Ls rear wheel drive

[Newbie777]

Hello 

Just wondering owners of the Ls460 rear wheel drive, how is drivibg the car in the winter?.

Here in the UK the big mercs and bmws struggle.

[NemesisUK]

It's not rear wheel drive or the car, it's all about tyres. Winter or all season tyres will allow the car's systems to perform as designed.

[Malc1]

In my assorted Ls400s over the years ( on whatever tyres ) I’ve NEVER  been able to happily satisfactorily safely drive the cars in snow and ice …… they have a mind of their own it seems 🤔

Just left them at home on those rare occasions 

I contrast my 2006 AWD Honda Legend which performs so well in such weather  ……. whatever the tyres 

Malc 

[Spock66]

My experience of rear wheel drive cars in snow is not a good mix, especially an automatic with wide tyres and a bit of power.  Slight touch on the throttle one wheel spins like crazy and the other wheel does nothing, maybe if you have an LSD you stand a better chance.  Not sure tyre choice makes much difference either as all the grooves soon get clogged up with snow.

[NemesisUK]

Family and friends drive their RWD Mercedes and BMWs all over southern Germany and the Alps throughout winter and never have a problem. Winter tyres used to be mandatory but now just recommended but should one be involved in an incident that the police believe was contributed to by not having winter tyres they throw the book at you!

Tyres are everything when driving in adverse conditions.

[ColinBarber]

9 hours ago, Spock66 said:

Not sure tyre choice makes much difference either as all the grooves soon get clogged up with snow.

I assume you have never driven with winter tyres in the snow?

[dutchie01]

1 hour ago, NemesisUK said:

Family and friends drive their RWD Mercedes and BMWs all over southern Germany and the Alps throughout winter and never have a problem. Winter tyres used to be mandatory but now just recommended but should one be involved in an incident that the police believe was contributed to by not having winter tyres they throw the book at you!

Tyres are everything when driving in adverse conditions.

And the insurance withdraws cover its all in the smallprint

[dutchie01]

32 minutes ago, ColinBarber said:

I assume you have never driven with winter tyres in the snow?

Wintertyres are totally different than summers. The rubber is different it stays soft at low temp while summers become rock hard. The profile and depth of the grooves secure grip in snow of all sorts bar iced roads that when you have to visit a local pub and leave the car!

Jokes aside the difference is simply unbelievable. Summers in snow just no grip and outright dangerous and on winters you simply plow on RWD FWD or AWD. My IS250 had a snow button that worked miracles. Making sure there is less power to the wheels by driving off in 2nd or 3rd and not revving abobe 2500rpm. Then on top of that the abs and tractioncontrol kicking in. 

[Newbie777]

Thanks guys some interesting comments.

I totally agree winter tyres make a bog difference but traction in rear drive cars, with a lot of power can be more difficult?

I remember late 70s, people in the UK drove in  the snow with chains!

Also with AWD you do get more grip and control, however those inexperienced drivers with AWD (like range rovers etc) do not understand that AWD  vehicles are always heavier vehicles and that means braking.. oh well , exoect the vehicle to lunge forward.

[Malc1]

AWD can be in “ordinary” saloon cars too …… like my 2006 3.5ltr Honda Legend ….. just an ordinary looking saloon car that is, I s’pose a tad the exception but nonetheless an ordinary looking but now old fashioned car ….. with AWD ….. and simple ordinary tyres too 

Snow chains would be useful on the Ls400 but hey, my Kent weather rarely reaches the point where the car voluntarily  stays “ put “ and I stay indoors 

extra coffee and mince pies Vicar 👌

Malc 

[NemesisUK]

1 hour ago, Newbie777 said:

I remember late 70s, people in the UK drove in  the snow with chains!

I used to put 2 or 3 paving slabs in the boot to aide traction, worked very well 🤠

There was a brief period where studded tyres were the thing to have, great on compacted snow or ice but lethal on dry roads! Think they got banned after one season?

[ColinBarber]

12 minutes ago, NemesisUK said:

I used to put 2 or 3 paving slabs in the boot to aide traction, worked very well 🤠

I once owned a Capri - paving slabs or a bag of cement was needed in the summer 

[ColinBarber]

3 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

Wintertyres are totally different than summers.

Agreed, although I think you quoted the wrong person.

[Spock66]

4 hours ago, ColinBarber said:

I assume you have never driven with winter tyres in the snow?

Only Michelin Cross Climates on a Chrysler 300C.

[ColinBarber]

16 minutes ago, Spock66 said:

Only Michelin Cross Climates on a Chrysler 300C.

Michelin CCs are great year round for the UK, but something like the Michelin Alpin 5 perform much better in the snow - you still need to take it easy though.

[Linas.P]

20 hours ago, Newbie777 said:

Hello 

Just wondering owners of the Ls460 rear wheel drive, how is drivibg the car in the winter?.

Here in the UK the big mercs and bmws struggle.

People in UK indeed struggle to drive in winter, but that has nothing to do with driving wheels. Brits simply don't know how to drive on slippery roads... sorry that is just a fact. And I am not saying British drivers are worse than drivers in other countries, however in UK you simply don't have "winters". Yes some snow drops for few days in few places, but that is not a winter, so simply said average British driver does not have an opportunity to develop skills and experience driving in winter conditions. It always causes me hysterical laugh when two snowflakes drops and there is carnage outside, as if it some sort of end of the world. And also - I am not saying there are no good British drivers who are million times better than me on the snow, however they likely learned those skills outside of UK, or in other ways (like being rally drivers, off-roading etc.)

And secondly - I am not convinced tyres actually helps in this situation, they kind of do, but skill absence can make it worse as well. First of all we need to understand what type of situations you are likely to encounter in UK - sludge, black ice, packed snow and generally wet roads. Deep snow (and no - 2 inches isn't a deep snow) is not consideration in UK, nor is "dry" ice. You generally can drive on summer tyres on sludge and wet roads just fine, it is a matter of experience, but that does not require special tyres. Yes summer tyres start losing their properties below 6C and are useless below 0C. But if you have sludge or water that means 100% it is above 0C. All-season tyres by virtue of their softer compound and by deeper grooves have slight advantage below 6C, but here is where everyone get it wrong. All-season are NOT winter tyres and below 0C there is absolutelly no difference whenever you have summer or all-season. So let's say outside is -2C and there is packed snow, you can drive on that in neither summer, nor All-seasons. Even more common example - black ice, that is you have puddle, temperature drops to -1C and usually on the bridges black ice forms... no tyres will help you with this (not even true winter tyres), so one just has to be mindful of this and be prepared to deal with it. There are spiked winter tyres, but they generally are designed for "dry ice", that is when temps drops to say -10C and stays for a long time, then you may get strong ice forming and you need spiked tyres to drive on it, in UK there are simply never such circumstances and metal spikes falls out as soon as you hit the dry asphalt, I don't know if they are even legal to drive in UK.

So what usually happens in UK - people fit All-Season tyres and they think they are invincible, because they have "winter tyres", they hit black ice and the only difference tyres makes is that they are going at much higher speed completely oblivious to their predicament. Also - driving wheels makes absolutelly no difference, all the same rules applies whenever you driving RWD car in dry or wet or slippery conditions. So if you know how to handle oversteer in dry, then you will know how to handle it in slippery conditions as well. It is a matter of skill and experience, not driving wheels and not tyres. At least not in UK. There are countries that regularly has REAL winter and generally those countries have mandatory winter tyre regulations and conditions there means it is matter of tyres and not matter of skill, in UK there are no winters.

If you look statistically, then you will be surprised that majority of crashes in "winter" happens to SUVs which most of the time are FWD or even AWD, so to say that RWD struggles is not really true. People just don't know how to drive in winter, do not choose safe speed for conditions and lose control, and tyres are not silver bullet either. 

Now to be fair UK is very wet country and roads here are horrible, all year round, dirty, covered in mud and leaves, surface rough etc. So it does make sense to use All-Season tyres, or what I usually do - I use A-Rated for Wet summer tyres. In UK honestly the wet rating is the most important and I never had issues with them in 14 years, I never change to winter tyres, but if I need to replace tyres then I try to do it in autumn. Anything below 3mm is asking for trouble. 

I know this post sounds passive aggressive, if not outright condescending, but I have grown-up and learned to drive in country with 3 months of actual winter where temperatures below -10C are common for months and even few weeks with -20C even few days as low as -35C, so I cringe every time when temps get to single digits in UK (positive single digits) and people struggle with driving. Yet I would be completely useless driving in desert dunes probably and Arabs would cringe looking at me driving, so it is just a matter of skill and conditions that enables certain skills to develop. In summary - to drive safely in winter one needs to develop skills and have experience for it, predict dangers and drive appropriately, this is not skill one can acquire in UK. Tyres helps, but only to certain degree, weather in UK does not get too bad to actually need any special tyres, but All Seasons will help a little bit assuming one has basic understanding of what they are doing and what are the risk. 

[Newbie777]

33 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

People in UK indeed struggle to drive in winter, but that has nothing to do with driving wheels. Brits simply don't know how to drive on slippery roads... sorry that is just a fact. And I am not saying British drivers are worse than drivers in other countries, however in UK you simply don't have "winters". Yes some snow drops for few days in few places, but that is not a winter, so simply said average British driver does not have an opportunity to develop skills and experience driving in winter conditions. It always causes me hysterical laugh when two snowflakes drops and there is carnage outside, as if it some sort of end of the world. 

And secondly - I am not convinced tyres actually helps in this situation, they kind of do, but skill absence they can make it worse as well. First of all we need to understand what type of situations you are likely to encounter in UK - sludge, black ice, packed snow and generally wet roads. Deep snow (and no - 2 inches isn't a deep snow) is not consideration in UK, nor is "dry" ice. You generally can drive on summer tyres on sludge and wet roads just fine, it is a matter of experience, but that does not require special tyres. Yes summer tyres start losing their properties below 6C and are useless below 0C. But if you have sludge or water that means 100% it is above 0C. All-season tyres by virtue of their softer compound and by deeper grooves have slight advantage below 6C, but here is where everyone get it wrong. All-season are NOT winter tyres and below 0C there is absolutelly no difference whenever you have summer or all-season. So let's say outside is -2C and there is packed snow, you can drive on that in neither summer, nor All-seasons. Even more common example - black ice, that is you have puddle, temperature drops to -1C and usually on the bridges black ice forms... no tyres will help you with this (not even true winter tyres), so one just has to be mindful of this and be prepared to deal with it. There are spiked winter tyres, but they generally are designed for "dry ice", that is when temps drops to say -10C and stays for a long time, then you may get strong ice forming and you need spiked tyres to drive on it, in UK there are simply never such circumstances and metal spikes falls out as soon as you hit the dry asphalt, I don't know if they are even legal to drive in UK.

So what usually happens in UK - people fit All-Season tyres and they think they are invincible, because they have "winter tyres", they hit black ice and the only difference tyres makes is that they are going at much higher speed completely oblivious to their predicament. Also - driving wheels makes absolutelly no difference, all the same rules applies whenever you driving RWD car in dry or wet or slippery conditions. So if you know how to handle oversteer in dry, then you will know how to handle it in slippery conditions as well. It is a matter of skill and experience, not driving wheels and not tyres. At least not in UK. There are countries that regularly has REAL winter and generally those countries have mandatory winter tyre regulations and conditions there means it is matter of tyres and not matter of skill, in UK there are no winters.

If you look statistically, then you will be surprised that majority of crashes in "winter" happens to SUVs which most of the time are FWD or even AWD, so to say that RWD struggles is not really true. People just don't know how to drive in winter, do not choose safe speed for conditions and lose control, and tyres are not silver bullet either. 

Now to be fair UK is very wet country and roads here are horrible, all year round, dirty, covered in mud and leaves, surface rough etc. So it does make sense to use All-Season tyres, or what I usually do - I use A-Rated for Wet summer tyres. In UK honestly the wet rating is the most important and I never had issues with them in 14 years, I never change to winter tyres, but if I need to replace tyres then I try to do it in autumn. Anything below 3mm is asking for trouble. 

I know this post is passive aggressive, but I grown-up and learned to drive in country with 3 months of actual winter where temperatures below -10C are common for months and even few weeks with -20C even few days as low as -35C, so I cringe every time when temps get to single digits in UK (positive single digits) and people struggle with driving. But in summary - to drive safely in winter one needs to develop skills and have experience for it, predict dangers and drive appropriately, this is not skill one can acquire in UK. Tyres helps, but only to certain degree, weather in UK does not get too bad to actually need any special tyres, but All Seasons will help a little bit assuming one has basic understanding of what they are doing and what are the risk. 

Well said Linas P.

I totally agree with you, in the UK drivers still drive ghe Sam in hhe wet and snow. Not understanding braking and distance?

I have  a question on tyres, what us best for winter brand new budget tyres or secondhand or used premium tyres with say 5mm tread in them?

thankd

[GMB]

1 hour ago, Newbie777 said:

I have  a question on tyres, what us best for winter brand new budget tyres or secondhand or used premium tyres with say 5mm tread in them?

Neither  IMHO.  Good tyres from a reputable manufacturer only. Secondhand tyres are an unknown quantity. Linas makes some very good points although I think he is preaching to the converted / educated of a certain age. But good common sense none the less.

[Malc1]

1 hour ago, Newbie777 said:

Well said Linas P.

I totally agree with you, in the UK drivers still drive ghe Sam in hhe wet and snow. Not understanding braking and distance?

I have  a question on tyres, what us best for winter brand new budget tyres or secondhand or used premium tyres with say 5mm tread in them?

thankd

I’ve found my preferred not budget nor premium brand to be Falken BUT I now understand there’s a huge variety of these specifics too ….. so no idea which of their offerings are best 

I have used Maxxiss? All Seasons Tyres and they are a bit “ hard “ but never wear out, like Pirelli’s only much less expensive …… 2nd hand tyres could be challenging but I am aware some may be brilliant owing to certain countries insisting both wheels tyres on an axle MUST be changed at times irrespective of the condition of the “good” tyre remaining ….. so a bargain may be got !  

As I said ….. snow and ice and the Ls400 goes to bed and I have another coffee …… until those challenging road conditions vanish 

if I lived in Scotland I’d worry much more …… and do lots more research like you are now and probably get myself a huge Toyota 4ltr All Terrain thingy to get out and about….. and back safely in all conditions 

Whatever the answer is heaven alone knows …… but it might not be inexpensive 🤔

Malc

 

[Linas.P]

3 hours ago, Newbie777 said:

I have  a question on tyres, what us best for winter brand new budget tyres or secondhand or used premium tyres with say 5mm tread in them?

That is hard question with many answers. I would right away discount budget tyres - they are just not good. For summer tyres some of budgets are "alright", but they simply fail on longevity and that kind of defeats the purpose of "budget" tyres. So let's say on Michelin one can drive 36,000miles, on budget tyres one can drive 12,000 miles, therefore if Michelin costs £300 and budget costs £100 they costs THE SAME. However, most of the time budgets are only 30-50% cheaper, so as paradoxical as it sounds - it is cheaper to buy premium tyres. 

Winter tyres in my opinion are more difficult to get right, so if budget brands can't make summer tyres, they have no chance of making winter tyres. 

Second hand tyres are also complicated topic, I did calculations and they just don't work out when it comes to cost. The problem is purely miles/£, so let's say new tyre is £100, used tyre is £50... new tyre comes at 8.8mm thread, used tyre had 4.5mm. On the surface looks like fair deal, but that is ignoring the fact that you need 2-2.5mm of thread before replacing the tyre. So 4.5mm is not 50%, it is more like 25% and even at that we know that worn tyre perform worse than new, so last 50% of the thread is not as good as first 50% of the thread. As such if new tyre at 8.8mm is worth £100, then used tyre at 4.5mm should only be worth maybe £20. Yet I can see Michelin PS4s and CC2s with 4-6mm thread left selling for £90, which is just ridiculous and makes no sense. I believe CC2 depending on side comes with ~9.3mm thread, so by the time it is 5mm, it is 70% worn. So if new tyre is £150, then how comes 70% worn tyre still costs £90?!

So it seems budgets and used tyres are not an option... this leaves just just new and premium or mid-range tyres.

For winters I would advise to look at Nokian, Hankook and Gislaved tyres (they are not known in UK, but they are strong in winter tyre sector), or indeed premium brands. All the premium brands are fine as well. 

[Linas.P]

1 hour ago, Malc1 said:

I have used Maxxiss?

I have Maxxis on one set and Falken FK510 on the other now. Both are made by Sumitomo Rubber Corp. Also Sumitomo now has their own branded tyres. They are by no means premium, but they are reputable mid-range (Sumitomo and Maxxis that is). Falken are considered premium nowadays, but I reckon they are a step short from real premium tyres like Goodyear, Continental and Michelin. Although they are very compelling against Pirelli and Bridgestone. 

So yeah - if one is looking to save money I think Maxxis and Sumitomo are safe bets (they are not dangerous chinesium tyres, they are fairly decent). Other ones worth - Uniroyal, Sava, Debica, Cooper... but they don't have much "penetaration" into British market and often price does not make sense. But they are decent tyres made by Michelin/Goodyear under different names. 

[dutchie01]

never use second hand tyres for the simple reason you dont know the history. Could be from a write off big bang accident and internal thread could be damaged. Dont save money on safety. Btw, like Linas said you think you are cheaper but as it is an inferior product you will have to buy new ones really soon. Another topic is brake distance. no comparison between A and C brands. Best to surf the net look for an offer of a quality brand like pay 3 get 4 and go for it

[Malc1]

2nd hand replacement tyres might or should be the preserve of car dealers who have to save ££££ to shod a sales car at minimum cost to maximise their profit 

The car buyer, us punters,  might never know ! 

Malc 

[Newbie777]

Interesting..

On my other cars I have all Hankook on the VW Golf and Sport Maxx GT on my Bentley (all bought new).

In the Lexus the front two are Michellns and the back two are Bridgestone, they all have about 5mm to 6mm 

The question on the tyre is would it be worth buying two 6mm  Michelins secondhand now ( to use as back 2) and then replace all tyres with 4 brand new Michellins, when they are near 3mm.

But I guess I should just buy two new Michellins now (buy 2 more new ones again later) and use one of the Bridgestones as the spare.

[Malc1]

5 minutes ago, Newbie777 said:

Interesting..

On my other cars I have all Hankook on the VW Golf and Sport Maxx GT on my Bentley (all bought new).

In the Lexus the front two are Michellns and the back two are Bridgestone, they all have about 5mm to 6mm 

The question on the tyre is would it be worth buying two 6mm  Michelins secondhand now ( to use as back 2) and then replace all tyres with 4 brand new Michellins, when they are near 3mm.

But I guess I should just buy two new Michellins now (buy 2 more new ones again later) and use one of the Bridgestones as the spare.

You actually have a spare rather than a space saver ?

Malc