An interesting thread on Pistonheads

[Mincey]

It's not looking good for the Scheissewagens: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=23&t=2052539&i=0

[First_Lexus]

1 hour ago, Mincey said:

It's not looking good for the Scheissewagens: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=23&t=2052539&i=0

Still mulling a sensible downsize from my RX next year, I’ve now decided on a shortlist of a Toyota Corolla Excel, Mazda 3 Takumi and…erm…I included the BMW 1-Series due the reviews, and never having owned a BMW.

Prices of all three when specified to the same level are within a few pounds of one another, with the Mazda cheapest. What I can’t understand are the reviews noting how wonderful the BMW cabin is, both in terms of design and quality. What Car? even notes that while the Corolla interior is very good, it can’t match the quality of the BMW…

…I must be looking at different things. Both the Mazda and Toyota appear far better made to me. I specifically looked at cars on the forecourt that were 1-2 years old, and the BMW doesn’t wear miles well whereas the Japanese (Toyota built on British soil) pair are just superior.

 

[Bluemarlin]

Motoring reviewers have long had a love affair with BMWs, and neither cosmetics nor comparitive reliability seem to dent that.

[Linas.P]

Sadly we just need to admit that for new car on the road today with the perspective of 3 years ownership BMW just offers good deal. Are they as long term reliable as Lexus... obviously NOT! But majority of people do no own the cars long term, 3 years is norm, 5 years and 60k miles is absolute top for (I am guessing here) 80%? maybe more?

So yes - Lexus objectively makes better cars, but only if you keep them for 10 years/100k miles... almost nobody keeps the cars for as long and BMW offers more competitive financing, more competitive pricing and better performance for first 3-5 years of the ownership.

Now sure, one can buy 5 years old 60k miles Lexus with complete confidence, that is where I aim to buy my cars (3-5 years old, below 60k miles) and that is why I stay for a long time with Lexus, but the truth again is that only new car buyers matters. What used car owners care about doesn't matter for manufacturer, they get no direct benefit from second hand market.

In conclusion - the culture has to change, the desire to own new car every 3 years has to end, only then Lexus can compete like for like with BMW which offer better short term car. Basically a fast fashion of cars vs. good quality and classic clothing... 

[Bluemarlin]

2 hours ago, Linas.P said:

In conclusion - the culture has to change, the desire to own new car every 3 years has to end, only then Lexus can compete like for like with BMW which offer better short term car. Basically a fast fashion of cars vs. good quality and classic clothing... 

Ot they can do what the likes of BMW/Mercedes/Audi do, which is to offer lower spec cars within the range. The German manufacturers have long since learned that people willl buy a lower spec car with a luxury badge on it, over a better equipped one from the likes of Ford, Mazda, Toyota etc.

[Linas.P]

47 minutes ago, Bluemarlin said:

Ot they can do what the likes of BMW/Mercedes/Audi do, which is to offer lower spec cars within the range. The German manufacturers have long since learned that people willl buy a lower spec car with a luxury badge on it, over a better equipped one from the likes of Ford, Mazda, Toyota etc.

They can and to be fair I believe they do that as well, the so called "luxury" trim on IS/RC/CT/NX was really basic and on IS there were even lower trims with everything possible stripped out for pure poverty experience. But I think Lexus kind of missed the trick - poverty spec. should look "sexy" from outside, that is why you have E220d AMG-Line or BMW 420d M-Sport, so it looks like fast car but it is slow. So Lexus need RC300h F-Sport looking car, but with appointments inside from Luxury and sell it for £4000 less. Well I guess knowing my opinion of 300h/200t - one could argue they already do this, but BMW just manages to do it better, whereas Lexus has this rigid trim constrains - so to get F-Sport you must pay extra for all other things as well. Whereas AMG-pack and M-Sport badge is £1200 stand alone pack and you can have you 140hp 2L diesel looking like M4... from 200m away... 

I think what Lexus refused to compromise on was quality (and I praise them for that), so they are not in complete race to the bottom as other 2 brands. That said when comparing the models towards the upper end of the range I believe likes of BMW still offers better product which will last "long enough" and for first 3 years offers better value/performance. That said Audi and MB recently were horrible with quality, to the point where I would argue it doesn't even last 5 years 60k... and that is the problem regardless of how one looks at it. BMW is slightly different thought - they are firmly in top 10 (6-8 places in last few years) for quality and generally last as long as most owners want. Sure buying 10 years 100k miles BMW is still only recommended for brave or stupid, but there is clearly distinction between BMW and other two. 

I think recently Lexus kind of stepped up and lifted the the bottom cars since introduction of LSS+ and 10 year warranty, but that is not enough to sway the most... as again - what is the benefit of 10 years warranty if one replaces the car after 2 or 3 years? 

[Bluemarlin]

Fair comments Linas. I think Lexus were also somewhat hindered by being a spin off luxury brand, and having Toyota as the mainstream range. I imagine that makes it a harder decision to offer entry level models to the luxury range, for a variety of reasons.

You're also right about people changing their cars frequently, and so longevity has less value to many buyers. Even so, it does seem like longer warranties,  even though of limited benefit to new car buyers, have  some influence on buying decisions. I think some buyers though (Range Rover ones for example), would settlle for an effective shorter term warranty.

[Linas.P]

2 minutes ago, Bluemarlin said:

Even so, it does seem like longer warranties,  even though of limited benefit to new car buyers, have  some influence on buying decisions.

It does and there is some genuine benefit - longer warranty means more second hand demand which should result in higher residual price and lower monthly instalments, sadly I think Lexus simply lacks volume to offer best finance deals. As well there is slight psychological benefit - even if one is not planning to have car for 10 years, they still feel like they getting better deal of getting that warranty just in case. But in case of Lexus does not seem like this sentiment really translates into sales... I heard it is much more positive on commercial vehicles, like taxis, Toyota pick-up trucks and work SUVs, but let's face it - Toyota was always leader there, so nothing new. Previous Prius/Avensis has sold on known good reliability record, now it is just backed-up by official warranty.

Audi has same issue (being luxury brand of VW), they simply overcome this by ignoring it and people still buys their cars... honestly Audis are horrible I have never considered them equal to MB/BMW or for that matter Lexus... basically all the criticisms I had about Lexus ES existed in Audi world for decades and applies to almost every single model, I guess Audi somewhat remedied that by offering Quattro for most of their cars and that differentiates them from wrong wheel drive WV counterparts. 

[Bluemarlin]

I'm sure volume does play part, at least in the UK, whereas the RX  was the top selling luxury car in the US.

Still, I guess we have plenty of choices,  whatever our preferences or budget.