Is the ES too cheap

[Linas.P]

18 minutes ago, rayaans said:

My response was evoked by the fact you simply have no balanced arguments. All negatives all the time. Atleast the forum would be more enjoyable if you said something vaguely balanced rather than constant negative drivel

It seems you haven't read my comments then... I point out many positives, but yes you right, overall conclusion on the balance is always more negative. But it can't be any other way... If we take ES300h for example and as you say you so tired of me over many years, you should know already what I don't like then. If it would be any other way, then perhaps I would own one myself. 

I don't like FWD, I don't like underpowered/small (usually 4 cylinder) engines and I don't like SUVs. What I like is NA engines that are smooth, usually V6/L6 or up, I like RWD cars and I like coupes... ohh and above all I love good value luxury cars! That is pretty much my main reason of liking Lexus. So it is not like I am always negative about everything, but from that list there are obvious things that are good or bad in my opinion. ES is very reliable car, I actually like how it looks, it has great seats with very nice leather, it is relatively modern with many cool toys, BUT it is too big, it is FWD, I always thought 300h was underpowered, it has too many scratchy plastic bits in the interior and despite being relatively good value, everything considered I don't like the car more than I like it. So my overall rating for the car is that I don't really like it.

If you go back and see what I have said, you will find all those positives mentioned in my posts, but it is you who only focuses on negatives, not me. You are the one who tries to "debunk me" with lame reasons like "you don't own it so you don't know". As such you inevitably fail to "debunk" me and then act like butt hurt child, because I fail to listen to you. If you come at me with some coherent argument, if you at least attempt to use some form of evidence in your post, then more likely than not within 3 posts we would be "on the same page". We may agree on compromises, we may admit that out of our points were were both wrong on some and right on the others, we may still agree to disagree, but the forum will be better place, because that discussion took place, something was analysed, something was discussed, some conclusion was reached.

Instead what you demanding is not to discuss that is contrary to what you believe is true... I am sorry, pull the plug from LOC server and just should it down, because if we can't have opinion and can't discuss anything, then what is even the point. If I ever wanted to be brainwashed by just positives I can always watch Lexus advertisement and be done with it.

[rayaans]

42 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

It seems you haven't read my comments then... I point out many positives, but yes you right, overall conclusion on the balance is always more negative. But it can't be any other way... If we take ES300h for example and as you say you so tired of me over many years, you should know already what I don't like then. If it would be any other way, then perhaps I would own one myself. 

I don't like FWD, I don't like underpowered/small (usually 4 cylinder) engines and I don't like SUVs. What I like is NA engines that are smooth, usually V6/L6 or up, I like RWD cars and I like coupes... ohh and above all I love good value luxury cars! That is pretty much my main reason of liking Lexus. So it is not like I am always negative about everything, but from that list there are obvious things that are good or bad in my opinion. ES is very reliable car, I actually like how it looks, it has great seats with very nice leather, it is relatively modern with many cool toys, BUT it is too big, it is FWD, I always thought 300h was underpowered, it has too many scratchy plastic bits in the interior and despite being relatively good value, everything considered I don't like the car more than I like it. So my overall rating for the car is that I don't really like it.

If you go back and see what I have said, you will find all those positives mentioned in my posts, but it is you who only focuses on negatives, not me. You are the one who tries to "debunk me" with lame reasons like "you don't own it so you don't know". As such you inevitably fail to "debunk" me and then act like butt hurt child, because I fail to listen to you. If you come at me with some coherent argument, if you at least attempt to use some form of evidence in your post, then more likely than not within 3 posts we would be "on the same page". We may agree on compromises, we may admit that out of our points were were both wrong on some and right on the others, we may still agree to disagree, but the forum will be better place, because that discussion took place, something was analysed, something was discussed, some conclusion was reached.

Instead what you demanding is not to discuss that is contrary to what you believe is true... I am sorry, pull the plug from LOC server and just should it down, because if we can't have opinion and can't discuss anything, then what is even the point. If I ever wanted to be brainwashed by just positives I can always watch Lexus advertisement and be done with it.

You do realise that the first 2 pages of this thread with your comments had absolutely no balance and basically reads Lexus ES is **** right? I really do suggest you read through it again. Like I said, no positives at all and certainly not balanced.

Now you keep talking about the ES plastics but fail to mention 5 series / E Class interior squeaks and creaks, the NOX and adblue issues etc. Btw you can't even get a 540i since 2019 anyway so why are you comparing that to an ES300h?

[Steven C]

1 hour ago, george72 said:

es300h feels a little down market compared to a bmw  5 series.

Just demonstrates how people have a different perception of cars. My BMW I thought was common and nothing special. Due to their success they are everywhere. Whereas I feel the ES has a more executive style and certainly not common. 😉 I won't be going back to a BMW either.

[Linas.P]

4 minutes ago, rayaans said:

You do realise that the first 2 pages of this thread with your comments had absolutely no balance and basically reads Lexus ES is **** right? I really do suggest you read through it again. Like I said, no positives at all and certainly not balanced.

Now you keep talking about the ES plastics but fail to mention 5 series / E Class interior squeaks and creaks, the NOX and adblue issues etc. Btw you can't even get a 540i since 2019 anyway so why are you comparing that to an ES300h?

First of all - even if it was the case, so what? Secondly, you need to decide for once what you want. Because basically what you saying here is that before every comment I make I have to give 15 pages disclaimer to put it into context, to explain all the positives before answering the questions? And what is then? You going to say - stop writing the essays, nobody has time to read post so long? 

As such, I just have to assume whoever is reads the comment should already know the context e.g. that ES is a Toyota Avalon, it is reliable, it is fuel efficient etc. I am not denying those positives exists, but I just can't repeat them every time. So your expectations are just not realistic and not practically possible to include in every post. 

Not only that the topic is - "why ES failed to sell"... and quite clearly ES didn't fail to sell, because it was most amazing care ever, nor because of the positives. It failed because of the negatives, so it is just logical to focus on negatives and answer the question. 

In my experience 5-Series/E-Class uses better materials and are more solidly built... and that is not even in the some obscure areas under the dash. ES has very cheap, scratchy and hard plastic surrounding gear leaver, windows controls and central locking, the buttons below steering wheel. The so called "katana inspired hadori style" inserts are just horrible cheap and scratchy plastic. What it suppose to represent is "damascus like" layered steel, but it is really just very cheap and scratchy plastic. You don't get anything like that on BMW or MB, I am not saying they are made from pure diamonds, but if it is brushed aluminium then it is brushed aluminium, if it is wood, then in particular on E-Class it is open pore real wood. Probably worst part is wood effect black plastic surrounds (those around gear leaver and windows switches), it is really just shameless wood grained black plastic. Now sure here I am specifically talking about 2019 F-Sport + Takumi Pack, that was the car I test drove. I am aware that Takumi is apparently slightly better and again in 2021 materials were improved again. I said I will change my mind when I try newer model if it indeed improves the things, but to be fair it is not on my priority list. But I just can't always include the same situation in every comment, yet if you ever in doubt then you can clarify by asking "what trim you tried, what year" and we can have that clarified. Squeaks and creaks were not the issue in examples I drove, some of them were already high-mileage cars thrown around quite a bit because of being rentals, they are class above ES and they feel that way. 

NOX and Ad-blue issues are only diesel related, I have never recommended anyone to consider diesels and if that would be the only options i.e. 520d vs ES300h then I would get...... yes the old GS300h. I would not chose diesel engine and I would not choose FWD, those are both deal-breakers for me. 

When we talking about ES failing to sell we are talking about ES "current model" that is the model which was introduced in 2018 and runs to this day, as such mentioning BMW 540i is reasonable, BMW does not sell 530e either. You now get either 520i or i5 eDrive40... but that is new BMW 5-Series, ES really competes with last gen 5-Series. And that is actually good point - ES standing is not improving as times goes by, BMW was ahead and they are now pulling further ahead by updating the 5-Series. 

[Linas.P]

4 minutes ago, Steven C said:

Just demonstrates how people have a different perception of cars. My BMW I thought was common and nothing special. Due to their success they are everywhere. Whereas I feel the ES has a more executive style and certainly not common. 😉 I won't be going back to a BMW either.

But that just proves your decision was not rational. And that is fine it doesn't need to be rational, but that is exactly what I am talking about when saying that owners opinion poorly explains why car does not sell.

It seems you bought it, because it was unusual and uncommon, but that is not the same as being better build and more luxurious.

And this is not criticism of your choice - for you it was important that the car is uncommon and different... fine. But that can only last if the car for some reason is not appealing for majority of buyers. That is exactly the question - why the car is not appealing?

Now when it comes to true exclusive Luxury cars - that answer is price... they are much better than anything else, but they remain exclusive because they are simply so expensive that many people would like to have them, but none can afford them. Lexus ES isn't that expensive - so exclusivity cannot be explained by price, perhaps it is just not good in some way and people don't like? Those reasons are exactly the point of topic.  

[Steven C]

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

It seems you bought it, because it was unusual and uncommon, but that is not the same as being better build and more luxurious.

Wrong I'm afraid. First reason is I got sick of plugging in the 530e as it only did 25 miles on Battery (summer only) not the claimed BMW figure of 37. Secondly I did not like the low driver seat postion. Thirdly I had it two and half years and the warranty runs out in Sept. I buy new but don't keep cars above three years. Finally the BMW attracted the addional premium road tax total of £565. This ES does not as it was below £40k. I only do 8K mileage per year as I have a E Class to split the mileage so the road tax made the BMW expensive to sit on a driveway.

The ES was second choice to a Jag XF. There is an eight month wait for factory order for XF's. I was not prepared to wait that long. The ES was readily available and in the colour I wanted. I like big cars so the ES fitted that requirement. It certainly was not bought as it's unusual,uncommon or cheap.  As for whether you think the interior or anything about is not as good as the BMW as I have told you before that is your opinion. I am quite happy with extra things it has that the BMW didn't including a sun roof and other safety features. The BMW attracts a certain type of person and that became evident as I always had other BMW drivers either wanting a race or demonstrate how fast they could overtake or go round aroundabout. Don't miss any of that. Don't get that with E Class drivers and not very likely with ES drivers as I have yet to see one. 🤣

[Lex_1988]

I think it's a fair point that Lexus have limited the appeal of the ES through not offering a wider engine range. There's so many great things about lexus vehicles in general but the biggest flaw is that you need to go up to a full fat 'F' car, if you prioritise performance over economy. 

Sticking a 350h engine into the ES wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. But not sure whether there's a business case for that.

In fact you'd probably argue whether theres a business case for lexus to be selling any non SUV vehicles.

 

 

[Linas.P]

2 minutes ago, Steven C said:

Wrong I'm afraid. First reason is I got sick of plugging in the 530e as it only did 25 miles on battery (summer only) not the claimed BMW figure of 37. Secondly I did not like the low driver seat postion. Thirdly I had it two and half years and the warranty runs out in Sept. I buy new but don't keep cars above three years. Finally the BMW attracted the addional premium road tax total of £565. This ES does not as it was below £40k. I only do 8K mileage per year as I have a E Class to split the mileage so the road tax made the BMW expensive to sit on a driveway.

The ES was second choice to a Jag XF. There is an eight month wait for factory order for XF's. I was not prepared to wait that long. The ES was readily available and in the colour I wanted. I like big cars so the ES fitted that requirement. It certainly was not bought as it's unusual,uncommon or cheap.  As for whether you think the interior or anything about is not as good as the BMW as I have told you before that is your opinion. I am quite happy with extra things it has that the BMW didn't including a sun roof and other safety features. The BMW attracts a certain type of person and that became evident as I always had other BMW drivers either wanting a race or demonstrate how fast they could overtake or go round aroundabout. Don't miss any of that. Don't get that with E Class drivers and not very likely with ES drivers as I have yet to see one. 🤣

Cool... Now that you provided actual context of your decision it becomes clearer why you made it. but there was no way interpreting your above post this way. You said BMW is too common, hence not special. And ES more executive and uncommon.

That said I don't believe you compare it like for like - BMW certainly has sunroof option and even choice between panoramic or standard sunroof, same for safety features, be it paid option. Again there are nuances - ES had face-lift in 2021 and many told me that it has significantly improved the quality of materials inside, however that still does not explain much about success or lack-off for the entire model. Current ES model is getting towards the end of it's run and sales are declining as expected, so even if it is true that they addressed material/quality issues toward the end of the run, then it would be the case of "too little too late".

25 miles EV only miles will be fine for many people ad despite no longer being a thing, before there were a lot of benefits of owning PHEV. As they are no longer available I guess that explains why BMW no longer offers 530e in UK. As for attracting special kind of people - I don't believe that is true, but I do believe ES owners won't challenge you going quick round the roundabout, as that would be frankly quite embarrassing to watch 😄 

Where I agree, is that people will have completely different needs and you clearly chosen car that suits yours... that is fine.

[Linas.P]

7 minutes ago, Lex_1988 said:

I think it's a fair point that Lexus have limited the appeal of the ES through not offering a wider engine range. There's so many great things about lexus vehicles in general but the biggest flaw is that you need to go up to a full fat 'F' car, if you prioritise performance over economy. 

Sticking a 350h engine into the ES wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. But not sure whether there's a business case for that.

Worldwide that is what sells most units... Not sure FWD only 350 makes that much sense, certainly not in UK, but lack of choice of models and engines certainly hurt Lexus over time. 

I think if they would have treated UK as primary market and always offered all the models here, they would have built larger niche here. Surely it is bad growth strategy to offer only part of your models and then to restrict them to single engine option...  

[rayaans]

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

First of all - even if it was the case, so what? Secondly, you need to decide for once what you want. Because basically what you saying here is that before every comment I make I have to give 15 pages disclaimer to put it into context, to explain all the positives before answering the questions? And what is then? You going to say - stop writing the essays, nobody has time to read post so long? 

As such, I just have to assume whoever is reads the comment should already know the context e.g. that ES is a Toyota Avalon, it is reliable, it is fuel efficient etc. I am not denying those positives exists, but I just can't repeat them every time. So your expectations are just not realistic and not practically possible to include in every post. 

Not only that the topic is - "why ES failed to sell"... and quite clearly ES didn't fail to sell, because it was most amazing care ever, nor because of the positives. It failed because of the negatives, so it is just logical to focus on negatives and answer the question. 

In my experience 5-Series/E-Class uses better materials and are more solidly built... and that is not even in the some obscure areas under the dash. ES has very cheap, scratchy and hard plastic surrounding gear leaver, windows controls and central locking, the buttons below steering wheel. The so called "katana inspired hadori style" inserts are just horrible cheap and scratchy plastic. What it suppose to represent is "damascus like" layered steel, but it is really just very cheap and scratchy plastic. You don't get anything like that on BMW or MB, I am not saying they are made from pure diamonds, but if it is brushed aluminium then it is brushed aluminium, if it is wood, then in particular on E-Class it is open pore real wood. Probably worst part is wood effect black plastic surrounds (those around gear leaver and windows switches), it is really just shameless wood grained black plastic. Now sure here I am specifically talking about 2019 F-Sport + Takumi Pack, that was the car I test drove. I am aware that Takumi is apparently slightly better and again in 2021 materials were improved again. I said I will change my mind when I try newer model if it indeed improves the things, but to be fair it is not on my priority list. But I just can't always include the same situation in every comment, yet if you ever in doubt then you can clarify by asking "what trim you tried, what year" and we can have that clarified. Squeaks and creaks were not the issue in examples I drove, some of them were already high-mileage cars thrown around quite a bit because of being rentals, they are class above ES and they feel that way. 

NOX and Ad-blue issues are only diesel related, I have never recommended anyone to consider diesels and if that would be the only options i.e. 520d vs ES300h then I would get...... yes the old GS300h. I would not chose diesel engine and I would not choose FWD, those are both deal-breakers for me. 

When we talking about ES failing to sell we are talking about ES "current model" that is the model which was introduced in 2018 and runs to this day, as such mentioning BMW 540i is reasonable, BMW does not sell 530e either. You now get either 520i or i5 eDrive40... but that is new BMW 5-Series, ES really competes with last gen 5-Series. And that is actually good point - ES standing is not improving as times goes by, BMW was ahead and they are now pulling further ahead by updating the 5-Series. 

I disagree.

I own the Merc and can categorically say it has poor plastics in certain areas. It's not as solidly built and squeaks. Spend some time on the Merc forum and you'll notice what everyone says. Mercs generally do creak a lot more.

The previous gen 5 series has plastic hexagonal cheap trim as well. The window switches are surrounded by cheap plastic. The facelift is better. An ES is put together better than a 5 series and I can show you some videos to prove it.

Nox issues are not diesel related. Merc petrol engines have Nox sensors too. How do I know? Yep I had to replace one with a 6 month wait on back order 

[rayaans]

41 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Cool... Now that you provided actual context of your decision it becomes clearer why you made it. but there was no way interpreting your above post this way. You said BMW is too common, hence not special. And ES more executive and uncommon.

That said I don't believe you compare it like for like - BMW certainly has sunroof option and even choice between panoramic or standard sunroof, same for safety features, be it paid option. Again there are nuances - ES had face-lift in 2021 and many told me that it has significantly improved the quality of materials inside, however that still does not explain much about success or lack-off for the entire model. Current ES model is getting towards the end of it's run and sales are declining as expected, so even if it is true that they addressed material/quality issues toward the end of the run, then it would be the case of "too little too late".

25 miles EV only miles will be fine for many people ad despite no longer being a thing, before there were a lot of benefits of owning PHEV. As they are no longer available I guess that explains why BMW no longer offers 530e in UK. As for attracting special kind of people - I don't believe that is true, but I do believe ES owners won't challenge you going quick round the roundabout, as that would be frankly quite embarrassing to watch 😄 

Where I agree, is that people will have completely different needs and you clearly chosen car that suits yours... that is fine.

530e is coming in October. Limited line up at the moment. Likely to be the best seller in the range. 

There was only one sunroof option on the G30 saloon. Driving assistant on the BMWs are quite an expensive option

Sales of most cars decrease towards the end of their lifecycle. 

[serbarry]

10 hours ago, rayaans said:

Some toys are better than others....

Linas thinks his is better than everyone else's all the time 🤣

Yes you are right: some toys are better than others, but do we really need a competition to decide who's the best toy? Like children fighting because one child doesn't like other's toy? Can't just everyone be happy with his toy and say:" I don't care what you think because I love my toy". 

Linas never said I am better than everyone else here, nor I know lexus better than others here. He is just critical of the brand, probably harsh and straightforward in his comments but he never insulted anyone. You just have to accept a different opinion than yours even if you don't agree with it and after all what matters is that you are happy with your car. I wish everyone here had told me that my GS was rubbish and wasted my money and not paying 2,800 euros for service and repairs, rather than congratulating me for the purchase like you did and paying that huge money. And actually my wife told me that, and it hurted me because she is my wife, not someone in the forum.

[Notamech]

@rayaans whats with the anger and personal attacks on Linas dude? Theres no need for it. He is entitled to his opinion irrespective of however ill-informed or unbalanced you think it is. Providing a blanced opinion just to please you wont change the fact that the ES doesn't sell much. I think he did a good job of explaining why that might be. You can choose to ignore things you don't like rather than being petty on a public forum. 

[GMB]

49 minutes ago, Notamech said:

@rayaans whats with the anger and personal attacks on Linas dude? Theres no need for it. He is entitled to his opinion irrespective of however ill-informed or unbalanced you think it is. Providing a blanced opinion just to please you wont change the fact that the ES doesn't sell much. I think he did a good job of explaining why that might be. You can choose to ignore things you don't like rather than being petty on a public forum. 

Well said.     It is nice to see Teddies going back into prams. We all need to be able to take criticism. The clever bit is actually listening to it for good or bad. It is always better to be informed. Take it or leave it.

BTW If Linas is looking for a bargain I will knock 10% off the retail price of my Lovely Is200t just for him. The problem is that if he did buy it ( the moon would leave orbit first ) I would not find much that I liked to replace it at the price.

In an ideal world I would buy a 20 year old naturally aspirated V6 or V8 that just had a spark and petrol to worry about - no computers and nightmare systems just plain and simple. 427 hemi V8s with Holley 4 barrel carb is my dream.....🤡💔

 

[dutchie01]

Wow, hope the dust has settled now. Did not notice the start of this thread but boy it exploded fast.

One argument i did not see skimming the messages is in my idea where it all starts, The Looks.

The ES ( and the LS) look like nothing else on the road and will not be everybodies taste for sure. Massive grill, unbalanced proportions, strange side profile with big overhangs front and rear and then the rear... chaotic styling and something very popular in the nineties, a trunk spolier. All enough to kill interest before it starts. 

i think it is a good car in its own right and will provide years of comfortable and happy motoring for the people that bought one but the looks set it apart from the beginning and will secure exclusivity. Lowering the price will not create more interest.

 

[Shahpor]

 

1 hour ago, dutchie01 said:

Wow, hope the dust has settled now. Did not notice the start of this thread but boy it exploded fast.

One argument i did not see skimming the messages is in my idea where it all starts, The Looks.

The ES ( and the LS) look like nothing else on the road and will not be everybodies taste for sure. Massive grill, unbalanced proportions, strange side profile with big overhangs front and rear and then the rear... chaotic styling and something very popular in the nineties, a trunk spolier. All enough to kill interest before it starts. 

i think it is a good car in its own right and will provide years of comfortable and happy motoring for the people that bought one but the looks set it apart from the beginning and will secure exclusivity. Lowering the price will not create more interest.

 

The styling is important, but I don't think it is the primary reason for the sales issues, mainly because I believe it doesn't look that bad compared to its rivals!

By way of example, I saw this posted on Facebook recently:

The M3 and 760i prove two things to me:  First, BMW peaked in the early 2000's! And second, people will buy anything with a BMW badge no matter how it looks!

Now, I should say that these are M cars and the driving experience of the new ones is by all accounts very good, but the styling extends to the standard range as well and they are still selling like crazy.

I remember the shock and outrage when the new 3 series was introduced, but it doesn't look like it has stopped people purchasing them, so it seems people will still buy them regardless of how they look.

[peniole]

Boy am I glad I have set the ignore algorithm to automatic. It detects anyone who hasn't driven the car for more than 10 minutes and automatically ignores them when they're trying to explain how the thing drives what mpg it gets and how cheap and nasty the plastics are long term. No wait I did that manually. One can dream of these functions though 😁

[GMB]

11 minutes ago, Shahpor said:

 

The styling is important, but I don't think it is the primary reason for the sales issues, mainly because I believe it doesn't look that bad compared to its rivals!

By way of example, I saw this posted on Facebook recently:

The M3 and 760i prove two things to me:  First, BMW peaked in the early 2000's! And second, people will buy anything with a BMW badge no matter how it looks!

Now, I should say that these are M cars and the driving experience of the new ones is by all accounts very good, but the styling extends to the standard range as well and they are still selling like crazy.

I remember the shock and outrage when the new 3 series was introduced, but it doesn't look like it has stopped people purchasing them, so it seems people will still buy them regardless of how they look.

Absolutely right. The new BMs look truly ugly especially compared to their earlier models - even the 2002tii was a looker

[Steven C]

1 hour ago, dutchie01 said:

The ES ( and the LS) look like nothing else on the road and will not be everybodies taste for sure.

You're right. It must be the ugliest car I have ever owned at the front but when I get in and drive it I forget that. Love driving it. Big grills,big wheels seem to be the order of the day. God know's why.

[Dippo]

6 minutes ago, Steven C said:

You're right. It must be the ugliest car I have ever owned at the front but when I get in and drive it I forget that. Love driving it. Big grills,big wheels seem to be the order of the day. God know's why.

You never owned a Scorpio then!

[dutchie01]

28 minutes ago, Shahpor said:

 

The styling is important, but I don't think it is the primary reason for the sales issues, mainly because I believe it doesn't look that bad compared to its rivals!

By way of example, I saw this posted on Facebook recently:

The M3 and 760i prove two things to me:  First, BMW peaked in the early 2000's! And second, people will buy anything with a BMW badge no matter how it looks!

Now, I should say that these are M cars and the driving experience of the new ones is by all accounts very good, but the styling extends to the standard range as well and they are still selling like crazy.

I remember the shock and outrage when the new 3 series was introduced, but it doesn't look like it has stopped people purchasing them, so it seems people will still buy them regardless of how they look.

Only 25/30% of total sales of BMW are in Europe nowadays with Asia being the most important market with roughly 50%. As most growth has been there the designers are focusing their attention more towards Asian taste. People there like a bit of bling, showing off their wealth and understated design does not go well. In Europe its the other way around we tend to be more conservative so CHROME and GRILLE is something not received too well here. As it is too expensive to develop and produce a car tailored to each market the designers are caught in the middle here. The ES is not designed for Europe and it clearly shows. That of course does not mean that some people do like the current design. Interesting fact is that Lexus did design the new LBX for the European markets/taste. Hence a more understated and "shy" styling.

[GMB]

23 minutes ago, Dippo said:

You never owned a Scorpio then!

Lucid Air sapphire beautiful? And they are not even chinese. They are from Arizona designed in California. I want one.

Ford scorpio ugly. Made in Germany just like the new fugly BMWs

[beyond the blue]

2 hours ago, peniole said:

Boy am I glad I have set the ignore algorithm to automatic. It detects anyone who hasn't driven the car for more than 10 minutes and automatically ignores them when they're trying to explain how the thing drives what mpg it gets and how cheap and nasty the plastics are long term. No wait I did that manually. One can dream of these functions though 😁

I'm just glad l won't get cornered by them in a pub.

[Steven C]

2 hours ago, Dippo said:

You never owned a Scorpio then!

No thank god. 😂

[dutchie01]

1 hour ago, Steven C said:

No thank god. 😂

Driving around in a scorpio nowadays will get you more attention than a ferrari