Is the ES too cheap

[Cs150]

20 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

On first one that is just a myth - I would like to say it has been debunked, but sadly it wasn't. It is such a niche subject that it seems nobody is bothered to study it, so this stereotype remains. It seems to me that people who don't like BMW drivers are either jealous or stuck in the overtaking lane long after they should have moved over. Or perhaps BMWs are just more noticeable compared to grey Vauxhall Insignia or some other boring car stuck on your rear bumper. 

I have done quite a bit of driving and I have not found any brand that consistently attracts poor drivers. I am sure that there are idiots in all cars, BMW included, but I would not say that BMWs are consistently what causes me issues. I have identified one trend - usually people who drive "bad cars" are as well "bad drivers", French cars are good start, but again it is not a brand issue, the issue is that anyone who likes driving and who likes cars are unlikely to choose French car (with very few exceptions) and if somebody has chosen French car, then they likely did it because they are cheap and because they don't care, because they do not like driving and they do not care what they drive. As certain Jeremy Clarkson remarked - "would you like to be operated by surgeon who is not interested in medicine and does not care... probably not (or something along those lines)". And I think he is onto something - person who is not interested in driving and doesn't likes doing it is unlikely to be good driver. And people in French cars are not malicious, just a little bit clueless sometimes, not concentrating, not indicating, not moving over, generally being in the wrong place and at the wrong time... which I find not acceptable for the road, but nothing personal.

On the second subject - that is just rational, it is not lack of critical thinking or frugality, if once leases the car for 3 years, then they don't care what will happen to it after 5. And if we look statistically, then something like 3/4 of new car sales are some form of finance (even more for luxury cars), even remaining 1/4 buyers who buy cars outright not necessarily keep them longer than 5 years. So the customer who buys brand new car and keeps it for 10-years/100,000miles is exceptionally rare. I would assume older folk who maybe get their pension lump sum after retiring would be the only group that does it. As such why would you overpay, or sacrifice something for the car that is overengineered to last much longer than you need it. Why would new car owner overpay for the car just so that third or fifth owner 15 years down the line would benefit from it? Now I am grateful that there are some people like that, because I primarily buy used cars (just because I am more frugal than it would be generally heathy to be), but that is not common and it is becoming increasingly rare. 

Very convincing, will look to acquire a high powered BMW on a PCP deal as soon as time permits...

[Steven C]

11 hours ago, Linas.P said:

just sit in 5-Series and ES and it is obvious right away - it stands no chance against BMW 5-Series

Sorry disagree. I have just come from a 2020 BMW 530e and also own an E Class 220CDI and the ES is far superior to both of them. I have had E Class's for 14 years now. 

[Mincey]

7 hours ago, Steven C said:

Sorry disagree. I have just come from a 2020 BMW 530e and also own an E Class 220CDI and the ES is far superior to both of them. I have had E Class's for 14 years now. 

The opinion of someone who has actual experience of each vehicle matters here.

[Linas.P]

17 hours ago, Steven C said:

Sorry disagree. I have just come from a 2020 BMW 530e and also own an E Class 220CDI and the ES is far superior to both of them. I have had E Class's for 14 years now. 

Not sure what are your criteria, but ES is worse in any objective way and it isn't even my opinion.

BMW 5-Series interior is better quality, no contest... I guess depending on the options - if you get the cheapest so called Dakota Leather or worse Sensatec vinyl (not sure you can in 5-Series) and you comparing it with Semi-Aniline leather in ES Takumi then you comparing apples and oranges. Yes sure Semi-Aniline leather is nicer, but as well Takumi starts at £56,000, so choose BMW with at least Nappa leather and then make comparisons... But that does not end here and BMW can offer Merino leather as well, whereas Nappa is slightly worse than Lexus equivalent the Merino is definitely nicer. The plastics in BMW is far superior, overall more sturdy and premium, no cheap plastic inserts, no scratchy door bins and button surrounds. Last time I checked BMW 530e is as well plug-in hybrid, lower tax, ULEZ and congestion charge exempt and has 0-60 in 5.1s ,as well it is RWD and rather fun to drive if you wanted to?! For me comparison ends here, but I appreciate not everyone cares... although it seems quite a few more people care than ES owners would like to admit. Remember we are trying to explain here not "why you love your car", but "why market does not care about it". And we haven't even scratched surface on infotainment, possible configuration options etc. 

9 hours ago, Mincey said:

The opinion of someone who has actual experience of each vehicle matters here.

Actually, quite opposite. Opinion of someone who owns ES is only useful when explaining why ES is good (i.e. positives), however it is biased when making objective comparisons or explaining why model has failed. That I don't own either ES, nor competitor allows me to more objective and less biased. In short I have no stake in it so I don't care who wins and who loses - that is objectivity for you. 

I get it - you like your ES, otherwise you would have bought something else, but that pretty much automatically eliminates you as "impartial" person.

Besides - I have driven last gen 5-Series extensively (2017–2023) and when it comes to last gen E-Class (2016-2023) I pretty much feel like I have owned one... every time I rent the car that is what I get, I have probably 20k miles on it. So this "actual experience and ownership" is non-sense. I have been into enough cars in my life to get into Lexus ES and right away say "this is Toyota Avalon with Lexus badge".  And by the way I drove both 2021 Toyota Camry and 2022 Toyota Avalon (in few of those rare times when I didn't get E-Class), so I have good perspective on "rebadged Avalon" as well. If owning the car would be in any way relevant for having opinion, or reviewing one, then auto-journalism would not exist at all.

[e-yes]

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

Remember we are trying to explain here not "why you love your car", but "why market does not care about it".

https://www.motor1.com/features/633246/best-selling-luxury-cars-us-2022/

Europe/UK are not representative markets of Lexus (or any other non-German auto manufacturers). The auto-journalism has clear baises which become very clear once one has to spend ones money on getting a car and are left wanting when they expected the superior German cars to match basic expectations like to not start rattling in a mere three months of ownership from new.

[Linas.P]

8 minutes ago, e-yes said:

https://www.motor1.com/features/633246/best-selling-luxury-cars-us-2022/

Europe/UK are not representative markets of Lexus (or any other non-German auto manufacturers). The auto-journalism has clear baises which become very clear once one has to spend ones money on getting a car and are left wanting when they expected the superior German cars to match basic expectations like to not start rattling in a mere three months of ownership from new.

Sorry - have I missed something here... I thought are talking about UK/Europe.. no?

I am sure it is different in US, in US they as well have well established line-up, they had ES there from the launch, they have engine choices, they are more competitive on price, German cars are more expensive in US... there is is whole list of reason why Lexus sales in US are different from UK/Europe.

Auto journalists may have biases, but the fact that you disagree with them is not necessary the proof of that. 

As well BMW rattling after 3 month ownership is either singular cars from thousands or myth... There is no denying Lexus being undisputed reliability #1 is more reliable than BMW, but your perception on BMW "unreliability" is exaggerated. Just look at recent surveys... in every single category BMW has models in top 5 and even when they are at the bottom of top 20, the reliability is still like 80% of the cars for up-to 5 years old. Meaning that 80% of BMW cars had NONE, not a single fault, not even most minor one. Sure 20% of them had faults compared to maybe 1-8% Lexus cars, but it does not mean it was major fault, nor it proves your argument that basically "every single BMW rattles after 3 months" - it is just not true. If you say outside of warranty they are disaster waiting to happen - I agree! But we already discussed why that is irrelevant. 

https://www.whatcar.com/news/2022-what-car-reliability-survey/n23397

Note as well that in Luxury cars BMW is #2 and Lexus is nowhere to be found... Why? Because they simply were unable to sell enough cars to even be on the list. I am sure GS/ES would be #1, but they are so niche that survey could not find results... 

[Steven C]

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

That I don't own either ES, nor competitor allows me to more objective and less biased. In short I have no stake in it so I don't care who wins and who loses - that is objectivity for you. 

No it means you don't know what you are talking about. Your comments are just your opinion, which is fine, but that's all it is. I don't know why you think you are an expert on car reviews. While you may find the ES inferior to a BMW even though by your own admission have never owned one means I take what you say with a pinch of salt. There are a number of reason why I traded in the my BMW (which I bought from new) after only doing 10k in it. I did plenty of research on other cars including the Jag XF before making my choice of the ES and I will see if my choice was correct as I get to use it.  I really don't know why you are on a Lexus Owners site slagging off the products?

[e-yes]

9 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Sorry - have I missed something here...

Yes.

[Linas.P]

1 hour ago, Steven C said:

No it means you don't know what you are talking about. Your comments are just your opinion, which is fine, but that's all it is. I don't know why you think you are an expert on car reviews. While you may find the ES inferior to a BMW even though by your own admission have never owned one means I take what you say with a pinch of salt. There are a number of reason why I traded in the my BMW (which I bought from new) after only doing 10k in it. I did plenty of research on other cars including the Jag XF before making my choice of the ES and I will see if my choice was correct as I get to use it.  I really don't know why you are on a Lexus Owners site slagging off the products?

Been trough this before - your way of argument is defined by informal fallacy known as "false authority" or if we want to be very fancy then argumentum ad verecundiam. Owning something doesn't give you some unique right, knowledge or authority. And if you follow the same logic then you simply can't compared ES to anything you have not owned, thus leaving you unable to speak about anything else. Have you owned Lada Niva or Perodua Ativa? No? What if I have and I say they are better than ES, does that make me right? We would be in deadlock until we can find one guy who has owned both and can mediate... That is why there is objective way of comparing cars by specific metrics, rather than biased opinion of one owner. And that is why motoring journalism can exist, despite none of them owning any of the cars they review, but according to you they automatically don't know what they are talking about! Right? No owning the car no knowledge?! Likewise there cannot ever be anything negative said about something somebody doesn't own, even if they have done the research, drove it, compared it and cautiously decided it is bad value/offer/car. By your logic, they just cannot know it, because they don't own it... are you saying that if anyone would buy ES300h despite being confident it is not car for them they would suddenly become "converts" and say - "stupid me, I didn't realise how amazing this cars is"... your line of argument simply doesn't make sense... that is all. 

I had exactly the same argument about Lexus 8FARTS engine, remember very well people telling me that because I have not owned IS200t it means I cannot have valuable opinion about it and I am just "jealous", because "it would leave IS250 in dust". Fast forward I bought RC200t, which is basically coupe version of IS200t and to my horror I was precisely 100% correct about each and every detail, just based on having been in one for a day as courtesy car. 

Same for "slagging" of Lexus products, been there and did that... this is not religious cult with one and only unquestionable truth... There are good products and there are bad products, Lexus makes some amazing cars and they make some not so amazing cars... I am not brand ambassador, paid influencer or marketing executive. I do not gain anything from "slagging", nor from praising Lexus products, so I am free to say what I think is right. Sometimes that is just opinion, sometimes it is fact, based on research, reviews, personal inspection and comparison. 

So get over it - your opinion is no more valuable than mine because you own something. You owning the car only makes you better in answering the questions when somebody comes and ask something very specific only the long term owner would know e.g. "I found this button, but cannot figure out what it does" or "when on full lock and only in cold morning I get this funny sound what could it be"... and in that case, as an owner of the car, you would be best placed to answer it. Or owners manual... 

[Steven C]

13 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

your opinion is no more valuable than mine because you own something.

I'm not the one making ridiculous comparisons between Lexus or BMW or offering any opinions. You really need to find something else to do. What an utter load of nonsense.

[Linas.P]

2 hours ago, e-yes said:

Yes.

Okey then... 

On 8/7/2023 at 1:19 PM, HotSpur-Lexus said:

there are just over 4000 on the roads in the UK <...> wonder why there has been relatively little take up

...

14 minutes ago, Steven C said:

I'm not the one making ridiculous comparisons between Lexus or BMW or offering any opinions. You really need to find something else to do.

Please point to a single "ridiculous" comparison... 

As well... you kind are offering your opinions...

As well... I will decide what I will do and when and I don't need to be told by you or anyone else when I what I have to do... so thank you not.

As well if you wondering why I am I still here - there was a time when Lexus made great cars which I really enjoyed... they are still making some, just not selling them in UK. In last 11 years I had 8 Lexus cars and as of right now I own 3...

[LenT]

On 8/8/2023 at 10:46 PM, Cs150 said:

Nothing against German cars but simply a personal dislike of the BMW attitude on the roads that tends to be evidenced most days. A badge that often is seen in the rear view mirror a few feet from the rear bumper. A badge that often symbols poor levels of consideration and driving ability based on frequent observed events.

Do you think it possible that the BMW attitude that you so dislike is more due to there being more BMW drivers than, say, Lexus drivers?  And in any cohort of drivers you will find a spread of degrees of driving ability.  Thus you are more likely to encounter an inconsiderate BMW driver than a Lexus driver - there are simply more people driving BMWs.

There may even be an element of ascribing supposed national characteristics to the cars themselves, irrespective of who’s actually driving them.  So the next complaint will be about Merc car mats being used to reserve the best sun loungers! 

Like many here, I have owned both a BMW and now a Lexus - and many others in between.  I’m not aware that I adopted a different driving personality depending on the badge in front.  Do you?

If I had,  I’m sure MrsT would have been the first to point it out.

It might happen if I changed from a sedate family saloon to a two seater sports, but I would hope it would be more a matter of using the increased performance rather than discarding common courtesy.

[Mincey]

Linas: what colour is this?

[e-yes]

11 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Sorry - have I missed something here... I thought are talking about UK/Europe.. no?

I am sure it is different in US,

You seem to be interested in objective logic but then are also meandering about.

You have a few points you are using to argue, so lets enumerate them first

• BMW 5er is better than Lexus ES because it is RWD ?
  • Yet, in the US which is a more established market, it sold more than the RWD BMW. So much more that it is competing in the market which is occupied by SUVs in which category again the Lexus product sold more than a German product.
  • OR, the other interpretation is that Lexus ES is somehow RWD in US
  • OR, laws of physics work differently in US and FWD is as good as RWD there. (Hint: it is not the laws of physics which work differently there, that market is a lot more mature purely due to the numbers involved)
• BMW 5er like to like priced is more luxurious than Lexus ES. Hence it sells more in the UK/Europe (hold that thought*)
  • This is subjective. I don't want to argue. I remember from my BMW ownership that it used to start to creak at the door hinges and seems. At service the BMW dealership would sort that out by using some "product". That car I didn't own from new so this is just opinion. However I have had the ES since Jan 2021 now and it doesn't squeak, creak or rattle. It buzzes... a bit but not a lot.
• Lexus used to make good cars. Now they don't. Therefore BMW 5er is a better car.
  • When I wanted to replace my used 3er (and it had done about 37k miles) I test drove newer 5er and 3er and my reaction was "what try truck did they do to the steering". Dead as stone.
  • Test drove a Mazda 6 and my reaction was "The truck ! Is this really a FWD !" . The way Mazda are able to tune the rear multilink on that car, driven sensibly, that car made me feel it "rotates around my shoulders". That is one of the haloed "ethos" of a RWD car. But again since we are talking about "how a car feels" you are going to argue that this is merely opinion and not logic.
  • The Lexus ES as well has a very confident steering feel in addition to other things I like about it.
  • The same "they don't make it like they used to" argument applies to BMW as well (or for that matter any other "luxury" segment from German brands)

 About that (hold that thought*) earlier. Remember when Mazda won the LeMan with the legendary B7xx ? The German/Europen manufacturers went all the way to change the rules which disallowed Mazda from running that car ever again in LeMan. That's how "mafioso" the setup is. The German companies own a lot of brands (some of British near legendary or institutional brands) and have supply chain agreements with the ones they don't own yet (Aston Martin, Land Rover).

I don't have evidence that the German brands are forcing the automotive press' hand here but one has to use their brains when something doesn't "feel right".

If you still think you not missing out on something.. I welcome you to answer @Mincey's question above.

--E

 

[LenT]

 

5 hours ago, Mincey said:

Linas: what colour is this?

 

Well, if you want to be pedantic James, the technical answer is….

 Black is not a colour; a black object absorbs all the colours of the visible spectrum and reflects none of them to the eyes.

I trust that resolves the issue!  😊

 

[Linas.P]

1 hour ago, e-yes said:

You seem to be interested in objective logic but then are also meandering about.

You have a few points you are using to argue, so lets enumerate them first

• BMW 5er is better than Lexus ES because it is RWD ?
  • Yet, in the US which is a more established market, it sold more than the RWD BMW. So much more that it is competing in the market which is occupied by SUVs in which category again the Lexus product sold more than a German product.
  • OR, the other interpretation is that Lexus ES is somehow RWD in US
  • OR, laws of physics work differently in US and FWD is as good as RWD there. (Hint: it is not the laws of physics which work differently there, that market is a lot more mature purely due to the numbers involved)
• BMW 5er like to like priced is more luxurious than Lexus ES. Hence it sells more in the UK/Europe (hold that thought*)
  • This is subjective. I don't want to argue. I remember from my BMW ownership that it used to start to creak at the door hinges and seems. At service the BMW dealership would sort that out by using some "product". That car I didn't own from new so this is just opinion. However I have had the ES since Jan 2021 now and it doesn't squeak, creak or rattle. It buzzes... a bit but not a lot.
• Lexus used to make good cars. Now they don't. Therefore BMW 5er is a better car.
  • When I wanted to replace my used 3er (and it had done about 37k miles) I test drove newer 5er and 3er and my reaction was "what try truck did they do to the steering". Dead as stone.
  • Test drove a Mazda 6 and my reaction was "The truck ! Is this really a FWD !" . The way Mazda are able to tune the rear multilink on that car, driven sensibly, that car made me feel it "rotates around my shoulders". That is one of the haloed "ethos" of a RWD car. But again since we are talking about "how a car feels" you are going to argue that this is merely opinion and not logic.
  • The Lexus ES as well has a very confident steering feel in addition to other things I like about it.
  • The same "they don't make it like they used to" argument applies to BMW as well (or for that matter any other "luxury" segment from German brands)

 About that (hold that thought*) earlier. Remember when Mazda won the LeMan with the legendary B7xx ? The German/Europen manufacturers went all the way to change the rules which disallowed Mazda from running that car ever again in LeMan. That's how "mafioso" the setup is. The German companies own a lot of brands (some of British near legendary or institutional brands) and have supply chain agreements with the ones they don't own yet (Aston Martin, Land Rover).

I don't have evidence that the German brands are forcing the automotive press' hand here but one has to use their brains when something doesn't "feel right".

If you still think you not missing out on something.. I welcome you to answer @Mincey's question above.

--E

 

Before I begin - I just wanted to say I do appreciated your formatted and structured response and that is nice, much better than "because you don't own it you suck" attitude. 

The question was specifically - "why Lexus ES did not catch on in UK", OP suggested that maybe pricing it lower has made the car look as inferior in public eye, I don't believe it is the price, but what is very clear is that we are talking about UK. What is happening in US, for the sake of this discussion may as well be another planet with different laws of physics. Different preferences, brand perception, pricing, fuel prices, roads... everything is different about US. The Lexus NX is considered small SUV there, over here it is considered "Large Luxury" SUV and we not even scratching surface here, the reasons why certain cars sells in US and does not sell here cannot be more different. Just a quick glance BMW 5-Series costs £47,000 in US and Lexus ES costs £33,000, that is 28% cheaper in well established market (and that is AWD model, although it is as well compared to 530i). So if we apply same logic in UK, then ES should start at ~£36,800, but that is kind of futile exercise because I don't believe it is the price that matters here.

• Is ES worse than 5-Series ONLY because it is FWD vs. RWD? No and I never said that. RWD in European luxury saloon market is what gives the car certain status, maybe it is cultural thing, maybe it is because Europeans expects their large saloons to "handle", yet the same is not necessary true in US... there are many reasons. I just state historic precedence of all luxury saloons being either RWD or AWD, and all brands that tried to get into that sector with FWD cars failing. But that is just one of many reasons... 
  • Yes US is established market for ES specifically where the model was offered since 1990. So yes ES there will have "easier ride" and it is enough just to do facelift/cosmetic update to stay competitive. UK/Europe is new market and it is much harder to enter, marketing has to be right etc. and this is where I think Lexus messed-up, positioned themselves wrong, marketed it wrong, against wrong competitors and expected to Europeans automatically accept it as equal. BMW spent 40+ years developing this segment, obviously any new brands will struggle. Lexus even failed with GS which was in all ways superior product to ES, how the ES suppose to achieve anything?! 
  • Now if you have done the research then this would have prevented this embarrassing moment... You see - yes ES in US has AWD. And even myself I would not mind ~10 years old ES 350 AWD. Although current 350 seems to be only FWD and one has get 250 for AWD... little bit weird decision considering AWD would be more beneficial for 350... but that is Lexus for ya!
  • So you right - laws of physics works the same there, except ES offers both FWD and AWD in US and that makes a different.  Besides they didn't even offered hybrid at all until 2017, so majority of ES sales in US are driven by ES350/250, even to this day. 
  • When you say Lexus ES sells "many units" you wrongly assume it is same ES300h as in UK that does... NO! It is model as a whole and ES300h sales are quite weak worldwide. 
• Is BMW priced like-for-like is more Luxurious than Lexus ES... No and I have not said that either - I would argue that 5-Series is more Luxurious than ES... period. They are not in the same segment at all and that is what Lexus failed to understand - just making car of the same size and putting "luxury" badge on it doesn't make it equal to 5-Series... it is more subtle. 
  • First of all, you can't price them like for like because BMW is much more expensive, but it is as well fundamentally more Luxurious, and I mean it literally down to the platform it is built on and design choices that badge change cannot achieve. So the comparison here is really - is BMW 5-Series more luxurious than Toyota Avalon... answer to which is - obviously it is more luxurious. Toyota Avalon is more mass market economy saloon, BMW is luxury saloon, you paying premium to get BMW, but Toyota is probably better value... so ES is better value, but it is not competitor to 5-Series, it is different class car in different market niche. Simply said - you get lower class car for less money. And yes sorry... I am basically saying ES just cheapens Lexus brand... For Toyota that is fine - they can market Avalon/Camry as competitor to Mazda 6 or to VW Arteon without cheapening themselves. Lexus does cheapen itself when they go after BMW, get's bounced and has to admit they really sitting at "losers" table with Mazda and VW after failing to challenge "the boss".  The way to establish yourself in this very competitive and traditional market brand has to offer "better for more", not "less for cheaper", such proposal does not attract buyers looking for Luxury, it works in economy cars market, but not in Luxury cars market. And am sure this is where OP was coming from - "perhaps if ES would be priced higher it would be better"... yes, but ONLY if they actually offer substantially more and better and Toyota Avalon does not offer neither more, nor better, not even with Lexus badge and 10 extra kg of sound deadening on it.
  • And I know it all sounds really "anti-Lexus", but it is not. Problem is that people arguing this case wrong and make wrong comparisons. ES represents nicer and more luxurious Toyota Avalon, not a competitor for 5-Series... So it makes sense in US for somebody who says "I kind of want Toyota Avalon, sort of reliable mile muncher, without much sportiness, but large enough to sit 4 people comfortably, but I am kind off more upper class, so I want it to be little nicer, little bit more premium... ohh I know I will get Lexus ES then". So ES does not exist as it's own product, it is more of a top trim option for Toyota Avalon/Camry and it is only possible in US, because Toyota has such a large market there. When they sell million Avalon/Camry, then it is not a stretch so sell 40,000 in a top trim level known as Lexus ES. But as stand alone model in UK the ES doesn't really makes sense... unless it is very cheap to the point it is no brainer, but it isn't. And if it would be, then again it would compete with cheaper cars at lower segment and not BMW 5-Series.
  • Basically, you (and some other ES owners) are making case for following argument - "why buy 5-Series if Ford Mondeo would do?!". And this is decades old argument and there were times when few dozen models have tried to make this case. This is not choice between two competitors in luxury saloon segment, it is choice between paying extra for luxury saloon or saving money and getting economy saloon. And this is fine argument, I have no issue with it, just don't fool yourself that you got BMW competitor because it has Lexus badge on it.
• "Lexus used to be good now bad, so that is why it is worse than BMW" - I don't think I am saying that, this would be wrong attribution. I said they used to make cars I like, and they still making them, but they are not selling them in UK. As well there is whole different discussion about rebadging and that is definitely getting worse - ES, CT, UX and to top it all off LBX is not great trend, but Lexus still makes some good cars just does not sell them here. I guess in very narrow sense it could be argued that specifically in ES case it is true, but just because it replaced GS, which was superior design, but I am not even making that argument right now. I consider that this was marketing mistake to call it GS replacement, rather than bad engineering decision. 
  • Cannot comment on your specific experience... I know BMW had introduced electric steering at some point and that may have something to do with it, but still I would take RWD BMW any day over anything FWD. Steering feel is just one of many things that matters in handling.
  • Same thing here, steering feel is just tiny part of what makes car handle, Mazda 6 still going understeer on the limit, besides sounds like reinventing the wheel. We all know what works, we all know that RWD provides certain preferable handling characteristics, so why overcomplicate it by trying to overengineer wrong wheel drive to feel a little bit like RWD? Just put the shaft going to rear wheel - sorted!
  • Confident steering is not the same as good handling... As well confident steering at what? 30MPH in traffic? And I mean - that is fine, not everyone will be trashing their large saloons on the twisty roads, but some might. So you basically arbitrarily lowering threshold based on your personal needs - but there are people who want more from their cars. Perhaps that is why German cars still have appeal for some buyers?
  • Yes indeed - but it is kind of different thing. BMW does not sell rebadge Hyundai, sure they don't make new BMW as they used to make them, now there are plastic parts inside of engine that fail after 60-80k miles. And that is bad, but they making cheaper BMWs, not badging cheaper cars as BMWs. So to have like for like comparison - IS mk3 was noticeably cheaper built than previous IS mk2, this is sort of thing we are talking about, but IS mk3 was not suddenly Toyota Avensis badged as Lexus, it was still a Lexus. Lexus GS was a Lexus, it's replacement is Toyota. That is different.

Finally, we end-up with some century old grievances which has no relevance and conspiracy theories... This is not battle for Britain (and if it would then ze-Germans would have won it)! Let's just face it - British car industry is non-existent, British own doing! Now every car company (many of whom were pioneers in many ways and historically significant) are now owned by anyone, but not British... and it is kind of sad. But does that make BMW 5-Series worse car, or motoring press inherently dishonest?! No - I don't think so. For me it seems the German makers just understands the market better, offers more competitive and more appealing products, sets and maintains trends (for decades) and therefore achieves better sales results in certain segments. Sport and Luxury saloons/coupes is one of those segments where they dominate. Lexus and many other makers tried times and times again to get into these segments, failed and moved on... Lexus moved onto SUVs where they are doing much more favourably... but it is not Germans fault that Lexus can't offer competitive and appealing saloon... it is Lexus own fault.

[Dippo]

18 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Last time I checked BMW 530e is as well plug-in hybrid, lower tax, ULEZ and congestion charge exempt and has 0-60 in 5.1s ,as well it is RWD and rather fun to drive if you wanted to?!

I've just checked, and the 530e is not exempt from the congestion charge. (I looked up a used example on the BMW Approved site, and put the reg number into the TfL website.) 

[rayaans]

42 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Before I begin - I just wanted to say I do appreciated your formatted and structured response and that is nice, much better than "because you don't own it you suck" attitude. 

The question was specifically - "why Lexus ES did not catch on in UK", OP suggested that maybe pricing it lower has made the car look as inferior in public eye, I don't believe it is the price, but what is very clear is that we are talking about UK. What is happening in US, for the sake of this discussion may as well be another planet with different laws of physics. Different preferences, brand perception, pricing, fuel prices, roads... everything is different about US. The Lexus NX is considered small SUV there, over here it is considered "Large Luxury" SUV and we not even scratching surface here, the reasons why certain cars sells in US and does not sell here cannot be more different. Just a quick glance BMW 5-Series costs £47,000 in US and Lexus ES costs £33,000, that is 28% cheaper in well established market (and that is AWD model, although it is as well compared to 530i). So if we apply same logic in UK, then ES should start at ~£36,800, but that is kind of futile exercise because I don't believe it is the price that matters here.

• Is ES worse than 5-Series ONLY because it is FWD vs. RWD? No and I never said that. RWD in European luxury saloon market is what gives the car certain status, maybe it is cultural thing, maybe it is because Europeans expects their large saloons to "handle", yet the same is not necessary true in US... there are many reasons. I just state historic precedence of all luxury saloons being either RWD or AWD, and all brands that tried to get into that sector with FWD cars failing. But that is just one of many reasons... 
  • Yes US is established market for ES specifically where the model was offered since 1990. So yes ES there will have "easier ride" and it is enough just to do facelift/cosmetic update to stay competitive. UK/Europe is new market and it is much harder to enter, marketing has to be right etc. and this is where I think Lexus messed-up, positioned themselves wrong, marketed it wrong, against wrong competitors and expected to Europeans automatically accept it as equal. BMW spent 40+ years developing this segment, obviously any new brands will struggle. Lexus even failed with GS which was in all ways superior product to ES, how the ES suppose to achieve anything?! 
  • Now if you have done the research then this would have prevented this embarrassing moment... You see - yes ES in US has AWD. And even myself I would not mind ~10 years old ES 350 AWD. Although current 350 seems to be only FWD and one has get 250 for AWD... little bit weird decision considering AWD would be more beneficial for 350... but that is Lexus for ya!
  • So you right - laws of physics works the same there, except ES offers both FWD and AWD in US and that makes a different.  Besides they didn't even offered hybrid at all until 2017, so majority of ES sales in US are driven by ES350/250, even to this day. 
  • When you say Lexus ES sells "many units" you wrongly assume it is same ES300h as in UK that does... NO! It is model as a whole and ES300h sales are quite weak worldwide. 
• Is BMW priced like-for-like is more Luxurious than Lexus ES... No and I have not said that either - I would argue that 5-Series is more Luxurious than ES... period. They are not in the same segment at all and that is what Lexus failed to understand - just making car of the same size and putting "luxury" badge on it doesn't make it equal to 5-Series... it is more subtle. 
  • First of all, you can't price them like for like because BMW is much more expensive, but it is as well fundamentally more Luxurious, and I mean it literally down to the platform it is built on and design choices that badge change cannot achieve. So the comparison here is really - is BMW 5-Series more luxurious than Toyota Avalon... answer to which is - obviously it is more luxurious. Toyota Avalon is more mass market economy saloon, BMW is luxury saloon, you paying premium to get BMW, but Toyota is probably better value... so ES is better value, but it is not competitor to 5-Series, it is different class car in different market niche. Simply said - you get lower class car for less money. And yes sorry... I am basically saying ES just cheapens Lexus brand... For Toyota that is fine - they can market Avalon/Camry as competitor to Mazda 6 or to VW Arteon without cheapening themselves. Lexus does cheapen itself when they go after BMW, get's bounced and has to admit they really sitting at "losers" table with Mazda and VW after failing to challenge "the boss".  The way to establish yourself in this very competitive and traditional market brand has to offer "better for more", not "less for cheaper", such proposal does not attract buyers looking for Luxury, it works in economy cars market, but not in Luxury cars market. And am sure this is where OP was coming from - "perhaps if ES would be priced higher it would be better"... yes, but ONLY if they actually offer substantially more and better and Toyota Avalon does not offer neither more, nor better, not even with Lexus badge and 10 extra kg of sound deadening on it.
  • And I know it all sounds really "anti-Lexus", but it is not. Problem is that people arguing this case wrong and make wrong comparisons. ES represents nicer and more luxurious Toyota Avalon, not a competitor for 5-Series... So it makes sense in US for somebody who says "I kind of want Toyota Avalon, sort of reliable mile muncher, without much sportiness, but large enough to sit 4 people comfortably, but I am kind off more upper class, so I want it to be little nicer, little bit more premium... ohh I know I will get Lexus ES then". So ES does not exist as it's own product, it is more of a top trim option for Toyota Avalon/Camry and it is only possible in US, because Toyota has such a large market there. When they sell million Avalon/Camry, then it is not a stretch so sell 40,000 in a top trim level known as Lexus ES. But as stand alone model in UK the ES doesn't really makes sense... unless it is very cheap to the point it is no brainer, but it isn't. And if it would be, then again it would compete with cheaper cars at lower segment and not BMW 5-Series.
  • Basically, you (and some other ES owners) are making case for following argument - "why buy 5-Series if Ford Mondeo would do?!". And this is decades old argument and there were times when few dozen models have tried to make this case. This is not choice between two competitors in luxury saloon segment, it is choice between paying extra for luxury saloon or saving money and getting economy saloon. And this is fine argument, I have no issue with it, just don't fool yourself that you got BMW competitor because it has Lexus badge on it.
• "Lexus used to be good now bad, so that is why it is worse than BMW" - I don't think I am saying that, this would be wrong attribution. I said they used to make cars I like, and they still making them, but they are not selling them in UK. As well there is whole different discussion about rebadging and that is definitely getting worse - ES, CT, UX and to top it all off LBX is not great trend, but Lexus still makes some good cars just does not sell them here. I guess in very narrow sense it could be argued that specifically in ES case it is true, but just because it replaced GS, which was superior design, but I am not even making that argument right now. I consider that this was marketing mistake to call it GS replacement, rather than bad engineering decision. 
  • Cannot comment on your specific experience... I know BMW had introduced electric steering at some point and that may have something to do with it, but still I would take RWD BMW any day over anything FWD. Steering feel is just one of many things that matters in handling.
  • Same thing here, steering feel is just tiny part of what makes car handle, Mazda 6 still going understeer on the limit, besides sounds like reinventing the wheel. We all know what works, we all know that RWD provides certain preferable handling characteristics, so why overcomplicate it by trying to overengineer wrong wheel drive to feel a little bit like RWD? Just put the shaft going to rear wheel - sorted!
  • Confident steering is not the same as good handling... As well confident steering at what? 30MPH in traffic? And I mean - that is fine, not everyone will be trashing their large saloons on the twisty roads, but some might. So you basically arbitrarily lowering threshold based on your personal needs - but there are people who want more from their cars. Perhaps that is why German cars still have appeal for some buyers?
  • Yes indeed - but it is kind of different thing. BMW does not sell rebadge Hyundai, sure they don't make new BMW as they used to make them, now there are plastic parts inside of engine that fail after 60-80k miles. And that is bad, but they making cheaper BMWs, not badging cheaper cars as BMWs. So to have like for like comparison - IS mk3 was noticeably cheaper built than previous IS mk2, this is sort of thing we are talking about, but IS mk3 was not suddenly Toyota Avensis badged as Lexus, it was still a Lexus. Lexus GS was a Lexus, it's replacement is Toyota. That is different.

Finally, we end-up with some century old grievances which has no relevance and conspiracy theories... This is not battle for Britain (and if it would then ze-Germans would have won it)! Let's just face it - British car industry is non-existent, British own doing! Now every car company (many of whom were pioneers in many ways and historically significant) are now owned by anyone, but not British... and it is kind of sad. But does that make BMW 5-Series worse car, or motoring press inherently dishonest?! No - I don't think so. For me it seems the German makers just understands the market better, offers more competitive and more appealing products, sets and maintains trends (for decades) and therefore achieves better sales results in certain segments. Sport and Luxury saloons/coupes is one of those segments where they dominate. Lexus and many other makers tried times and times again to get into these segments, failed and moved on... Lexus moved onto SUVs where they are doing much more favourably... but it is not Germans fault that Lexus can't offer competitive and appealing saloon... it is Lexus own fault.

Linas...

When are you going to learn that no one wants to read through pages of your drivel and couldn't care less what you think.

You're the only person who comes on this forum to write essays on slagging off Lexus vehicles and making comparisons without actually owning or driving them.

Your opinions are of your own, and my opinions are my own, hence why I am making it clear that your opinions are rubbish, absolute hogwash and a load of complete and utter nonsense the majority of the time with no real basis to them apart from copy and pasting car reviews.

I think it's genuinely time you give up this forum and go find yourself a BMW, join the BMW forums, at which point you may take comfort in the fact the people on there might be more interested in the appendage measuring contest you seem to engage in.

[Linas.P]

13 minutes ago, Dippo said:

I've just checked, and the 530e is not exempt from the congestion charge. (I looked up a used example on the BMW Approved site, and put the reg number into the TfL website.) 

Not sure, because the conditions keeps changing and as you know not for the better.

The last time I have checked it was and at least at some point vehicles that emitted less than 75g/Co2 were exempt, BMW 530e emits 49g/Co2... on paper, so should be exempt. Either they changed this exemption, or certain 530e models emit more than 75g. 

5 minutes ago, rayaans said:

Linas...

When are you going to learn that no one wants to read through pages of your drivel and couldn't care less what you think.

You're the only person who comes on this forum to write essays on slagging off Lexus vehicles and making comparisons without actually owning or driving them.

Your opinions are of your own, and my opinions are my own, hence why I am making it clear that your opinions are rubbish, absolute hogwash and a load of complete and utter nonsense the majority of the time with no real basis to them apart from copy and pasting car reviews.

I think it's genuinely time you give up this forum and go find yourself a BMW, join the BMW forums, at which point you may take comfort in the fact the people on there might be more interested in the appendage measuring contest you seem to engage in.

ditto... just for a record, I do own Lexus and I could not care less what you think, nor you can tell me what to do. So get lost!

If you have such a big issue with people who have different opinion, then LOC has solution for you - there is ignore function. 

I use it and it works very well... now contrary to what you said, I find some of you comments useful... sometimes, but if that is not mutual then I honestly not going to lose any sleep over it. And it sounds kind of childish... grown-up man complaining on the forum that comment is too long. Just don't read it!

 

[Steven C]

11 minutes ago, Dippo said:

19 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Last time I checked BMW 530e is as well plug-in hybrid, lower tax, ULEZ and congestion charge exempt and has 0-60 in 5.1s ,as well it is RWD and rather fun to drive if you wanted to?!

I've just checked, and the 530e is not exempt from the congestion charge. (I looked up a used example on the BMW Approved site, and put the reg number into the TfL website

You're right the 530e is not exempt from the congestion charge and never has been. It is ULEZ free only. But remember Linas.P is an expert.

[Linas.P]

1 minute ago, Steven C said:

You're right the 530e is not exempt from the congestion charge and never has been. It is ULEZ free only. But remember Linas.P is an expert.

ohhh... what a hero we have here! Now you going to cling on one single point (from literally 100s I made) where I may have been wrong to prove your point!

Great - I concede, you proven one of my points wrong... 99 to go! 

I even give you a little treat, throw you "a bone" let's say... it doesn't go 0-60 in 5.1s either... it is actually 5.9s! I can hear a little Toyota ES owner gremlin screaming "hang and quarter!"

We again getting into fallacies territory - faulty generalisation types to be specific. So you now implying that I am always wrong, because I was wrong in one (or two) cases. And as well you cherry-picking... you can't defeat my argument as a whole, so you picked on what little wrong there is and you pretend to be victorious! Well done to you!

Isn't that a little bit lazy? 

[Linas.P]

...ohhh and you not even right on what little "you have on me".

Yes 530e was never EXEMPT, but until October 2021 it was eligible for CVD

https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transparency/freedom-of-information/foi-request-detail?referenceId=FOI-0573-2021

So it was not exempt per-say, but it received 100% discount as long as you had registered and paid £10 annual fee.

In short whenever you call it exempt or if you say that you get 100% discount for £10 per year, that is semantics at best - point is, for long time plug-in hybrids didn't need to pay congestion charge... that has changed in 2021. Fine! But that for long time was still major benefit of plug-in hybrid versus having "self-charging" hybrid. 

[Steven C]

3 hours ago, Linas.P said:

ohhh... what a hero we have here! Now you going to cling on one single point (from literally 100s I made) where I may have been wrong to prove your point!

Great - I concede, you proven one of my points wrong... 99 to go! 

I even give you a little treat, throw you "a bone" let's say... it doesn't go 0-60 in 5.1s either... it is actually 5.9s! I can hear a little Toyota ES owner gremlin screaming "hang and quarter!"

We again getting into fallacies territory - faulty generalisation types to be specific. So you now implying that I am always wrong, because I was wrong in one (or two) cases. And as well you cherry-picking... you can't defeat my argument as a whole, so you picked on what little wrong there is and you pretend to be victorious! Well done to you!

Isn't that a little bit lazy? 

I have come to conclusion you have a problem somewhere as you rantings on here are not normal. You seem so desperate to be right about everything. I really can't be bothered to discuss anything with you. Carry on believing the rubbish you spout.

[GMB]

Hi everyone ( back from exile )

This forum site is just a simple place of amusement to express one's opinions and then look at the comments from readers good and bad.

It must not be be taken seriously as there are some right doughnuts on here. I know, I am one of them.

Give Linas a break. I bet he's a nice person really. I enjoy reading some of the more extreme comments on here and I forgive Linas for hating my lovely Is200t which is also an eccentric thing.

Does anyone else get a picture in their mind of what any commentator looks like or how old or how eccentric they may be.

I know I certainly do.

 

 

[Linas.P]

You either have something contrary to say, or don't argue. You can't be right by just refusing to talk...

And look I get your point - you just want to be in lovely community where everyone compliments each other in the bubble of dreams and fantasies and not injure your brain by thinking about anything more difficult, or objective, or god forbid not positive. There are actually quite a few people like that here - comes polishes their car, post pictures, collects few likes and never gets into any discussion about anything... But then don't start the argument if you are not prepared to defend you position. And we don't need to agree about anything, that is fine as well, however when you say that somebody is wrong it would be common courtesy to say why as well.

Bye and have a good day!