Issue with winter tyres *Michelin Alpin6*

[Sundance]

14 hours ago, DBIZO said:

After reading this thread, I really am looking forward to my swap to a set of Bridgestone Turanza All Season 6...what could go wrong, right.

Er ... symmetry maybe? 😂

[LenT]

3 hours ago, Mr_Groundhog said:

Said I would keep you guys posted and I am: the Michelin UK contact person replied correcting himself:

He can now turn his attention to the Michelin website where he will see this illustration showing the Primacy 4 as an example of a symmetrical tyre!

Asymmetric, Symmetrical and Directional tread patterns

 

[Juicedrinker]

On 11/21/2023 at 6:08 PM, ekirilov said:

Hi guys, 

thank you for the discussion so far. After 1 working day of reading all kinds of sources on wheel allignment, tyre types, suspencion setup, etc., I have some updates. 
Basically I was wondering in the beginning, if my IS300h can even have tyres that are anything but asymetrical, and that the model is not suitable for Michelin, Continental ... etc. 
Basically, I am almost 100% sure that the tyres are fine, pressure is fine and alignment is done. However, I will go to another tyre shop and request another balancing, since I suspect it might not have been done correctly. 
If this is not the case, I will check on my appointment with my local dealer on 5-th December and we will see. 
I've heard from the guy who sold me the car, who is selling 2nd hand Lexus cars mainly, and he confirmed about multiple ISs with Michelin tyres, without any issues. 
I will continue with my hustle and in the meantime will keep you posted! 

Sorry to jump i on this late but I had Michelin Cross Climates on my last IS for 4 years and did over 30k miles and they were absolutely brilliant.  No pull to left or right, great in wet and especially snow.  From what you had been told the tread pattern of a Cross Climate should not have been ok - but in fact it was and I am about to get them fitted to my RC300H.

[LenT]

18 minutes ago, Juicedrinker said:

I had Michelin Cross Climates on my last IS for 4 years and did over 30k miles and they were absolutely brilliant. 

I think they pretty much set the standard for all-season tyres.

We have them on our other car - a small 4x4 - and I would have had them on my IS250.  Except…it has 18” wheels and different size tyres back and front.  At the time, Michelin only did one of the sizes, so it was a set of Goodyear Eagle F1 instead.

[Mr_Groundhog]

1 hour ago, LenT said:

He can now turn his attention to the Michelin website where he will see this illustration showing the Primacy 4 as an example of a symmetrical tyre!

Asymmetric, Symmetrical and Directional tread patterns

Damn @LenT , I didn't include this bit but I will in subsequent emails.

@Sundance your diagram addresses my point too: the illustration on the right shows how the tyres on each side are a mirror match of each other, not the same. This is what I try to show in my last illustration: it should be like in B not like in A (and the image you shared is an example of B)

 

[Mr_Groundhog]

On 11/27/2023 at 6:42 AM, Sundance said:

That's good, just as we thought earlier then. So let's not over-complicate this and accept the fact that Primacy 4 are indeed asymmetrical. What's left that's not to like?

I think I'm not very good at explaining the problem.

Or at least what seems a problem for me

I have used your own diagram, in case that helps:

• A (as per your diagram) is correct, and how I understand it should be.
• B is how it currently is, and that's what I'm trying to say. Again, they all show "outside" and no rotation direction.

[Juicedrinker]

On 11/27/2023 at 5:10 PM, LenT said:

I think they pretty much set the standard for all-season tyres.

We have them on our other car - a small 4x4 - and I would have had them on my IS250.  Except…it has 18” wheels and different size tyres back and front.  At the time, Michelin only did one of the sizes, so it was a set of Goodyear Eagle F1 instead.

Sorry only just seen your message.  Its interesting as I have experience of both Cross Climates+ and also of Goodyear Vector 4 Seasons (Gen 1 & 2).  For all year round use as of course all seasons are intended for the Michelins are brilliant as an all rounder however that being said on the two different cars (RWD and FWS) that my partner has had that I've used Vector 4 Seasons on over 8 years there is a clear difference when it comes to more severe winter ands heavy rain.  The 4 seasons are clearly a winter tyre with summer 'modification' rather than the Michelin being a summer tyre with winter modification.  Luckily my partner only does very low mileage because the 4 seasons do have more noticeable wear if used during Spring and Summer whereas the Michelins (as you will know) last for ages!  As we have particularly bad standing water in the area that I commute daily and its also often very cold due to altitude changes I decided to go for 4 seasons Gen 3 as they have incredible ability in the wet and very good in snow.  I will then switch back to the Bridgestones in March / April.  Fortunately for me I have a friend who has a tyre company so swapping them over each time is minimal cost and done at my home.  

[ekirilov]

Hi guys, my suffering continues. I went to another tyre place and the issue with the pulling right was gone. I drove the car for 1 week and everything was fine ... until yesterday. 
I saw that the front tyres were put backwards ... they were put with the tread going the oposite direction as of the tyre manufacturer's recommendations. 
On the photos attached, you can see the front tyre photographed from the front. 
As of now, I drove the car during lot of rain here in the Netherlands and during braking, cornering, etc., didn't notice anything particular about the handling and the traction. Basically I was not aware they were backwards at all. The rears though are going according to the recommended direction from Michelin. 
So I was wondering, do you think there might be any issues if I drove it like that during the winter? Sadly, I've cancelled my appointment at Lexus and I will wait for a new one at least for 2-3 weeks. 
On Monday I will visit the garage to get their explanation about their decision but I assume they will tell me that everything should be allright. 
Is it common that direcrional tyres may be placed backwards on the front for RWD cars? And is there going to be security issues with my braking/ traction at higher speeds? I was not able to find any particular info online about that matter. Somehow though, for now I feel the car behaving perfectly, even the fuel consumtion is + 1L at most higher compared to the summers. Can you please share your opinion? 
 

[LenT]

8 hours ago, ekirilov said:

I saw that the front tyres were put backwards ... they were put with the tread going the oposite direction as of the tyre manufacturer's recommendations. 

How can that ever be considered a clever thing to do?  What makes a tyre fitter think they know more about tread design than the people who designed the tread?

Why do they think manufacturers go to all the trouble of moulding arrows and words such as ‘Outside’ on to the sidewalls?  Do they think it’s just for decoration!?

An incorrectly fitted directional tyre will have reduced wet road efficiency, increasing the risk of aquaplaning; reduced cornering ability; increased wear rate and will generate more road noise.  Now whether all that will be dramatically apparent will obviously depend on such variables as road surface, weather conditions, driving style, speed, age of the tyre and so on.

So it may well be the case that a driver never becomes aware of the negatives associated with incorrect tyre fitting.  But if such a vehicle was involved in a serious accident that involved investigation by the Police Accident Investigation Unit in the UK, for example, and they discovered this error, it would undoubtedly be regarded as a contributing factor in attributing liability.

Perhaps this animation by Continental Tyres may help explain the principle of tyre fitting to your supplier?

 

[LenT]

4 hours ago, LenT said:

Why do they think manufacturers go to all the trouble of moulding arrows and words such as ‘Outside’ on to the sidewalls?  Do they think it’s just for decoration!?

I’ve just revisited Gov.UK to brush up on the current Guidance for MOT Testers - as you do.  It does state that tyres must be fitted in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions.

Clearly, fitting them the wrong way round is thus a no no!  Surprisingly, perhaps, this is NOT a Fail but is classified as a Major fault advisory.  

In effect, it can be ignored by the owner!  Quite how that makes sense is beyond my pay grade. 😊

[Mr_Groundhog]

On 12/2/2023 at 1:40 PM, ekirilov said:

I saw that the front tyres were put backwards ... they were put with the tread going the oposite direction as of the tyre manufacturer's recommendations.

You should take those people to court.

[Boeryeoes]

On 11/20/2023 at 10:29 AM, ekirilov said:

Hi guys,

Recently I've bought a new set of 4 Michelin Alpin 6 winter tyres, in order to have new rubber for the winter season. After checking online, these were the most convenient in my opinion, and Michelin as brand seems reliable and no brainer in this case.

However, since the tyre chainge, my car started drifting towards right for speeds over 40-50 kp/h. I've double checked with the tyre shop that made the replacement and sold me the tyres. They made an allighnment too, but the issue is still there. 
 

Today I went to the local Lexus dealer and they scheduled an appointment after 2 weeks, due to capacity constraints. However, the guy over there suggested, that it is entyrely due to the tyres. He mentioned that they had similar issues previously with Michelin tyres, where the cars were heading over to specific direction. He mentioned, that due to the V-shaped tread of the tyres, it is possible for the car to head slightly to the left/right. He mentioned, that ideally, the tyres need to have inner and outer side, instead of being the same troughout. 
 

My question is, have you ever seen such issues with M Alpin tyres with your IS300h, 17" tyres? And what is the best option, to return them for something else Michelin wise, or different car brand althogether? Is it bad for the car if I continue driving with them this way too? 

I had my CC2's replaced due to same drifting to the right. Now on summer tires again. Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric 6 and car behavior is back to good again!

https://www.lexusownersclub.co.uk/forum/topic/125356-calibration-after-replacing-tyres/?do=findComment&comment=1319347