. My wife likes to just drive our Ux300e, and tends to get about 2.8 miles per kWh (lighter car). When I drive it I can get well into the 3’s and have even seen over 4 on a few trips. 

We are seeing a real 135-145 miles range from a useable 45kWh battery at the minute.

It seems Kia / Hyundai / Genesis / Tesla have EV efficiency other brands can only dream of. Our last EV was a Kia and over 4 years the average efficiency was 4.7 miles per kWh. 

 

My total efficiency is currently at 2.2 miles/KWh and that has gone up from 2.0 since I got the car, so I would expect the range to have gone up rather than down. Surprisingly, the heating doesn't seem to impact the range greatly but turning the fan on and off makes a significant difference. The range is disappointing but coupled with the very poor charging rates makes for a very dissatisfying experience!

I've only just done 1200 miles in total.

[SamHe]

2 hours ago, John Adams said:

All I can say is welcome to the club. I have had charging issues from day 1.  The fastest charge I have ever seen on my car with a low battery was 68kw which tailed off after 30 minutes to a pathetic 10kw making long journeys a nightmare. I won't go into all the details but suffice to say the dealer and Lexus CS are useless and after 6 months I have no firm answers. Good luck, you will need it

I have always had such great customer service from Lexus which is one of the key reasons that I stuck with them for this car, I'll be interested to see what happens when it goes in for a check and investigation in to the dropping range and slow charging.

Charger technology might be significant as well, seeing as the Tesla supercharger was much faster than the others which were BP Pulse chargers

[Jim1977]

20 minutes ago, SamHe said:

My total efficiency is currently at 2.2 miles/KWh and that has gone up from 2.0 since I got the car, so I would expect the range to have gone up rather than down. Surprisingly, the heating doesn't seem to impact the range greatly but turning the fan on and off makes a significant difference. The range is disappointing but coupled with the very poor charging rates makes for a very dissatisfying experience!

I've only just done 1200 miles in total.

Does the RZ have a heat pump for the heating? I know the BZ4X does. That certainly helps with winter range. Our Soul EV had a heat pump and the difference between winter and summer range was only about 25-30 miles. With the Lexus I can see this being more like 50-60 miles.

I suspect that the charging issues could be improved with software updates. I suspect that Lexus, being pretty new to full EV’s, have gone super conservative on the Battery management and charging curve. My hope is that as they gain real data on how the batteries perform, they may relax the parameters and let the batteries charge harder for longer, and may also release some of the unusable buffer to give access to more range. Certainly the UX has a 9kWh buffer as well as the 45kWh that are useable. I would hope they could unlock another 4-5 kWh to us.

I had a chat with the service dept at our dealer and he said they are being conservative with the servicing too, for example changing coolant, brake fluid etc every year, until they learn the optimum intervals. He said they are knowingly over servicing them. Again this is their conservative approach prioritising reliability over everything else. No criticism with that philosophy, just a shame they didn’t do all this 10 years ago when the likes of Nissan and Kia etc were. 

I have already emailed Lexus UK with some suggestions for the UX, and was surprised to receive a reply that they agreed with them and had forwarded them to their app developers and software teams. Great that they are listening, but a shame they need input from someone who has had the car for a few weeks rather than coming up with them in the first place

[John Adams]

39 minutes ago, SamHe said:

I have always had such great customer service from Lexus which is one of the key reasons that I stuck with them for this car, I'll be interested to see what happens when it goes in for a check and investigation in to the dropping range and slow charging.

Charger technology might be significant as well, seeing as the Tesla supercharger was much faster than the others which were BP Pulse chargers

The dropping range is just a fact of life with ev's in the winter. I'm currently showing 180ish miles on a full charge. Of more importance to me is dc charging speed when on a trip and the fact you can never get anywhere near the speed they claim.  A peak of 68kwh for 10 minutes before tailing off  to around 10kwh is not acceptable. I have reported this from day one and although I agree Lexus used to have exemplary customer service, on this car they have failed miserably and still have no answers. Let me know what they tell you about the slow charging when you take it in.

[ColinBarber]

Range and charging are two issues that Toyota/Lexus are struggling with, mainly because they are two generations behind the competition. Car & Driver has placed the RZ in the bottom 3 for charging speed from approximately 50 EVs (and they even got it to peak near 150 kW) and it is the worst for quoted range vs actual for all the EVs they have tested in 2023.

The biggest issue for charging is that is doesn't precondition the Battery so you get very poor speeds in winter. Not sure why you got better at the Tesla charger, possibly the pack was heating up during your journey so was at a more optimal temperature but it also depends on what SOC your Battery was at when you started your charge - looking at the charging profile on EV database you should be able to get near 150 kW up until 25% before it drops off.

https://ev-database.org/uk/car/1677/Lexus-RZ-450e

The Toyota bZ got a software update to improve range (unlocked some of the buffer and improved charging curve), has the RZ still not received that yet?

 

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g46011090/fastest-slowest-ev-charging-times-tested/

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a46175713/ev-range-testing-epa-estimates-ratings-2023/

 

[ColinBarber]

1 hour ago, Jim1977 said:

Does the RZ have a heat pump for the heating? I know the BZ4X does.

Yes

[Jim1977]

16 minutes ago, ColinBarber said:

The Toyota bZ got a software update to improve range (unlocked some of the buffer and improved charging curve), has the RZ still not received that yet?

Good question. I wonder if this is a case of Toyota testing the updates out first on the BZ before applying them to the RZ? You’d think they’d want to get them on the Lexus ASAP.

I saw the BZ update also added some useful things like showing the SOC as a percentage on the screen. The UX is still missing that. I hope the UX doesn’t become the poor relation and not get the benefit of updates applied to the RZ and BZ. 

[John Adams]

33 minutes ago, ColinBarber said:

 

The Toyota bZ got a software update to improve range (unlocked some of the buffer and improved charging curve), has the RZ still not received that

 

The RZ update has now been delayed indefinitely because of problems installing on existing cars although new builds have it as standard. This from Lexus cs before Christmas and they are waiting for Japan to come up with a solution

[SamHe]

2 hours ago, John Adams said:

The dropping range is just a fact of life with ev's in the winter. I'm currently showing 180ish miles on a full charge. Of more importance to me is dc charging speed when on a trip and the fact you can never get anywhere near the speed they claim.  A peak of 68kwh for 10 minutes before tailing off  to around 10kwh is not acceptable. I have reported this from day one and although I agree Lexus used to have exemplary customer service, on this car they have failed miserably and still have no answers. Let me know what they tell you about the slow charging when you take it in.

Will do

[SamHe]

1 hour ago, John Adams said:

The RZ update has now been delayed indefinitely because of problems installing on existing cars although new builds have it as standard. This from Lexus cs before Christmas and they are waiting for Japan to come up with a solution

That's a shame i was hoping to get that at the same time that it goes in to the dealers

[SamHe]

Does anyone know what the Battery chemistry is, I know that the newer generation of Tesla batteries (LFP) have slightly less capacity but can repeatedly go from 0 - 100 - 0 without degrading the Battery like the previous ones (LiPo), I wondered if the LFP is on the RZ\BZ because I was not told to only charge to 80% for normal use like you would be on older EVs

[ColinBarber]

5 hours ago, SamHe said:

Does anyone know what the battery chemistry is, I know that the newer generation of Tesla batteries (LFP) have slightly less capacity but can repeatedly go from 0 - 100 - 0 without degrading the battery like the previous ones (LiPo), I wondered if the LFP is on the RZ\BZ because I was not told to only charge to 80% for normal use like you would be on older EVs

The RZ in the UK uses a Panasonic Lithium Ion Battery (probably NCA). In the US they have just announced a FWD RZ 300e which has a CATL LFP Battery (this is essentially the same as the Toyota bZ which is available in two drivetrain / Battery configurations in the US but not in Europe).

LFP doesn't have the same energy density as the more traditional batteries and therefore you normally find them in short range models (e.g. Tesla only use LFP in RWD/Standard Range models, not LR or Performance). LFP does degrade, just not as much - but it cannot catch fire.

[wivenhoe]

I had to have a replacement AC charging module fitted - had to use public DC chargers for 6 weeks. It may be a coincidence, but I seem to be experiencing better range than everyone else. Perhaps the temps are not so low in North Essex. 
I haven’t changed my driving - a lot of 70mph dual carriageway and about 50mph rural roads. A week after my collection in May, my range was 220 / 180.  I use the auto radiant heaters with +2 / heated seats & wheel with occasional 27c heat for defogging and am getting about 190 which for 64kw usable is 2.9. Today for instance on only local roads I did 19 miles and the car is at 91% so about 3.3 kw / mile. 

As I had to use public chargers for 6 weeks (in the summer) I kept a record of charging - Lexus paid me £ 250 for the excess cost over home charging. I regularly used MER & Osprey 150kw chargers and did get around 140kw until about 40%. At Rugby services 150kw it took 30 mins for 20% to about 80% which is about right. I haven’t used high speed chargers in low temperatures yet. 

[John Adams]

10 minutes ago, wivenhoe said:

I had to have a replacement AC charging module fitted - had to use public DC chargers for 6 weeks. It may be a coincidence, but I seem to be experiencing better range than everyone else. Perhaps the temps are not so low in North Essex. 
I haven’t changed my driving - a lot of 70mph dual carriageway and about 50mph rural roads. A week after my collection in May, my range was 220 / 180.  I use the auto radiant heaters with +2 / heated seats & wheel with occasional 27c heat for defogging and am getting about 190 which for 64kw usable is 2.9. Today for instance on only local roads I did 19 miles and the car is at 91% so about 3.3 kw / mile. 

As I had to use public chargers for 6 weeks (in the summer) I kept a record of charging - Lexus paid me £ 250 for the excess cost over home charging. I regularly used MER & Osprey 150kw chargers and did get around 140kw until about 40%. At Rugby services 150kw it took 30 mins for 20% to about 80% which is about right. I haven’t used high speed chargers in low temperatures yet. 

Bob, getting 3.3miles/kwh for 19 miles on local roads is brilliant.  I'm currently getting 2.6miles/kwh for similar local driving.

[wivenhoe]

John. I do wonder if the rectification of the charging unit has helped. I never drive to preserve range - drive just as I would a petrol except not having the heating or ac on full blast maybe.  
My charging app is brilliant at providing data and with the trips in the Lexus Link & my tracker I can accurately see my true range and consumption. 

[dutchie01]

8 hours ago, Jim1977 said:

Does the RZ have a heat pump for the heating? I know the BZ4X does. That certainly helps with winter range. Our Soul EV had a heat pump and the difference between winter and summer range was only about 25-30 miles. With the Lexus I can see this being more like 50-60 miles.

I suspect that the charging issues could be improved with software updates. I suspect that Lexus, being pretty new to full EV’s, have gone super conservative on the battery management and charging curve. My hope is that as they gain real data on how the batteries perform, they may relax the parameters and let the batteries charge harder for longer, and may also release some of the unusable buffer to give access to more range. Certainly the UX has a 9kWh buffer as well as the 45kWh that are useable. I would hope they could unlock another 4-5 kWh to us.

I had a chat with the service dept at our dealer and he said they are being conservative with the servicing too, for example changing coolant, brake fluid etc every year, until they learn the optimum intervals. He said they are knowingly over servicing them. Again this is their conservative approach prioritising reliability over everything else. No criticism with that philosophy, just a shame they didn’t do all this 10 years ago when the likes of Nissan and Kia etc were. 

I have already emailed Lexus UK with some suggestions for the UX, and was surprised to receive a reply that they agreed with them and had forwarded them to their app developers and software teams. Great that they are listening, but a shame they need input from someone who has had the car for a few weeks rather than coming up with them in the first place

 

I find the whole RZ story painful to be honest. The above remarks are just unbelievable and makes me think both the Toyota and Lexus models are underdeveloped and brought to market in a rush. The BZ4X seems to be an average car and comes to the bottom of almost every EV statistic. The Lexus, beeing a premium product, should have been one step up but it isnt. Even the introduction of the BZ was a disaster plagued with wheels coming loose, airbag and software recalls. Toyota corp basically ignored the BEV market and still seems to do so. Lots of marketing speak but the reality is they want to produce 250.000 BEVs in 2026 from a total of 6 million cars. The plan is for Lexus to go full BEV and one can only hope they up their game with at least 800v charging and a wltp of 450 miles. Not even sure if the current first generation BEV will be supported/developed further as i would not be surprised they will be replaced in 2026 alltogether.

 

 

 

[PDM]

On 12/28/2023 at 11:02 AM, Jim1977 said:

 

I have already emailed Lexus UK with some suggestions for the UX, and was surprised to receive a reply that they agreed with them and had forwarded them to their app developers and software teams. Great that they are listening, but a shame they need input from someone who has had the car for a few weeks rather than coming up with them in the first place

Wow, the software intern is going to be very busy indeed! Now they have Lexus Link+ to fix, CANbus encryption to back port into old models, Radly internet radio to resurrect, wireless android auto to implement on new vehicles, and now some upgrades to the UX software!

On a more serious note, I have filed many detailed bug reports for the infotainment systems and not a single one got actioned, so it would be wise to have "realistic" expectations for software improvements.

Paul

 

 

[Jim1977]

1 hour ago, PDM said:

Wow, the software intern is going to be very busy indeed! Now they have Lexus Link+ to fix, CANbus encryption to back port into old models, Radly internet radio to resurrect, wireless android auto to implement on new vehicles, and now some upgrades to the UX software!

On a more serious note, I have filed many detailed bug reports for the infotainment systems and not a single one got actioned, so it would be wise to have "realistic" expectations for software improvements.

Paul

 

 

Likely very true Paul, I won’t hold my breath, but worth feeding back in the hope someone listens….

[PDM]

39 minutes ago, Jim1977 said:

Likely very true Paul, I won’t hold my breath, but worth feeding back in the hope someone listens….

Agreed - if we keep pushing perhaps they will action some of it...

Cheers,

Paul

[SamHe]

Update: I was told by my dealership that the software update will address the range issue and the charging rate issue, they have just received the updates so they will be in a position to install that when my car goes in to get its spare key programmed - fingers crossed that it does sort out this issue

Also, off topic but, they will have the locking wheel bolts as well