Issue with winter tyres *Michelin Alpin6*

[ekirilov]

Hi guys,

Recently I've bought a new set of 4 Michelin Alpin 6 winter tyres, in order to have new rubber for the winter season. After checking online, these were the most convenient in my opinion, and Michelin as brand seems reliable and no brainer in this case.

However, since the tyre chainge, my car started drifting towards right for speeds over 40-50 kp/h. I've double checked with the tyre shop that made the replacement and sold me the tyres. They made an allighnment too, but the issue is still there. 
 

Today I went to the local Lexus dealer and they scheduled an appointment after 2 weeks, due to capacity constraints. However, the guy over there suggested, that it is entyrely due to the tyres. He mentioned that they had similar issues previously with Michelin tyres, where the cars were heading over to specific direction. He mentioned, that due to the V-shaped tread of the tyres, it is possible for the car to head slightly to the left/right. He mentioned, that ideally, the tyres need to have inner and outer side, instead of being the same troughout. 
 

My question is, have you ever seen such issues with M Alpin tyres with your IS300h, 17" tyres? And what is the best option, to return them for something else Michelin wise, or different car brand althogether? Is it bad for the car if I continue driving with them this way too? 

[Boeryeoes]

I have THE EXACT same issue with my current 17" Michelin Crossclimate 2 tires. Had alignment done twice to no avail. The last time was with the Lexus dealer.   

Reading your experience gives me hope that it's indeed caused by the tire. I will have them replaced but will wait until after winter.   Currently favoring the Goodyear F1 Eagle.  

[Seekerr]

I totally get your concern about the drifting issue with your Michelin Alpin 6 winter tires. It's frustrating when you invest in new tires, expecting an improvement, and then experience an unexpected problem. I haven't personally used that specific tire model on my IS300h, but it's interesting to hear about your situation.

It's good that you've taken the initiative to check with the tire shop and even consulted the Lexus dealer. It's a bit alarming that they suggested the drifting might be related to the tire tread, specifically the V-shaped pattern. I can see how having a directional design could potentially lead to such issues.

[Mr_Groundhog]

Aaaah.....so this may be the reason why my car has a very slight tendency to veer to the left on a straight road. Very very slightly, and I went for Hunter alignment to verify it was all OK (and it was).... AND mine are Michelin too (Primacy 4 VOL)

I'm glad you decided to ask, since it seems it's a few of us with the same issue.... and to be fair, it makes sense because the threading on the tyres isn't symmetrical so right or left makes a difference on how the wheels roll 🤔
But how / why would the Michelin engineers not think / detect this?

[NemesisUK]

This is an interesting read and might explain the drift? The colour bands on new tyres should be noted by the fitters but I doubt they ever are

https://www.wheels-inmotion.co.uk/forum/index.php?/topic/165-new-tyres-and-their-markings/

[ekirilov]

Thanks guys! 
@NemesisUK, I saw this post the other day. My tyres came with no such stripes unfortunately. 
I found a way to swap the tyres with another guy and with his payment, I may be able to buy another winters. What do you recommend? Should it be asymetrical, or has anyone in the forum any experience with winter tyres from other brands?

[LenT]

16 hours ago, ekirilov said:

He mentioned, that due to the V-shaped tread of the tyres, it is possible for the car to head slightly to the left/right. He mentioned, that ideally, the tyres need to have inner and outer side, instead of being the same troughout. 

I don’t understand his comment.  The V-shaped tread pattern of the Michelins makes them directional tyres, not asymmetrical.

The Michelins will have an arrow on the outer wall indicating the forward direction of rotation.  The block pattern is symmetrical.and therefore neutral in its effect across the tread , so will not of itself cause drifting.  If a tyre shows uneven wear across the tread pattern - perhaps due to tracking error - then that could cause drifting.

An asymmetrical tyre has different block sizes across the width of the tread to optimise different tread characteristics in the one tyre.  For example, the outer blocks will be larger and will provide better grip when cornering.  The smaller inner blocks are designed to provide more effective performance in the wet.

This means the tyre has a definite outer and inner wall, which will be so marked on the outer wall.  I suppose it’s possible that mounting asymmetrical tyres incorrectly on the front wheels might cause drifting in some circumstances.

But first one has to eliminate all the other possible factors - such as incorrect tyre pressures, tracking errors and wheel alignment.  Or perhaps simply a significant degree of road camber?

[Mr_Groundhog]

Silly enough, I had not thought of this as the reason for that very slight drift but I would be shocked if the tyre engineers had not thought of this, no? What do you guys think?

Because looking at my two front tyres (see pic: left one is driver side and right one is passenger), the thread isn't the same (it is but upside down).
HOWEVER when you look at the tyre info on the side there isn't an arrow indicating rolling direction (it just says "outside"), which means maybe they should be mounted differently on one side?
Now I wonder if it also says "outside" on the other side!?

Edit: I have written to Michelin UK but I don't expect a personal reply from a big corp, they'll probably send some marketing copy-paste. Will update.

[Sundance]

I'm with Len on this, in my view to suggest that any tyre has an inbuilt pull to left or right is absolute cobblers.

My directionals run straight as a die so I would be seeking further advice & delete where inapplicable ... wheel balancing, wheel alignment/tracking, uneven tread wear, defective rubber, road camber, sticky caliper(s), incorrect tyre pressures, tyres on wrong way round (even asymmetrical tyres have a defined 'outside' and 'inside' for correct fitting). suspension arms ... and maybe there are even more issues that I can't think of, but quality new tyres should NOT cause the car to veer!

If you still have a problem then forget the dealer/retailer and go straight to the manufacturer and complain!  If for no other reason ... it's dangerous!!

[LenT]

2 hours ago, Mr_Groundhog said:

HOWEVER when you look at the tyre info on the side there isn't an arrow indicating rolling direction (it just says "outside"), which means maybe they should be mounted differently on one side?

I would suggest that it means you should be seeing the word “Outside” on the outside of both tyres!  They appear to be asymmetric so it would seem that you’ve got one ‘Outside’  on the inside.

The tyre has been incorrectly mounted on the wheel.

Not the sort of mistake a professional tyre fitter should make!

PS:  Just found this image of a Michelin Primacy 4.  The word Outside is clearly apparent on the sidewall.

https://www.tyrereviews.com/Tyre/Michelin/Primacy-4.htm/view_media/Michelin-Primacy-4.png

[LenT]

1 hour ago, Sundance said:

I'm with Len on this, in my view to suggest that any tyre has an inbuilt pull to left or right is absolute cobblers

Couldn’t have put it better myself!  👍

 

[ekirilov]

Hi guys, 

thank you for the discussion so far. After 1 working day of reading all kinds of sources on wheel allignment, tyre types, suspencion setup, etc., I have some updates. 
Basically I was wondering in the beginning, if my IS300h can even have tyres that are anything but asymetrical, and that the model is not suitable for Michelin, Continental ... etc. 
Basically, I am almost 100% sure that the tyres are fine, pressure is fine and alignment is done. However, I will go to another tyre shop and request another balancing, since I suspect it might not have been done correctly. 
If this is not the case, I will check on my appointment with my local dealer on 5-th December and we will see. 
I've heard from the guy who sold me the car, who is selling 2nd hand Lexus cars mainly, and he confirmed about multiple ISs with Michelin tyres, without any issues. 
I will continue with my hustle and in the meantime will keep you posted! 

[Mr_Groundhog]

3 hours ago, LenT said:

I would suggest that it means you should be seeing the word “Outside” on the outside of both tyres!  They appear to be asymmetric so it would seem that you’ve got one ‘Outside’  on the inside.

The tyre has been incorrectly mounted on the wheel.

Not the sort of mistake a professional tyre fitter should make!

PS:  Just found this image of a Michelin Primacy 4.  The word Outside is clearly apparent on the sidewall.

https://www.tyrereviews.com/Tyre/Michelin/Primacy-4.htm/view_media/Michelin-Primacy-4.png

I do see the word outside on both, but this seems to suggest, as you say, that the word outside is present on both sides of the tyre. I'm gonna go to the garage tomorrow and tell them. Man why is it so hard to find competent professionals who care.

[LenT]

11 minutes ago, Mr_Groundhog said:

but this seems to suggest, as you say, that the word outside is present on both sides of the tyre

No, only one side of the tyre has the word Outside moulded on it - and that’s the side that should be outside!

So if you can see it on the outside of both front wheels, then the tyres are correctly fitted.  In which case, I misinterpreted your photos.  🙁

[DavidCM]

Outside means outside,simple .

[RONNIE W HODGEKINSON]

10 hours ago, Sundance said:

I'm with Len on this, in my view to suggest that any tyre has an inbuilt pull to left or right is absolute cobblers.

My directionals run straight as a die so I would be seeking further advice & delete where inapplicable ... wheel balancing, wheel alignment/tracking, uneven tread wear, defective rubber, road camber, sticky caliper(s), incorrect tyre pressures, tyres on wrong way round (even asymmetrical tyres have a defined 'outside' and 'inside' for correct fitting). suspension arms ... and maybe there are even more issues that I can't think of, but quality new tyres should NOT cause the car to veer!

If you still have a problem then forget the dealer/retailer and go straight to the manufacturer and complain!  If for no other reason ... it's dangerous!!

Would agree with you Rowley  it should make no difference....But this is a strange one..There are so many Permutations as to what could be causing this..!!!!! i Agree contact the customer service dept at Mitchelin Head Office and see what there take on this is..!!!!!

[Mr_Groundhog]

21 hours ago, DavidCM said:

Outside means outside,simple .

No s**t Sherlock. Thanks for enlightening me with your wisdom.

23 hours ago, LenT said:

No, only one side of the tyre has the word Outside moulded on it - and that’s the side that should be outside!

So if you can see it on the outside of both front wheels, then the tyres are correctly fitted.  In which case, I misinterpreted your photos.  🙁

Maybe you did, not sure. My point was simple: if the thread is weaved optimally to evacuate water in a certain way (outwards as the tyre rolls on wet tarmac for example), then if the opposite tyre has that thread pattern "upside down" so to speak, the water would flow in the "wrong" way (inwards).
...What I found even more confusing is that yes, the word "outside" was visible on all of them, despite the above not making sense to me. In my head it felt like a contradiction: how can they both be mounted right when they don't mirror each other?

I did check today and they do have "inside" on the inside, so at least my suspicion of wrongdoing was unfounded 🙂

About the Michelin enquiry: they replied nicely actually:
 Primact 4 tyres are 'symmetrical' tyres so each tyre may be mounted in any position on the vehicle.
...if the car has 'asymmetrical' or 'directional' tyres fitted, the mounting position is important. In these cases the tyres will have an arrow indicating direction of travel, and/or 'Inside/outside' embosed on the tyre sidewall to indicate mounting position. For further information regarding correct tyre mounting, please see the following link: https://www.michelin.co.uk/auto/advice/tyre-care/tyre-rotation 

[LenT]

1 hour ago, Mr_Groundhog said:

My point was simple: if the thread is weaved optimally to evacuate water in a certain way (outwards as the tyre rolls on wet tarmac for example), then if the opposite tyre has that thread pattern "upside down" so to speak, the water would flow in the "wrong" way (inwards).

Essentially, yes…I think you’re right!

But I think now that that’s an illusion caused by the staggered effect of the sipes.  If Michelin states they are symmetrical that’s good enough for me.

But in that case, why could I find an image of the Michelin Primary 4 with ‘Outside’ moulded on the tyre wall?  If they’re symmetrical then they can be fitted either way on the wheel - unless there’s something within the tyre’s construction that they’re not revealing.

1 hour ago, Mr_Groundhog said:

What I found even more confusing is that yes, the word "outside" was visible on all of them

What I now find confusing is that it is there at all!  And even more so now that you’ve found the word ‘Inside’ on the other tyre wall!  

Why?  If it’s symmetrical then it doesn’t matter which way it’s mounted on the wheel.  And surely you’d only put ‘Inside’ on the inner wall - as well as ‘Outside’ on the outer wall - if it was really, really critical to get right. 

Unfortunately these are questions Michelin doesn’t actually address in their response.  But the bottom line seems to be that as there appears to be no excessive wear across the tread on the tyres you’ve photographed, then they are unlikely to be the cause of any drifting.  

Our cars have Michelin CrossClimate and Goodyear Eagle F1 - respectively Directional and Asymmetric.  You know where you are with them!  😊

[Sundance]

Let's cut to the chase here chaps.  There's absolutely no reason for a symmetrical tyre to have either 'outside' or 'inside' stamped upon it, these two words are reserved for asymmetrical and (just in case one doesn't look at the tread) directional tyres.

As for your query Len, I put it to you that Michelin Primary 4 are asymmetrical tyres and quite why or how Michelin can suggest otherwise is beyond me.

https://alltyretests.com/michelin-primacy-4/

[LenT]

2 hours ago, Sundance said:

As for your query Len, I put it to you that Michelin Primary 4 are asymmetrical tyres and quite why or how Michelin can suggest otherwise is beyond me.

As that was my initial response too, I’m equally puzzled.  Although the tread pattern of the tyres photographed is not as obviously asymmetrical as, for example, the Goodyear F1 Eagles, the sipe pattern could be ambiguous.  But the impression is re-enforced by moulding ‘Outside’ - and apparently ‘Inside’ - on the tyre walls!

Why do it if the tyre can be fitted either way round?

But this page on the Michelin site definitely identifies a Primacy 4 as a symmetrical tread!  And, as the inventors of the radial tyre, they do know a bit about them after all!

https://www.michelin.co.uk/auto/advice/tyre-care/tyre-rotation?utm_source=LexusOwnersClubUK&utm_medium=ForumLinks

The alternative possibilities are that either All Tyre Tests has got it wrong - or it’s another example of French idiosyncrasies!  Either way, I think you summed the matter up quite neatly earlier on.  😊

[Mr_Groundhog]

21 hours ago, LenT said:

As that was my initial response too, I’m equally puzzled.  Although the tread pattern of the tyres photographed is not as obviously asymmetrical as, for example, the Goodyear F1 Eagles, the sipe pattern could be ambiguous.  But the impression is re-enforced by moulding ‘Outside’ - and apparently ‘Inside’ - on the tyre walls!

Why do it if the tyre can be fitted either way round?

But this page on the Michelin site definitely identifies a Primacy 4 as a symmetrical tread!  And, as the inventors of the radial tyre, they do know a bit about them after all!

https://www.michelin.co.uk/auto/advice/tyre-care/tyre-rotation?utm_source=LexusOwnersClubUK&utm_medium=ForumLinks

The alternative possibilities are that either All Tyre Tests has got it wrong - or it’s another example of French idiosyncrasies!  Either way, I think you summed the matter up quite neatly earlier on.  😊

Well I have replied to the guy who answered with just that. It makes zero sense to label inside and outside if the tyre is really symmetrical. And if it isn't, the thread should not look this way (I'm not a Michelin engineer though)

[LenT]

14 minutes ago, Mr_Groundhog said:

Well I have replied to the guy who answered with just that. It makes zero sense to label inside and outside if the tyre is really symmetrical. And if it isn't, the thread should not look this way (I'm not a Michelin engineer though)

And I have also just emailed Michelin Support to see if they can clarify the contradictions we’ve just revealed.  And they may also have to explain to other tyre professionals why the Primary 4 is NOT asymmetrical!

This could run and run!  😆

[DBIZO]

After reading this thread, I really am looking forward to my swap to a set of Bridgestone Turanza All Season 6...what could go wrong, right.

[Mr_Groundhog]

Said I would keep you guys posted and I am: the Michelin UK contact person replied correcting himself:

Quote

 

Yes, on inspection, your Primacy 4 VOL tyres are asymmetrical. In this case the mounting position is important and should follow the orientation as indicated by the 'Inside/outside' embossed on the tyre side-wall.

Asymmetric profile tyres can only be used in one direction of travel. This means that they can only be fitted in one position. This is indicated on the outer side-wall of the tyre by an arrow and one side-wall of this type of tyre is marked "Outside”. Please check the orientation of the tyres shown in the photographs. It is possible that they should be on the same side of the vehicle. Again, please check with a technician at a tyre dealership or somebody qualified to check tyres. I apologise if my previous email was misleading.

 

So now the same tyres turn out to be asymmetrical. Fine. I replied asking: if they all show "outside" why does the thread not mirror-match? And I included an illustration to make sure I get the point across, because this starts to look like a manufacturing error in my paranoid mind. 

 

[Sundance]

That's good, just as we thought earlier then. So let's not over-complicate this and accept the fact that Primacy 4 are indeed asymmetrical. What's left that's not to like?