Fuel quality

[Baggers]

I tend to use supermarket petrol in my ES and, frankly, give it very little thought. But I have been reading about Shell v-Power which apparently cleans the injectors and gives improved performance and economy. What is the experience of members of the LOC in this area please? Is it worth paying the extra?

[rayaans]

Generally speaking supermarket fuel is fine if it's being run through the tank often. 

However, I prefer to go for standard unleaded from a good company such as BP / Esso / Shell etc. 

I've found supermarket fuel to be difficult in my ride on mower compared to standard fuel from the big names and goes "off" a lot quicker so I've stopped using it. 

[NemesisUK]

I only ever feed my cars with V-Power, no need to but on the miles I do it's not worth worrying about the additional £6 or £7 a tank full and it gives me peace of mind that the fuel system is being kept clean...

[Spock66]

Personally I use Supermarket E5 most of the time, I think most fuels will have some forms of additive.

Unless you test run an engine with a known fuel for many thousands of miles and then strip it down for inspection it's very difficult to predict what impact different fuels may have.

[RONNIE W HODGEKINSON]

3 hours ago, Baggers said:

I tend to use supermarket petrol in my ES and, frankly, give it very little thought. But I have been reading about Shell v-Power which apparently cleans the injectors and gives improved performance and economy. What is the experience of members of the LOC in this area please? Is it worth paying the extra?

YES.. Definately David.. V-power as you say cleans the the Injectors So I always Go for it In Fact Talking apple cider vinegar for ourselves adding it to our food ALSO cleans our Aortic /Pulmonary/Triscupid/Mitral Valves in our Heart Just like the V- Power Petrol we put in Our Cars.. Mmmm  Food for Thought..!!!

[KingHal]

There are always stories circulating about “dirty” and inferior fuel sold by supermarkets. Generally it’s “I was talking to a taxi driver recently …”

I can only relate my own experience. I’ve owned many cars and motorbikes and driven a few hundred thousand miles on regular supermarket fuel without an issue, with one exception. That was a 1,690cc Harley with high compression pistons and high lift cams. It needed premium grade. 
 

Lexus hybrids are very understressed and generally in a low state of tune. Imo premium fuel is throwing money away. I have a friend who loses sleep over his fuel “going off” if he leaves his motorbike for a couple of months without riding it. I rode my motorbike yesterday for the first time in 12 months for its MOT. It started immediately and ran perfectly. 

Supermarkets sell around half of all fuel now. If it was bad I reckon there would be emperical evidence rather than bar room stories.
 

Just my two penny’s worth. 

[Illogan]

44 minutes ago, KingHal said:

There are always stories circulating about “dirty” and inferior fuel sold by supermarkets. Generally it’s “I was talking to a taxi driver recently …”

I can only relate my own experience. I’ve owned many cars and motorbikes and driven a few hundred thousand miles on regular supermarket fuel without an issue, with one exception. That was a 1,690cc Harley with high compression pistons and high lift cams. It needed premium grade. 
 

Lexus hybrids are very understressed and generally in a low state of tune. Imo premium fuel is throwing money away. I have a friend who loses sleep over his fuel “going off” if he leaves his motorbike for a couple of months without riding it. I rode my motorbike yesterday for the first time in 12 months for its MOT. It started immediately and ran perfectly. 

Supermarkets sell around half of all fuel now. If it was bad I reckon there would be emperical evidence rather than bar room stories.
 

Just my two penny’s worth. 

Now that's what I call a good value tuppence-worth!

Thank you 🙂

[DTR]

Unless you do shedloads of miles, the extra cost is negligible compared to the depreciation. If you dump the car after 3 years, go for the cheapest. If it’s a keeper, give it a treat now and again.

Dave

[Illogan]

9 hours ago, Baggers said:

I tend to use supermarket petrol in my ES and, frankly, give it very little thought. But I have been reading about Shell v-Power which apparently cleans the injectors and gives improved performance and economy. What is the experience of members of the LOC in this area please? Is it worth paying the extra?

It's all a rather subjective subject (with fans v critics) covering every opinion.

My experience - for what it's worth, is that my 9-year-old RX ran acceptably well on E10 simply because I thought that was how it was meant to run.

It would be a trifle more responsive on Branded E5 (or it was my imagination), but didn't use it too often, just occasionally would maybe clean the engine a little (?)

Post Pandemic, the premium attached to E5 locally was anything up to 15p per litre ("Funny - I thought" (in my best Dudley Moore voice)) - - someone was extracting the Michael.

And, on one of the many threads on here, I noticed several recommendations for Millers Oils EPS - Multi Shot Ethanol Protection Fuel Additive, which is meant to combat some of the negative effects of E10 upon the fuel system, and also lifts the fuel rating by a point or two. (and allows one to use E10)

I'm currently on my fourth tank of petrol (E10) dosed with Millers Oils EPS - and it has made a difference (or I'm imagining it) to the car's performance, being just a little more responsive (though my racing days are over), but it HAS improved my MPG, both city and motorway driving, by, at the moment, 5%.

I'm happy with that, and IF it also "takes better care of me fuel system", then I'm very happy.

It costs £28 for a litre from Demontweeks via eBay, s0 works out at 3p per dosed litre of fuel.

[Herbie]

Never used anything other than bog-standard supermarket unleaded, or E10 as it's now known, in any car that I've owned and never had any problems whatsoever. If people are that bothered about keeping their engines/injectors clean they should convert to LPG as that's the cleanest fuel you'll get.

If you have a super-duper engine then yes, super-duper petrol makes sense. If, however, you have a standard engine that isn't tuned to use the super-duper petrol, then it's just a waste of money.

[Malc1]

49 minutes ago, Herbie said:

Never used anything other than bog-standard supermarket unleaded, or E10 as it's now known, in any car that I've owned and never had any problems whatsoever. If people are that bothered about keeping their engines/injectors clean they should convert to LPG as that's the cleanest fuel you'll get.

If you have a super-duper engine then yes, super-duper petrol makes sense. If, however, you have a standard engine that isn't tuned to use the super-duper petrol, then it's just a waste of money.

BUT on more aged cars using E5 reducing  the degrading long term ethanol effect on the fuel system, rotting plastics whatever 

it’s not just octanes per mpg per £££   It’s also the degradation of the system effect 

Malc 

[Cs150]

Some performance and specialist cars you can literally feel the difference with higher octane fuel. Quite often the smoothness is the obvious difference. With the ES it makes no difference 95 or 100 RON it feels the same. 

[Littorio]

Just to jump in here that if you look at all the 'boy racer' types and testing they have done and documented it has been found that Tesco E5 is more consistent in quality then all the big brands. They also tend to check their fuel more regularly as they have been hit in the past with fuel issues in the media 

I have found when running on a full tank (55Litre) of E5 I constantly achieve 2MPG (41MPG Vs 43MPG) better fuel economy over running a tank of E10 with a very slight increase in performance in 'Normal' mode, there would be the odd switch to Sport+ at times on both fuels for a swift over take.

[Baggers]

Interesting variety of views here! Well, I have just filled up with V-Power and later in the week I have a 500 mile round trip planned so I will see how it performs. If I have any interesting observations to make I will share them on here. In the meantime, many thanks for your comments and advice.

[RONNIE W HODGEKINSON]

3 hours ago, Baggers said:

Interesting variety of views here! Well, I have just filled up with V-Power and later in the week I have a 500 mile round trip planned so I will see how it performs. If I have any interesting observations to make I will share them on here. In the meantime, many thanks for your comments and advice.

Great David.. That will be Really Beneficial to the Variety of L.O.C members Who Share different Views On This topic..I Await Your Deliberation....!!!!

[Brian R]

Perhaps it's time to conduct a blind test similar to those they used by washing powder advertisers.

Personally, I have never been at all bothered whether it is supermarket or branded fuel. This largely because I've physically watched tankers from all brands, supermarkets, et al being filled from the same storage tanks and notably at what used to be the Shell, then Mobil, then BP, then Petroplus, refinery at Coryton, Essex. In itself, petrol is a powerful solvent and I struggle to accept the marketing claims this fuel is better than that fuel. Perhaps a slightly different story with the advent of E10, but modern engine systems will and do adjust their timings according to the octane rating of fuel. When did you last hear your engine "pinking"? Essentially, if your engine was designed to run on a particular octane then that's all it needs and a higher rating will not magically improve performance because your knock sensor will adjust the engine timings accordingly. As for the detergents put into fuels, then I'd like to know what these are given they must be pretty potent when diluted by 6000 gallons of petrol held within a tanker.

As ever with these debates one's experience is purely subjective, but I'm quite content to continue to fill up with Sainsbury's fuel given my mpg will only vary according to how my right foot feels on the day.

[RONNIE W HODGEKINSON]

2 hours ago, Brian R said:

Perhaps it's time to conduct a blind test similar to those they used by washing powder advertisers.

Personally, I have never been at all bothered whether it is supermarket or branded fuel. This largely because I've physically watched tankers from all brands, supermarkets, et al being filled from the same storage tanks and notably at what used to be the Shell, then Mobil, then BP, then Petroplus, refinery at Coryton, Essex. In itself, petrol is a powerful solvent and I struggle to accept the marketing claims this fuel is better than that fuel. Perhaps a slightly different story with the advent of E10, but modern engine systems will and do adjust their timings according to the octane rating of fuel. When did you last hear your engine "pinking"? Essentially, if your engine was designed to run on a particular octane then that's all it needs and a higher rating will not magically improve performance because your knock sensor will adjust the engine timings accordingly. As for the detergents put into fuels, then I'd like to know what these are given they must be pretty potent when diluted by 6000 gallons of petrol held within a tanker.

As ever with these debates one's experience is purely subjective, but I'm quite content to continue to fill up with Sainsbury's fuel given my mpg will only vary according to how my right foot feels on the day.

Lots Of Scientific Thought There Brian..!!

[Bluemarlin]

I can only speak of my own experience, that being that I notice no change in performance between fuel brands and E5/E10. I do however notice a difference in mpg bewteen E5 and E10, with E5 giving me anywhere between 3-5 mpg improvement. The worst I've found for mpg being Sainsburys, and the best being Esso E5.

[Julncamp54]

I always use shell fuel as my local station in shell. It also has pay at pump. 
I use E10 for local trips but always use the v power for long trips . I have the shell rewards programme and they give me money back after I have filled up 10 times and more if I use v power 

Subjectively the v power gives a smoother response and quieter engine noise and better fuel mpg .

[GMB]

V power is generally about 10p a litre more expensive than tesco momentum 99 octane around here. One particular  garage chain monopoly are still asking 169p per litre - I go elsewhere.

I notice absolutely no difference in performance between the two; in the isF the 200t and the harley 114 cu in.

BUT, having worked for shell research in the 70's I know the amount of study that goes into the composition of this fuel and those extras are very important for the benefit and lifespan of your engine. So, begrudgingly I pay up, about £5 extra per fill-up.

BTW, shell rewards at £1 per ten fills is a derisory benefit. Using 10 litres of momentum saves you £1. I just wish all the shell concessionnaire garages would play fair and not try to rip us off.😬

[Cs150]

48 minutes ago, GMB said:

for the benefit and lifespan of your engine. So, begrudgingly I pay up, about £5 extra per fill-up.

BTW, shell rewards at £1 per ten fills is a derisory benefit. Using 10 litres of momentum saves you £1. I just wish all the shell concessionnaire garages would play fair and not try to rip us off.😬

For the A25 Dynamic Force engine fitted to the ES and other recent vehicles it will be complexity that impacts the lifespan. The longer term outlook is good for this unit but perhaps not as bright as that of the previous generation units: https://www.motorreviewer.com/engine.php?engine_id=127

[H3XME]

1 hour ago, GMB said:

V power is generally about 10p a litre more expensive than tesco momentum 99 octane around here. One particular  garage chain monopoly are still asking 169p per litre - I go elsewhere.

I notice absolutely no difference in performance between the two; in the isF the 200t and the harley 114 cu in.

BUT, having worked for shell research in the 70's I know the amount of study that goes into the composition of this fuel and those extras are very important for the benefit and lifespan of your engine. So, begrudgingly I pay up, about £5 extra per fill-up.

BTW, shell rewards at £1 per ten fills is a derisory benefit. Using 10 litres of momentum saves you £1. I just wish all the shell concessionnaire garages would play fair and not try to rip us off.😬

Shell V-Power and Tesco Momentum 99 are pretty much the same fuel. They are the best two you can buy in this country. I did a lot of reading recently on this and overall Momentum99 came back with fractionally better results purely due to consistency. V-Power is not as consistent in terms of quality as 99Momentum. But like I said the difference was a fraction. So both equally as good! I used to fill up V-power but since I moved places I no longer have Shell anywhere nearby, so 99Momentum it is! Car is happy, MPGs are better compared to E10 so I say it's a no brainer. 

Generally speaking the worst fuel is at Asda. Asda E10 is horrible.

[Baggers]

I have done about 500 miles on V Power since posing my question above and I honestly can’t perceive any discernible difference between it and supermarket petrol. Performance is comparable, economy is slightly improved and the car engine is still running quietly and smoothly. I will stick with it for the time being but my impression is that the car feels just the same as the before.

[e-yes]

On 9/6/2023 at 9:52 AM, Cs150 said:

For the A25 Dynamic Force engine fitted to the ES and other recent vehicles it will be complexity that impacts the lifespan. The longer term outlook is good for this unit but perhaps not as bright as that of the previous generation units: https://www.motorreviewer.com/engine.php?engine_id=127

The ES 300h uses the FXS variant. It is an Atkinson cycle and not pretending to actually understand the thermodynamics in practice, I think in operation what that means is that the intake valve remains open even after the compression cycle has started (some of the charge is actually pumped out back into the manifold)

The advantage I can see from using low ethanol mix is due to the fact that these engines use both Direct and Port Injection. Again, I don't have data to know when which of the two are in operation but I can guess that low speed stop and go type situations would use Direct Injection whereas steady state will switch over to Port Injection

In case of Port Injection, the charge has a better opportunity to "wipe off" the blowback from the top of the valve. If a higher quality fuel is in use then that probability of cleaning up the valve top increases. In the FXS (Atkinson) variant some of the charge is actually pumped out of the cylinder during compression... so even the bottom of the valve gets a better chance of "wiping off" blowback. That is the advantage I can think using a higher quality fuel may have.

But considering typical domestic use of let's say no more 10k miles a year, my opinion is that fuel cost is the least of running costs. Especially considering buyers who are able to afford the monthly PCP on a £40k car clocking under 10k miles a year, fuel cost should really not be an issue... but happy to be called out on that bias. I would say every now and then get a tank of the premium (previously the "usual") but don't expect to notice any better fuel economy or better power output.

In terms of use, torque barely or never changes between premium and normal fuel. So moving off from stop and lower speed stop-and-go type situations will never get affected and even more so in a hybrid where there is a sizeable electric traction available from get go. Peak output may get affected, but really... that won't matter for 90% of the situations. On the Hybrid especially, will definitely not matter because the traction motor fills in (most of the times) the initial load and then the desired speed is achieved in a reasonably short amount of time. Towing is prohibited on the hybrid ... so that doesn't count as well.

Using premium fuel may be better for the engine though. Now this may affect someone who wants to keep the car for the entire warranty period which in case of Lexus is 100k miles or 10 years.

In commercial/taxi operation I think the warranty miles may well be exhausted before the 10 year period so might as well save money on the fuel and stick with the cheaper fuel.

In domestic application, probably may make sense to fill up with the better fuel now and then or maybe even every time just as an engine maintenance activity rather than in an expectation to achieve better performance or fuel economy. And then again, the 300h already has better than adequate performance where it matters and it really is not a track car anyways. And for sure I don't know any ES300h owner who are not happy with the fuel economy.

--E

[Malc1]

Looking at my Ls400 Manual from 1991 it’s simply 95 octane or better  BUT. we KNOW that it’s not the octanes I’m worried for now,  it’s the new fuel Ethanol content degrading the fuel lines and systems 

The E5 is majority anti Ethanol proofed 

We understand other more modern cars might also be Ethanol degradation susceptible too

Malc