Is the LS600h the pinnacle for Lexus?

[taffie999]

I'm missing the LS400 I sold, and I'm thinking of a more modern replacement. I've considered an RX450h but reports of a jiggly ride on poor roads (the default in my area) put me off slightly. I then started thinking about a newer LS. The 600h still has the incredible V8 engine, possibly the best engine ever made, before downgrading to a V6 in the LS500h. I want the luxury and silence I had in the 400, with a more modern feel. Is the 500h the pinnacle of Lexus development? Anyone owned one and can share your experience?

[Stanwithaplan]

I completely understand where you are coming from and I'm really looking forward to reading the answers to your question. I very nearly went for a 600 but while I was looking I found another 400 that I couldn't resist. My expectation was the 600 would be a good modern alternative but my only concern was whether I would like the CVT feel or not. This chap on youtube has one and goes pretty in depth https://youtube.com/@swisscarguy

[jpjsavage]

It was funny to see this come up today. I had a LS600h for four years and loved every minute of it. I sold it when my wife and I got our RX450h a few years ago. I've been thinking about finding another LS600h or perhaps a LS500. I'm writing this from the Lexus dealer where my RX is in for a full service and I've just had a test drive in a pre-owned LS500 (around three years old, 32k miles). I am finding it very hard to pinpoint any noticeable differences between the two (beyond the obvious styling, updates to various systems/technologies, etc). The experience of luxury, comfort and general driving are very similar to me. I guess the option of spending around £47k on a LS500 or c.£10-15k on a LS600 might be worth considering too. However, both are excellent cars that, I guess, may not be being manufactured for too much longer in their current forms. So, enjoy one or the other whilst you can!

[Malc1]

I’ve seriously toyed with the idea of trading into a Ls430. 460 or 600 and being a long time long term Ls owner and driver of my present Mk3 ( prior Mk1&2 too ) about 25 years …… and having too much surplus ££££ to disturb me 😂

I decided, not on a whim though, to forget these further options due in large measure to the inevitability of Air Suspension issues, dopeily expensive ball joints issues, glass delamination, steering rake £2k manifestations with impossible modern electronics whatever AND bought myself a 2nd Ls400 from a Member on here 

she’s a 91 Mk1 car with 97k miles ( she’s in for a service today fingers xd all is well ) 

my existing Mk3 is 247k miles and nowt dramatic wrong ….. lots of aged paint blemishes however, dings and dents 

if you had the “nerve” you might find yourself a brilliant early’ish Ls400 with ULEZ expansion discovering a few that at £4500 a year extra fees makes some owners aghast 

I’ve seen some emerge, my “ new” one too …. I’ve had her a week ! 
 

you might save yourself £50/100k in the process and retain that immense reliability, presence and comfort too 

 

btw we also have a ULEZ proofed car for our London visits ( 2006 Honda Legend …. rare’ish car too ) 

 

if only they made a new Ls400 with zero modern electronics eh ! 
 

I'm sure you’ll make the right choice and enjoy her immensely ……. bank balance severely depletion though maybe

good luck 

Malc 

[jpjsavage]

The good news is that with Lexus' new 10,000 miles service, get a full year manufacturer warranty, system - you can buy any Lexus and not have to worry about anything until the car reaches 10 years old or 100,000 miles. This is a brilliant proposition for anyone wanting a more modern car and no worries about any major mechanical issues you mention. Lexus warranties are pretty bullet proof in my experience. 

[taffie999]

2 hours ago, Stanwithaplan said:

I completely understand where you are coming from and I'm really looking forward to reading the answers to your question. I very nearly went for a 600 but while I was looking I found another 400 that I couldn't resist. My expectation was the 600 would be a good modern alternative but my only concern was whether I would like the CVT feel or not. This chap on youtube has one and goes pretty in depth https://youtube.com/@swisscarguy

How do you rate the RX, in terms of refinement, ride comfort etc? One has come up near me and I may take a look this week.

[taffie999]

20 minutes ago, jpjsavage said:

The good news is that with Lexus' new 10,000 miles service, get a full year manufacturer warranty, system - you can buy any Lexus and not have to worry about anything until the car reaches 10 years old or 100,000 miles. This is a brilliant proposition for anyone wanting a more modern car and no worries about any major mechanical issues you mention. Lexus warranties are pretty bullet proof in my experience. 

it really is. I can't imagine getting a 2017 Jag or Merc and getting a four year warranty

[jpjsavage]

2 minutes ago, taffie999 said:

How do you rate the RX, in terms of refinement, ride comfort etc? One has come up near me and I may take a look this week.

The RX is very refined. However, it does not compare in refinement to the LS (in any form). 

 

1 minute ago, taffie999 said:

it really is. I can't imagine getting a 2017 Jag or Merc and getting a four year warranty

It is an awesome offer. If I buy the LS500 from Lexus, I can drive it for another 68,000 miles (probably six years for me) and have a full manufacturer warranty for all of them (providing I service the car at Lexus - and why wouldn't you do that?).

[taffie999]

2 hours ago, taffie999 said:

I'm missing the LS400 I sold, and I'm thinking of a more modern replacement. I've considered an RX450h but reports of a jiggly ride on poor roads (the default in my area) put me off slightly. I then started thinking about a newer LS. The 600h still has the incredible V8 engine, possibly the best engine ever made, before downgrading to a V6 in the LS500h. I want the luxury and silence I had in the 400, with a more modern feel. Is the 500h the pinnacle of Lexus development? Anyone owned one and can share your experience?

Interesting video. Although not that offensive, that's a hell of a lot of engine noise compared to my LS400. The fuel consumption was also pretty bad, well below official figures. Perhaps that chap is not adapting his driving to suit a hybrid. I learned that my LS400 was so aerodynamic I could coast a lot more than in most cars and it made a difference to mpg without boring myself to death. I wasn't aware that the 600 had the CVT box, but I'm still surprised how noisy it seemed. Perhaps the LS400 was the pinnacle for Lexus? If they made the series 4 LS400 now with a conventional gearbox and perhaps a hybrid system, Android Auto, and a reversing camera, I would happily pay 80k for one.

[scythe]

16 hours ago, taffie999 said:

Is the 500h the pinnacle of Lexus development? Anyone owned one and can share your experience?

I bought a three year old 500h three months ago, and am starting to adapt to it now. Previously I had a 2007 460SEL which I owned since 2008. 

Driving the 500h is a different experience.  I'd not changed my 460 because after 2009 Lexus nerfed all 460s, with things such as adaptive cruise missing, leaving only the 600 with a full box of toys, and I wasn't at all keen on the idea of a hybrid. (Incidentally, if you haven't come across the word 'nerfed', ask your grandchildren about it - it's mine that taught me how to use the word!)

The biggest difference is the way the engine and transmission feel.  The 460 I found brilliant. It's engine rarely turned over faster than 2000rpm, cruised at about 1400rpm, and was just simply obedient. Just a slight increase on the accelerator caused an effortless and instantaneous response.  I drove with the ECT in the power position, which didn't seem to affect the mpg at all. In this position the car always got itself into the best gear. If you wanted power, it would drop into a low gear and give all the acceleration you could want and more - instantly.  It was so good that quickly you stop noticing that the engine and gearbox exist.

The 500h is as fast as the 460.  It pulls away using the traction Battery, almost silently, with only tyre noise audible. When the engine starts, though, things aren't  simple.  The hybrid system always starts up in Eco mode, which sounds good, but when I drive away up a hill the engine sticks in too low a gear, and the accelerator needs a lot of movement before it will drop down into a lower gear and accelerate reasonably rapidly.  I have to remember to put the power into sport mode when I start it.  Then the gearbox behaves as you'd hope it would.  However, there are several different noises as you make progress.  The engine when it starts can be audible and sound a bit rough compared to a V8.  There are two motors/generators in the car.  The main drive motor does whine a bit when you gently regenerate.  When there is more serious regeneration the engine (which is connected to the other motor/generator) engages and uses its motor/generator to also regenerate.  This makes more noise.  Nothing terrible, nothing bad, but it's there.  Also the car has ten "gears", so does a lot of shifting, and the shifts can be noticeable.  Again nothing bad, but noticeable. 

The 500h has air suspension which is much like the 460, though the tyres are run flats, and so a bit less absorbent of minor stuff.  I think the 460 ride was just a little better than the 500h.

The 5.2 metre length of the 500h is a bit of an issue, but the real problem is its manoeuvrability. It has a long wheelbase, and its turning circle isn't great.  The 460 was good (but not as good as the 430!) You do have think in advance with the 500h if you're going through a drive through, or even just parking in a car park.  Talking of which, the 500h has a better rear camera, which can go ultrawide, and side cameras, and rear side radar that picks up pedestrians, so this is all better.

The 460's driving seat was nice and accessible, and well padded and adjustable, but driving across Ireland I'd find myself squirming in my seat, because it wasn't perfect.  I think the 500h seats are perfect.  Every surface can be adjusted, and though it's taken me weeks to do it I've got all 28 adjustments so refined that I just don't want to get out of the car.  The seats are a very good reason to get a 500h! They hold you as tightly as you want to be held in precisely the way you want to be supported, and if you ask them nicely they'll also give you a very decent bit of pummelling.

I've intended to record on here the differences between the two cars, as much for my own benefit as anything else, so later on I'll precis the above and add on all my other observations.

To directly answer the OP's second question, no.  The LS500h isn't the pinnacle of Lexus development.  Hopefully that is still to come. However, in the meantime I think the 500h is a good stepping stone.  I'm glad that I've made the change, but at the same time I'm looking forwards to what they do in their next all-electric version.  

: o )

[Malc1]

Wow a connoisseur 

Well scribed …… and was the cost £££ of great value to you ? 
Malc 

[jpjsavage]

5 hours ago, scythe said:

I bought a three year old 500h three months ago, and am starting to adapt to it now. Previously I had a 2007 460SEL which I owned since 2008. 

Driving the 500h is a different experience.  I'd not changed my 460 because after 2009 Lexus nerfed all 460s, with things such as adaptive cruise missing, leaving only the 600 with a full box of toys, and I wasn't at all keen on the idea of a hybrid. (Incidentally, if you haven't come across the word 'nerfed', ask your grandchildren about it - it's mine that taught me how to use the word!)

The biggest difference is the way the engine and transmission feel.  The 460 I found brilliant. It's engine rarely turned over faster than 2000rpm, cruised at about 1400rpm, and was just simply obedient. Just a slight increase on the accelerator caused an effortless and instantaneous response.  I drove with the ECT in the power position, which didn't seem to affect the mpg at all. In this position the car always got itself into the best gear. If you wanted power, it would drop into a low gear and give all the acceleration you could want and more - instantly.  It was so good that quickly you stop noticing that the engine and gearbox exist.

The 500h is as fast as the 460.  It pulls away using the traction battery, almost silently, with only tyre noise audible. When the engine starts, though, things aren't  simple.  The hybrid system always starts up in Eco mode, which sounds good, but when I drive away up a hill the engine sticks in too low a gear, and the accelerator needs a lot of movement before it will drop down into a lower gear and accelerate reasonably rapidly.  I have to remember to put the power into sport mode when I start it.  Then the gearbox behaves as you'd hope it would.  However, there are several different noises as you make progress.  The engine when it starts can be audible and sound a bit rough compared to a V8.  There are two motors/generators in the car.  The main drive motor does whine a bit when you gently regenerate.  When there is more serious regeneration the engine (which is connected to the other motor/generator) engages and uses its motor/generator to also regenerate.  This makes more noise.  Nothing terrible, nothing bad, but it's there.  Also the car has ten "gears", so does a lot of shifting, and the shifts can be noticeable.  Again nothing bad, but noticeable. 

The 500h has air suspension which is much like the 460, though the tyres are run flats, and so a bit less absorbent of minor stuff.  I think the 460 ride was just a little better than the 500h.

The 5.2 metre length of the 500h is a bit of an issue, but the real problem is its manoeuvrability. It has a long wheelbase, and its turning circle isn't great.  The 460 was good (but not as good as the 430!) You do have think in advance with the 500h if you're going through a drive through, or even just parking in a car park.  Talking of which, the 500h has a better rear camera, which can go ultrawide, and side cameras, and rear side radar that picks up pedestrians, so this is all better.

The 460's driving seat was nice and accessible, and well padded and adjustable, but driving across Ireland I'd find myself squirming in my seat, because it wasn't perfect.  I think the 500h seats are perfect.  Every surface can be adjusted, and though it's taken me weeks to do it I've got all 28 adjustments so refined that I just don't want to get out of the car.  The seats are a very good reason to get a 500h! They hold you as tightly as you want to be held in precisely the way you want to be supported, and if you ask them nicely they'll also give you a very decent bit of pummelling.

I've intended to record on here the differences between the two cars, as much for my own benefit as anything else, so later on I'll precis the above and add on all my other observations.

To directly answer the OP's second question, no.  The LS500h isn't the pinnacle of Lexus development.  Hopefully that is still to come. However, in the meantime I think the 500h is a good stepping stone.  I'm glad that I've made the change, but at the same time I'm looking forwards to what they do in their next all-electric version.  

: o )

That is really interesting. Thank you for taking to time to share your observations. It is helping me think through my options. Enjoy the LS500!

[steve2006]

Finding a decent LS400 these days is getting harder but if you have the time to wait not impossible however there is still a problem.

Yes the spare parts situation……it was maybe 10 years ago when aftermarket parts like smoked indicators were widely available for around $30.00 but now even the basics like coil springs are obsolete with none left on the stock shelves.

OK you can get certain pattern parts like UCAs and LBJs but they generally aren’t made to the same quality as OEM or have the same life span, personally I wouldn’t trust any aftermarket critical suspension parts.

As time marches on this spares situation will continue to spread up the line with LS430/460 parts becoming NLA, we know the engines with regular servicing are good for hundreds of thousands of miles but a broken spring will not only leave you stranded but may be the end of the car.

[Malc1]

1 hour ago, steve2006 said:

or have the same life span

perhaps another 25 years lifespan for a replacement might be beyond the Will of many here to worry too much about 😅

Malc

[steve2006]

Wait until we check that website “How many left” and find just 2 LS400s, one still on the road and the other Sorned. 😀

[Malc1]

Oh my, that will be mine then  🤩

Malc

[Spock66]

Slightly more than two left at the moment, but numbers now rapidly declining...

Vehicles licensed every year 2022-2012. Click model names for more stats.

		2022	2021	2020	2019	2018	2017	2016	2015	2014	2013	2012
	LEXUSLS400	353	413	487	560	655	765	907	1.1k	1.2k	1.4k	1.8k
	LEXUSLS400 AUTO	630	676	744	828	954	1.1k	1.2k	1.3k	1.4k	1.5k	1.7k

[Malc1]

that's 983 in 2022 then  ??

Malc

[Spock66]

Yes, excluding SORN's (check the website if you want more details).

[Stanwithaplan]

On 8/23/2023 at 12:36 PM, Malc1 said:

I’ve seriously toyed with the idea of trading into a Ls430. 460 or 600 and being a long time long term Ls owner and driver of my present Mk3 ( prior Mk1&2 too ) about 25 years …… and having too much surplus ££££ to disturb me 😂

I decided, not on a whim though, to forget these further options due in large measure to the inevitability of Air Suspension issues, dopeily expensive ball joints issues, glass delamination, steering rake £2k manifestations with impossible modern electronics whatever AND bought myself a 2nd Ls400 from a Member on here 

she’s a 91 Mk1 car with 97k miles ( she’s in for a service today fingers xd all is well ) 

my existing Mk3 is 247k miles and nowt dramatic wrong ….. lots of aged paint blemishes however, dings and dents 

if you had the “nerve” you might find yourself a brilliant early’ish Ls400 with ULEZ expansion discovering a few that at £4500 a year extra fees makes some owners aghast 

I’ve seen some emerge, my “ new” one too …. I’ve had her a week ! 
 

you might save yourself £50/100k in the process and retain that immense reliability, presence and comfort too 

 

btw we also have a ULEZ proofed car for our London visits ( 2006 Honda Legend …. rare’ish car too ) 

 

if only they made a new Ls400 with zero modern electronics eh ! 
 

I'm sure you’ll make the right choice and enjoy her immensely ……. bank balance severely depletion though maybe

good luck 

Malc 

congrats on your new motor Malc. Good for you. Post some pics please:o)

[Stanwithaplan]

On 8/23/2023 at 1:00 PM, taffie999 said:

How do you rate the RX, in terms of refinement, ride comfort etc? One has come up near me and I may take a look this week.

Sorry I've no experience of an RX.

[talaipwros]

On 8/23/2023 at 10:29 AM, taffie999 said:

. I've considered an RX450h but reports of a jiggly ride on poor roads

Not sure who told you that, mine feels like a magic carpet.

[jpjsavage]

10 hours ago, talaipwros said:

Not sure who told you that, mine feels like a magic carpet.

We just had new tyres put on ours and, after a full service, it is now a beautifully smooth ride even on the dodgy UK roads.

[Redefined]

Thanks to @scythe I now know what 'nerfed' is (or might be)... Maybe something like, wriggled with holes, but will ask my 8 year old later. But more importantly, that I don't want a 500H (or a 600H) which after the OP opened the thread had got me thinking.

Not that I could afford any of them anyway, but at least I don't need to think of em as a future car. Mainly the turning circle but also the shifts in the 500H. It is indeed a gorgeous car though if ever I saw one.

Best work harder to keep the old LS430 going I guess...

[Malc1]

neighbour next door with the Bentley, one of his other " ordinary " cars an Audi, needs a new headlamp, the bulbs gone, that's all ..... as he's just sold the car ......  £700 to fix

My God, why on earth does one really want these new fandangled beasts that cost silly fortunes to keep going 

Sorry, I digress

YES, keep the Ls430 going for at least another 10 years Shafiq .....  we're doing our Green Bit by the planet and Greta and not scrapping our cars 

Malc