Little luxury cars

[Lmafudd]

2 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Ignorance is rife here...

Being objective when comparing the difference in build quality is not "denigrating"... If you can't handle the reality then maybe that is your problem? 

Likewise you clearly failed to understand what OP said - he is comparing it with particular model GS, so it does not matter what you think about UX in isolation or in current market compared to it's close competitors. I even agree that it may be better quality than competition, but it doesn't mean it is anywhere near as good quality than old GS.

Next you introduce irrelevant personal metrics - MPG, subjective looks etc. Nobody here said UX does not return good MPG, but how is that quality? As well why do you assume people have not tried newer Lexus cars before comparing?! The last Lexus I owned was 2017 RC and without a doubt it was much worse quality inside than my old 2008 IS, or my current 2006 GS. The newest Lexus car I drove was 2020 LC500... Likewise I have driven 2020 CT and 2020 UX back to back, one for 4 days another one for 11 days, both are cheap and plasticky inside. I I have driven countless other CTs and ISes over the years. 

So yes - UX is cheap and plasticky compared to real Lexus cars, barely different from Toyota CH-R it is built on (and I have driven both CH-R and UX multiple times).

The better question would be - how many Lexus cars you have driven in the past, especially older ones back in the days when Lexus still cared about quality, to be able to say that UX is even close to quality of them?

So your logic is just flawed here - you clearly prioritise "new" over "quality", can't blame you as most Brits do (better new shaitbox, than even few years old premium car), but the problem here is that you can't see past your own bias. 

Blimey! Cage rattled? Feeling Victimised? Raw nerve requiring a coating of Vaseline? Choose one that works for you.

I deliberately kept my points 'general' and did not mention anyone in particular. I also stated "in my opinion" and "I find" as my comments are just that, mine, and they do not invalidate your own theories and ideas even though you phrase them in a far more verbose manner than I. That's the nature of a 'Forum' I believe.

I would prefer if you did not personalise issues and attack individuals please. By doing so we only bring these discussions down to gutter level and put-off people who would like to contribute but fear to do so in-case they receive a broadside! I hate to rouse the anger of admins etc. and we should play nicely.

As a parting comment I have driven many 'quality' cars but came into the Lexus family quite late in my driving life. I recently purchased a brand new C-HR, owned it for 5 months, lost 5k to change it for the UX that is now on the driveway and I can say with certainty that the Lexus is streets ahead of the C-HR even though that had the now current UX infotainment system, self parking, high MPG and more bells and whistles than I could ever need. Interior was good but just did not come up to the Lexus standard. You may have another opinion on that matter of course and good luck to you.

[Linas.P]

8 minutes ago, Lmafudd said:

I deliberately kept my points 'general' and did not mention anyone in particular. I also stated "in my opinion" and "I find" as my comments are just that, mine, and they do not invalidate your own theories and ideas even though you phrase them in a far more verbose manner than I. 

I would prefer if you did not personalise issues and attack individuals please. 

So did I... everything was in general and in my option, you didn't mention anyone in particular, but it does not require genius to figure out who you referring to. Not even sure where you find the attack "personalised" apart of part where you said people "have not tried modern cars" and I challenged your view as basically according to you "they don't know what they are talking about". And I am not offended, I am just pointing out faults of your argument and it is you who took offence of "denigrating" quality comparisons. As well you are failing to understand question being asked i.e. fuel economy is not substitute for quality, UX being better than CH-R likewise is kind of irrelevant if they both are way worse quality than GS.

So your comment was just filled of ignorance and lack of understanding of what is even being asked...

[Lmafudd]

4 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

So did I... everything was in general and in my option, you didn't mention anyone in particular, but it does not require genius to figure out who you referring to. Not even sure where you find the attack "personalised" apart of part where you said people "have not tried modern cars" and I challenged your view as basically according to you "they don't know what they are talking about". And I am not offended, I am just pointing out faults of your argument and it is you who took offence of "denigrating" quality comparisons. As well you are failing to understand question being asked i.e. fuel economy is not substitute for quality, UX being better than CH-R likewise is kind of irrelevant if they both are way worse quality than GS.

So your comment was just filled of ignorance and lack of understanding of what is even being asked...

You clearly fail to accept that anyone can have an 'OPINION' that is different to your own and I will be wasting my time and others if I attempt to respond to your scurrilous comments. Maybe an admin can tell me how you managed to get to 8k comments and still be able to post - if the flavour of your recent remarks is anything to go by.

[HPS13]

2 hours ago, Linas.P said:

UX is cheap and plasticky compared to real Lexus cars

In my opinion, this is definitely not true and is a foolish comment. Are you suggesting the UX is not a 'real' Lexus car? Perhaps you should contact Lexus UK and share your observations with them. 

[Mr Vlad]

Hi Alan. You are in almost an impossible position. You drive what is arguably one of the most very best cars built Ever. 

You want to downsize but you're gonna find it ruddy impossible because you've been 'spoilt'.

You say you've sat in a Takumi spec UX and didn't like it! Shock horror. My strong suggestion to you sunshine. KEEP the GS because you'll regret for the rest of your life if you go 'smaller '

However if you sell the GS and keep off owning a car for a month or three Then start to look for a smaller car then you really would have to consider the UX.

I've had a couple as courtesy cars for a day at a time and one on loan for 4 days. They are absolutely cracking cars. 

But you really must take a break of car ownership or else you'll be rolloxed  and with an almighty head ruck over finding a suitable replacement car.

Sorry for being blunt but black is black and white is white with me.

[Boomer54]

"So your comment was just filled of ignorance and lack of understanding of what is even being asked..."

Hmm....  !

How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie | Goodreads

Specifically.

"Learn the six ways to make people like you, the twelve ways to win people to your way of thinking, and the nine ways to change people without arousing resentment."

 

[Mossypossy]

Back on topic. Small and "luxury" ish.

 

[Lmafudd]

24 minutes ago, Mr Vlad said:

Hi Alan. You are in almost an impossible position. You drive what is arguably one of the most very best cars built Ever. 

You want to downsize but you're gonna find it ruddy impossible because you've been 'spoilt'.

You say you've sat in a Takumi spec UX and didn't like it! Shock horror. My strong suggestion to you sunshine. KEEP the GS because you'll regret for the rest of your life if you go 'smaller '

However if you sell the GS and keep off owning a car for a month or three Then start to look for a smaller car then you really would have to consider the UX.

I've had a couple as courtesy cars for a day at a time and one on loan for 4 days. They are absolutely cracking cars. 

But you really must take a break of car ownership or else you'll be rolloxed  and with an almighty head ruck over finding a suitable replacement car.

Sorry for being blunt but black is black and white is white with me.

I understand the principle that if one absolutely loves something than anything is a 'step-down' but having moved from the NX to the UX, albeit via a misguided period in a C-HR (not that there's  anything's wrong with the Toyota, just didn't suit me), but I genuinely do not feel that the UX is a 'small car'. It feels good to drive and when parked next to most other cars they look comparable. This may be clever design but unless you drive with four people in the car regularly then the UX is roomy enough. I admit that the luggage space could be better designed to give more usable volume but load carrying isn't a regular thing for me these days. Even the flimsy luggage cover does it's job very well. Mine is a Premium Sport Edition and I think it looks rather swish inside but my granddaughter does slide around a bit on the leather/pleather/vinyl stuff!

[Linas.P]

15 minutes ago, HPS13 said:

In my opinion, this is definitely not true and is a foolish comment. Are you suggesting the UX is not a 'real' Lexus car? Perhaps you should contact Lexus UK and share your observations with them. 

It is Toyota CH-R with Lexus badge mate... so no it is not "real" Lexus.

18 minutes ago, Lmafudd said:

You clearly fail to accept that anyone can have an 'OPINION' that is different to your own and I will be wasting my time and others if I attempt to respond to your scurrilous comments. Maybe an admin can tell me how you managed to get to 8k comments and still be able to post - if the flavour of your recent remarks is anything to go by.

Ohhh and it is my "cage that was rattled"?! Yet is you who basically suggest I should not be allowed to post, because it hurt your feelings... who is cry baby here? You certainly can have your opinion, but it doesn't pass the basic "smell" test. The question is on "quality" and you only argument - "UX is better than in undefined way CH-R and more economical than NX". How does it even relevant? So good start would be to at least try to answer the question.

11 minutes ago, Boomer54 said:

"So your comment was just filled of ignorance and lack of understanding of what is even being asked..."

Hmm....  !

How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie | Goodreads

Specifically.

"Learn the six ways to make people like you, the twelve ways to win people to your way of thinking, and the nine ways to change people without arousing resentment."

That is the main mistake you made here, is that you assuming I am looking for friends. I don't.

There is certainly group of people here who are just basically fans of their cars, like Lexus and want to be in "positive only" fan club, basically just licking each other off with mutual compliments. I am not in that group and I honestly want to distance myself from it - if Lexus does something great, then I will be hear to state I and defend it, but if Lexus does something stupid then I will be the first one to say "this is stupid"... and I do not care if that hurts some other club member who has irrational love for their car. If UX is plasticky then it is plasticky, if IS300h is slow then it is slow. If you want honest answer - I am here for it, but I am not here to be anyone's friend.

[Lmafudd]

6 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

It is Toyota CH-R with Lexus badge mate... so no it is not "real" Lexus.

Ohhh and it is my "cage that was rattled"?! Yet is you who basically suggest I should not be allowed to post, because it hurt your feelings... who is cry baby here? You certainly can have your opinion, but it doesn't pass the basic "smell" test. The question is on "quality" and you only argument - "UX is better than in undefined way CH-R and more economical than NX". How does it even relevant? So good start would be to at least try to answer the question.

That is the main mistake you made here, is that you assuming I am looking for friends. I don't.

There is certainly group of people here who are just basically fans of their cars, like Lexus and want to be in "positive only" fan club, basically just licking each other off with mutual compliments. I am not in that group and I honestly want to distance myself from it - if Lexus does something great, then I will be hear to state I and defend it, but if Lexus does something stupid then I will be the first one to say "this is stupid"... and I do not care if that hurts some other club member who has irrational love for their car. If UX is plasticky then it is plasticky, if IS300h is slow then it is slow. If you want honest answer - I am here for it, but I am not here to be anyone's friend.

Get your facts right Linas old chap. I didn't make the last comment. 

What do you currently drive? Your profile says 'none'!

[Linas.P]

3 minutes ago, Lmafudd said:

Get your facts right Linas old chap. I didn't make the last comment. 

What do you currently drive? Your profile says 'none'!

Just shows you haven't even bothered to read my comments, if you have such question. 

[NemesisUK]

6 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

It is Toyota CH-R with Lexus badge mate... so no it is not "real" Lexus.

34 minutes ago, Lmafudd said:

It's the age old argument, done to death on many websites/forums. Yes Lexus cars share much from the Toyota line-up. What makes a Lexus a Lexus is the additional sound deadening, higher quality materials in the cabin and yes, the badge.

As Toyota and Lexus are essentially the same company one should naturally expect a degree of cross-over but one can certainly tell the two apart.

Lexus don't have to defend their price premium, they offer, one buys, or one doesn't. The choice is one's own.

[Lmafudd]

6 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Just shows you haven't even bothered to read my comments, if you have such question. 

I have occasionally lost the will to live when reading your tirades that's true but humour me and give me the quick answer please.

[HPS13]

14 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

It is Toyota CH-R with Lexus badge mate... so no it is not "real" Lexus.

How can I be your mate, we have never met? 

Does that mean that your 2006 GS is just a Toyota Crown with a Lexus badge? Don't all Lexus cars share at least some parts with Toyota? You seem to suggest that Toyota is inferior. 

We all get that you are a GS fanboy and that's absolutely fine but there is no need to try and disrespect other Lexus car owners. 

[Linas.P]

Just now, NemesisUK said:

It's the age old argument, done to death on many websites/forums. Yes Lexus cars share much from the Toyota line-up. What makes a Lexus a Lexus is the additional sound deadening, higher quality materials in the cabin and yes, the badge.

As Toyota and Lexus are essentially the same company one should naturally expect a degree of cross-over but one can certainly tell the two apart.

Lexus don't have to defend their price premium, they offer, one buys, or one doesn't. The choice is one's own.

Yes and that is what UX does not have. So I completely agree with your argument and I am not being snob about them being Toyota. Toyota Are great cars and what separates them from Lexus is what you said, so I agree with your argument, but I don't agree that UX meets the criteria to be called Lexus if what you saying is true. 

NX has it, UX does not have the level of higher quality materials, sound deadening... only the badge.

Now to be fair - UX has better quality materials than Toyota CH-R, BUT not the same level of materials than "real" Lexus e.g. RX, GS, LS etc. So in UX you don't get same quality just in smaller car, no you get smaller car with cheaper materials as well. Not quite Toyota, but not quite Lexus either. 

As well To be honest I would throw this in - and this surely will be controversial, but real Lexus should be RWD, or at least AWD. That is why Lexus for long time had those platforms separately, IS/GS/LS/RC/LC don't really have equivalents in Toyota line-up, RX (older one was Harrier, but new one is dedicated Lexus model) and NX (loosely based on RAV-4) are distantly based on Toyota, but they are substantially better. Like if we take Lexus IS or RC which I consider "true" Lexus, then both NX and RX are better quality.

 

[Lmafudd]

1 minute ago, Linas.P said:

Yes and that is what UX does not have. So I completely agree with your argument and I am not being snob about them being Toyota. Toyota Are great cars and what separates them from Lexus is what you said, so I agree with your argument, but I don't agree that UX meets the criteria to be called Lexus if what you saying is true. 

NX has it, UX does not have the level of higher quality materials, sound deadening... only the badge.

Now to be fair - UX has better quality materials than Toyota CH-R, BUT not the same level of materials than "real" Lexus e.g. RX, GS, LS etc. So in UX you don't get same quality just in smaller car, no you get smaller car with cheaper materials as well. Not quite Toyota, but not quite Lexus either. 

As well To be honest I would throw this in - and this surely will be controversial, but real Lexus should be RWD, or at least AWD. That is why Lexus for long time had those platforms separately, IS/GS/LS/RC/LC don't really have equivalents in Toyota line-up, RX (older one was Harrier, but new one is dedicated Lexus model) and NX (loosely based on RAV-4) are distantly based on Toyota, but they are substantially better. Like if we take Lexus IS or RC which I consider "true" Lexus, then both NX and RX are better quality.

 

Isn't the NX the same chassis as the new RAV4? That's what I was told by a Toyota dealer.

[Lmafudd]

I found this very amusing. 

They all do it! Why re-event the wheel?

[Linas.P]

1 minute ago, HPS13 said:

How can I be your mate, we have never met? 

Does that mean that your 2006 GS is just a Toyota Crown with a Lexus badge? Don't all Lexus cars share at least some parts with Toyota? You seem to suggest that Toyota is inferior. 

We all get that you are a GS fanboy and that's absolutely fine but there is no need to try and disrespect other Lexus car owners. 

No that actually makes Toyota Crown a rebadged Lexus GS i.e. Toyota Crown was substantially more premium than other Toyotas.

Point here is not what is better - Toyota or Lexus, but simply value you get. Take for example Toyota Celsior and Lexus LS is very different story from Lexus UX and Toyota C-HR, in one case you are getting Lexus LS quality in both Celsior and LS, but you get Celsior at discount, quality does not suffer (in fact both of them were identical, some Celsiors even had extra features), it is just badge that is different and you get premium quality for less. Win win. That is opposite when you get UX, because the quality is not substantially better than CH-R, yet you pay premium to get Lexus badge on it, so you pay more to have economy class car. That is just bad value. 

So I don't mind owning Toyota if I explicitly buy it for fair price, what I don't like is when economy car has premium badge on it and it is sold for premium price. 

I am not GS fanboy, in fact I don't particularly like the looks of mk3, kind of started growing on me recently to be fair, but I don't consider it pretty car. But quality wise it is very good. GS mk4 on other hand is just way superior car, but again - it is too big for me I would not be looking to upgrade to mk4 at any time. But that does not cloud my judgement in any way- it is still one of the best Lexus cars, quality wise, ever made. 

[Lmafudd]

2 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

No that actually makes Toyota Crown a rebadged Lexus GS i.e. Toyota Crown was substantially more premium than other Toyotas.

Point here is not what is better - Toyota or Lexus, but simply value you get. Take for example Toyota Celsior and Lexus LS is very different story from Lexus UX and Toyota C-HR, in one case you are getting Lexus LS quality in both Celsior and LS, but you get Celsior at discount, quality does not suffer (in fact both of them were identical, some Celsiors even had extra features), it is just badge that is different and you get premium quality for less. Win win. That is opposite when you get UX, because the quality is not substantially better than CH-R, yet you pay premium to get Lexus badge on it, so you pay more to have economy class car. That is just bad value. 

So I don't mind owning Toyota if I explicitly buy it for fair price, what I don't like is when economy car has premium badge on it and it is sold for premium price. 

I am not GS fanboy, in fact I don't particularly like the looks of mk3, kind of started growing on me recently to be fair, but I don't consider it pretty car. But quality wise it is very good. GS mk4 on other hand is just way superior car, but again - it is too big for me I would not be looking to upgrade to mk4 at any time. But that does not cloud my judgement in any way- it is still one of the best Lexus cars, quality wise, ever made. 

... In your opinion.

[HPS13]

 

9 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

but real Lexus should be RWD,

Attention all ES, UX, LS, NX, RX and potential LBX owners! 

[Linas.P]

3 minutes ago, Lmafudd said:

... In your opinion.

In my opinion... 

2 minutes ago, HPS13 said:

 

Attention all ES, UX, LS, NX, RX and potential LBX owners! 

You are late to the party ... I have already berated ES, LBX and UX as just badge engineered Toyotas... nobody should find this surprising.

But if you quote me then at least quote me in full - I said AWD counts. LS is primarily RWD as well with AWD option, RX as far as I know are all AWD. The NX only lowest trim was FWD... thought to be fair is not real AWD even in higher trims... it is "hybrid AWD" which means engine still runs front wheels and it is basically FWD, and rear have just get a small electric motors to help with traction and cornering. I am not fan of that, but the rest of the car is quite good. The only real AWD NX was 200t with 6 speed box. Obviously NX350 is real AWD as well, but in UK we don't get good cars.

[HPS13]

9 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

GS mk4 on other hand is just way superior car, but again - it is too big for me

GS Mark 3 dimensions - length 4826 mm width 1821 mm 

GS Mark 4 dimensions - length 4850 mm width 1840 mm

 

[Lmafudd]

7 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

In my opinion... 

You are late to the party ... I have already berated ES, LBX and UX as just badge engineered Toyotas... nobody should find this surprising.

But if you quote me then at least quote me in full - I said AWD counts. LS is primarily RWD as well with AWD option, RX as far as I know are all AWD. The NX only lowest trim was FWD... thought to be fair is not real AWD even in higher trims... it is "hybrid AWD" which means engine still runs front wheels and it is basically FWD, and rear have just get a small electric motors to help with traction and cornering. I am not fan of that, but the rest of the car is quite good. The only real AWD NX was 200t with 6 speed box. Obviously NX350 is real AWD as well, but in UK we don't get good cars.

... in your opinion.

[Lmafudd]

5 minutes ago, HPS13 said:

GS Mark 3 dimensions - length 4826 mm width 1821 mm 

GS Mark 4 dimensions - length 4850 mm width 1840 mm

 

One inch makes a huge difference Hugh! 

[Linas.P]

6 minutes ago, HPS13 said:

GS Mark 3 dimensions - length 4826 mm width 1821 mm 

GS Mark 4 dimensions - length 4850 mm width 1840 mm

Yes - mk3 is also "too big" (realistically I want coupe, so it is less about size and more about having 2 extra unnecessary doors), but it is amazingly good value. Unlike UX...