Is the ES too cheap

[HotSpur-Lexus]

Checking on howmanyleft - i see there are just over 4000 on the roads in the UK, compared to execs from its rivals that is quite a small number.

I have had countless Mercedes and BMW's both of which are fantastic, but I have also been so impressed with the Lexus and wonder why there has been relatively little take up...I think could price be an issue, if the starting price was say £50 - 60K and in and around the offerings of MB and BMW...would it be more successful, I mean do some potential buyers discount it because it seems cheap and thus imagine its a lower class (in terms of family, i.e. more C or 3 Series) or think of it as not as premium in terms of build quality?

Just baffled as to why there aren't more on the roads - I really have grown quite fond of my ES...

[george72]

Interesting thread. I agree that the es300h represents fantastic value for money compared to German counterparts but the reality is people just don't want to buy saloons anymore. They are considered old fashioned and seriously uncool. 

A real shame but they suit my purpose for now but my next car wil be an suv purely from a practical point of view. 

[Mincey]

It's because it doesn't have an Audi/BMW/Mercedes badge. Was it Clarkson who said that if you put one of those badges on a plate of sick, they would fly out of the shop?

[cdmaskell]

And it’s not a company car and common, so be it!

[e-yes]

Some of it I guess has to do with the motoring press as well. With pretty much all UK motoring brands being German (or European conglomerate) owned the press has to pander to those brands. There is a very popular reviewer on YouTube who reviewed cars from all the big three Germans and Lexus ES was included in that round up and according to that one reviewer .. the Lexus was the worst of them.

I have personally owned Audi and BMW (Audi from brand new) and I am at least one single data point that does not agree with that outcome. The ES when I considered buying was priced in the BMW 3-series segment but had the space/comfort in the 5-series class.

Compare U.K. with North America though and the situation flips (in my opinion) towards the right direction. The German cars over there are considered mostly lease-only products. If someone has disposable write-off eligible income they go and lease a German brand car.

The fleet market in North America is majorly occupied by other Asian brands or budget American brands as well. I was able to rent a VW at one occasion somehow as I had a Hertz Emerald membership provided by my employer and I walked out of SFO arrivals and completely randomly this VW Jetta was the first car on the lot and I was in a rush. Every other time the rental was a Nissan or a Ford.

Also, Lexus are not doing themselves a favour by marketing the ES (and pretty much all hybrids) as e-CVT. The press especially totally unfairly rags on the hybrid drive system. The ES makes less noise than the chain-rattley BMW 4-cylinder I had. Also, try to kick down a Volvo V90 (lowest powered petrol variant was the one I test drove) and it makes a proper racket... and doesn't go very fast too. The Audi A6 I had was on the awful S-Line suspension and not only the engine was droney, the tire noise was horrendous !

Lexus should simply take away that term e-CVT from their marketing materials and start using the proper term Planetary Power Split Device.

But I think recently, newer Lexus products are getting favourable reviews from the press. But sadly, the newer products are quite expensive (The NX and the RX)

The one reviewer I believe is quite a fair reviewer on YouTube (savagegeese) has reviewed the new products and has concluded that the ES is a far better Lexus than then new NX and RX are.

--E

 

[e-yes]

😓 Yet another one - "holds the revs quite high" ! 

The revs are held high because they can be held high as that is what is needed to increase speed.

What does the conventional gearbox do after the gear is changed ? Importantly, what does the conventional gearbox do when peak RPM is achieved... if it is automatic then it wastes fuel by disengaging the wheels from the engine during the moment it is switching the gear (the point where one notices from the engine sound that the RPM is reduced sharply. And then it (the ECU ie) tries to bring the RPM back up again to the one being demanded by the throttle load. With a manual gearbox an untrained driver can lug the engine to stall point trying to avoid bringing the RPM up... or act on instinct and select the right ratio and then... bring the RPM up.

Conversely, what does the CVT setup do once the driver backs off the throttle once the desired speed is achieved. It brings the engine to lower RPMs as the load is no longer present.

--E

[Cs150]

ES is a bargain but only due to the massive discounts that are available if you do your due diligence. Upon searching for a new car in late 2021 I was going to buy a gen 4 Prius. I know it gets stick for being boring but was quite happy with 120bhp, actually quite like the shape and enjoy being underestimated in life and was additionally quite happy with the perceived poor image. Safe in the knowledge it would do mega miles without serious issues.

Focus changed to the ES after discovering it would cost a mere £5k more than a new Prius! It is much more car for the money! Whilst the ES has silly short comings such as rear seats that do not fold flat, lack of spare wheel on UK versions plus some evidence of outright poor build quality such as some corrosion on under bonnet items it is still good value.

[Steven C]

I'm baffled as to why there are not more ES's on the road. It must be one of Lexus's best kept secret. You seldom see them promote it other than maybe FB. The main problem in my area is there are no local dealers. For me it's either Reading or Milton Keynes both of which are nowhere near Oxford. The one I wanted came from Cheltenham. MK will be the chosen service option but in this area I never see a Lexus ES and very few SUV's. Having had Merc's for years this is my first venture with a Lexus and I am very pleased with it so far. Bargain price for a lot of car.

[F.A.]

I think it’s more to do with perceived brand image ( as mentioned above ) and also the fact that the ES is only available with one engine. People like choice and if a 2.5l 4 pot FWD  hybrid is not the drive train you are looking for, then you are going to look elsewhere. Despite being a Lexus fanboy for many years, I wouldn’t consider one for this reason. 
 

[HotSpur-Lexus]

I get that its 2.5 4cl hybrid and FWD - but as a daily its really almost perfect 

But then again, I do have the luxury of other cars in my garage including a full sized SUV, a sports roadster, and a super saloon if the mood takes me...

[Shahpor]

16 minutes ago, HotSpur-Lexus said:

 a sports roadster, and a super saloon if the mood takes me...

Do tell 🙂

[HotSpur-Lexus]

Daily ES300H

Sunny Days Mercedes SL

Shopping and Vacations BMW X5

Garage Queen and when one needs a bit of speed BMW M5

[Shahpor]

Don't mean to derail this thread, but pics and info on the SL and M5 would be welcome 🙂

[HotSpur-Lexus]

SL350, R230, 2004, 60K miles

M5, F90, 2019, 8K miles

 

 

[Shahpor]

Lovely looking cars you got there.

Excuse the obvious questions, but why the ES and M5?  If I was ever in the fortunate position to own an M5, it would most likely be my daily.  Or do you do a lot of miles?  If so, I can see the logic of it.

[Linas.P]

Sorry to enter your party... but isn't it strange that only ES owners thinks it is good value? And this is not wrong in the ES owners perspective - simply said you had certain criteria for the car, certain things which were important for you and ES matched that well and it works very well, hence you bought it. So you just can't understand or appreciate why other people don't like it, because it seems to work well for you. Yet if you want to answer the question why it failed in the market you need to look from the perspective of why it does NOT work for other people.

The perspective on the market is different - at this level people want more power, RWD, actually more luxurious cars, some other options Lexus does not offer... ES is literally copy paste Avalon, I drove both and they feel like same car, Avalon is great, but it is not E-Class and not 5-Series and not GS. To anyone comparing it to BMW or MB or even upgrading from GS it just doesn't make sense. 

Too cheap?! Definitely not! Too expensive - to be honest it isn't either... Problem is brand image and massive marketing gaffe saying "it is BMW 5-Series" competitor and every single review has absolutely demolished it, to be fair you don't even need review, just sit in 5-Series and ES and it is obvious right away - it stands no chance against BMW 5-Series. They thought they could put Lexus badge on Avalon and say it is BMW 5-Series competitor - market looked at it and said "sorry... nope". So Lexus picked wrong battles, wrong marketing and lost. Lexus as a brand represent affordable premium car and slots just below BMW/MB (I know shocker, people do not know better, but that is what it is)... they should have built niche for ES separate from 5-Series, perhaps go after VW Arteon buyers (not that Arteon is massive sales success) and market it as it's own thing. Which to be honest either way I look at it would be losing battle - saloons are on decline anyway, so anyone buying one will be looking for classic premium saloon values e.g. quintessential BMW 5-Series copy, the thing GS tried to be and failed (although for different reasons).

Second point - power and FWD. I know this was discussed million times and probably will be discussed million more times. Some say - it does not matter, but market consistently said otherwise. Lexus is not the first brand that tried and failed with FWD model in premium saloon space. Jaguar X-type was failure, in my opinion predominately because it was Mondeo FWD platform, Alfa Romeo tried and failed for decades, all French large saloons failed, Honda/Acura failed. Simply said for exec. saloon segment RWD is must, that is what differentiates the leaders and wannabees. I know Audi is exception to this rule, but that is because of their Quattro line and they were always that sort of AWD option and just sneak FWD cars on the perception of them being more premium than they are. Then we come to power - and obviously Lexus pulled their classical single engine option here. I know it sound counter-intuitive, because if we look at the stats majority of BMW and MBs will be E220d, 520i and so on... but that is not the point. Point is that they offer the option, that attracts the customer, that giver right brand perception, but then customers decides that it makes more financial sense to go with 520i... but make no mistake - they only came to BMW dealership in the first place because BMW offers 540i and M5, and they 100% gone for 520i M-Sport with badge delete, so now all their neighbours thinks they driving "fast BMW". And by the way 520i still performs despite it's 184HP and small engine. Lexus has fallen on the same issue over and over again - they think that by just offering the model which ultimately will sell most units they will sell the same amount of cars without the need of homologating 20 engines... NO! They have to offer all engines from 1.8L hybrid to 5L V8 and then let customers make that decision.

Strangely enough I think new IS would have done quite well in the market, maybe even helped ES along. If they came here with their American line-up and marketing - IS300 (220t), 300h, 350 and 500 and for 10% less than BMW, it probably would have worked. So we talking about IS300 and 300h starting at ~£35,000. The point is - you have to have models that brings the customers to the dealership, what they ultimately buy does not matter, but they are required to build brand perception. Yes Lexus have some of them - LC and LS are those models, but they fail because LS and LC are out of reach for majority of buyers. Same story with LFA, so called "halo" cars, the success of "halo" car is based on it being both very desirable, but as well realistically affordable. Other brands have decades of building this and Lexus just consistently failed at that... BMW M-Series is perfect example, not everyone can afford M5, but it is not ridiculously expensive where people wouldn't even try and sure they can't get the latest one, but they can get previous model or one before. That bring their interest to the brand as a whole and that is how they end-up with BMW 520i, because they realise that instead of buying 15 years old M5, they can get brand new 520i on monthly payments.

[george72]

Makes sense linas. As much I like my es300h it is not a patch on my old 530d interms drive, comfort and fit and finish. And agree there is no equivalence with a 5 series 

[F.A.]

7 hours ago, HotSpur-Lexus said:

I get that its 2.5 4cl hybrid and FWD - but as a daily its really almost perfect 

But then again, I do have the luxury of other cars in my garage including a full sized SUV, a sports roadster, and a super saloon if the mood takes me...

All very subjective really. 
 

Fine if you are cruising up and down the motorway but at 5m + in length, I don’t think the ES lends itself well to daily duties for my commute around Bristol. Parking would be a nightmare. 
My current daily is an MG4 Trophy. More than fast enough to keep up with the traffic, handles well enough, costs £6.40 to charge up which will give 230 miles and BIK is almost irrelevant. Yes it doesn’t have a premium badge and I am fully aware that EV’s are not for everyone, but it suits my circumstances more than an ES.

 

On another note, lovely fleet of cars you have at your disposal OP

 

 

 

 

[Ala Larj]

Buying anything is subjective or we wouldn’t have choice. My wife is a dyson fan but I think the shark vacuum cleaner is better especially when taking price into consideration. 
 

I personally think the ES is overpriced. Am not sure what it is competing with. As a large saloon it is obviously in the same market as e class or 5 series but interior quality appears to be comparable to the class below. 
 

I tinkered with replacing my GS with an ES and took a takumi model for an extended test drive and came away disappointed. As a replacement for an IS it would probably be a good choice with regards to interior quality but compared to my GS there were too many cheap materials which meant it felt like a downgrade to me. My nine year old GS still feels new inside apart from some minor creasing on the outside drivers seat bolster. The GS still feels special with no rattling or any other signs of wear. It is more luxurious and comfortable than the ES and as mine is a premier it has all the tech I need and can be driven relaxingly or sportily in sport + mode. 
 

Obviously, and maybe objectively, the ES has a better infotainment system but that doesn’t bother me. In fact I have the screen off most of the time. For such a big and supposedly luxury car the ES just doesn’t seem to cut the mustard.

The GS was never a big seller so I’m not surprised that Lexus didn’t replace it. To replace the IS and GS with the ES was a mistake. I think they should have replaced the IS with a mark 4 as the IS was a relatively good seller. Most people wanting to replace their IS mark 3 would find the ES to big. 
 

I have decided to keep my GS as I cannot find anything that feels so comfortable and special. 
 

And that’s my subjective opinion!

[Bounce75]

I have an Is300h & wouldn't move to an ES, too big.

[Initial P]

I still see a lot more of these around (ES) compared to any GS from any year.

I had a look at one in the showroom at Hatfield last week & thought I could live with it interior & looks rise.

Been FWD it would go against some of my engineering beliefs.

[Cs150]

The great thing for me personally about the ES and why it was bought is that it is not rear wheel drive or has the BMW badge. Absolutely fine with it being a plush version of the Avalon with better sound proofing. Whilst it has some silly short comings it is very much a bargain with the discounts offered. The build quality is generally solid unlike some premium German rivals. Some model year BMWs have plastic guides that cause the timing chain to fail at low mileage. In terms of comparison with the GS Hybrid which is a nice car; the ES is far smoother especially at low speed.

[Linas.P]

48 minutes ago, Cs150 said:

The build quality is generally solid unlike some premium German rivals. Some model year BMWs have plastic guides that cause the timing chain to fail at low mileage. In terms of comparison with the GS Hybrid which is a nice car; the ES is far smoother especially at low speed.

If you would try to answer the question of why people not buying it, then you would realise that majority of buyers does not care about plastic guides (and much more critical engine parts!), what they care more is about interior quality, because that is what they can see, touch and feel. BMW will still come with 5-years/60k miles warranty and majority of them will survive that much.

Now if you argue - "but after 5 years you have major engine problem, so mechanical reliability is more important than cosmetic thing in interior", then you would be RIGHT... yet it is still irrelevant. Because original owner who bought the car new and who is the only person BMW cares about will have driven the car, enjoyed the cars, sold the car and long forgotten about it. So two things here - used car market is irrelevant, used car reliability is irrelevant for manufacturers, they make the cars that lasts they lease and that satisfies 99% of owners.

That is why BWM 5-Series is and will be market leader in this segment for foreseeable future. 

I do not understand your argument about being "not RWD and not German"... sound like a principle for me and those are retally rational "I don't want German cars and if German cars are RWD, then I will make sure to not have RWD", well okey - more power to you, but market thinks differently. The end result ES is sales failure as I have always predicted it to be and BMW still sells more BMW 5s than Lexus sells cars altogether. 

[Cs150]

7 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Sound like a principle for me and those are retally rational "I don't want German cars and if German cars are RWD, then I will make sure to not have RWD", well okey - more power to you, but market thinks differently. 

Nothing against German cars but simply a personal dislike of the BMW attitude on the roads that tends to be evidenced most days. A badge that often is seen in the rear view mirror a few feet from the rear bumper. A badge that often symbols poor levels of consideration and driving ability based on frequent observed events. Also speaks volumes that many buyers on a wider subject do not care about the longer term durability. Society is certainly not as critically thinking or frugal compared to previous generations...

[Linas.P]

15 minutes ago, Cs150 said:

Nothing against German cars but simply a personal dislike of the BMW attitude on the roads that tends to be evidenced most days. A badge that often is seen in the rear view mirror a few feet from the rear bumper. A badge that often symbols poor levels of consideration and driving ability based on frequent observed events. Also speaks volumes that many buyers on a wider subject do not care about the longer term durability. Society is certainly not as critically thinking or frugal compared to previous generations...

On first one that is just a myth - I would like to say it has been debunked, but sadly it wasn't. It is such a niche subject that it seems nobody is bothered to study it, so this stereotype remains. It seems to me that people who don't like BMW drivers are either jealous or stuck in the overtaking lane long after they should have moved over. Or perhaps BMWs are just more noticeable compared to grey Vauxhall Insignia or some other boring car stuck on your rear bumper. 

I have done quite a bit of driving and I have not found any brand that consistently attracts poor drivers. I am sure that there are idiots in all cars, BMW included, but I would not say that BMWs are consistently what causes me issues. I have identified one trend - usually people who drive "bad cars" are as well "bad drivers", French cars are good start, but again it is not a brand issue, the issue is that anyone who likes driving and who likes cars are unlikely to choose French car (with very few exceptions) and if somebody has chosen French car, then they likely did it because they are cheap and because they don't care, because they do not like driving and they do not care what they drive. As certain Jeremy Clarkson remarked - "would you like to be operated by surgeon who is not interested in medicine and does not care... probably not (or something along those lines)". And I think he is onto something - person who is not interested in driving and doesn't likes doing it is unlikely to be good driver. And people in French cars are not malicious, just a little bit clueless sometimes, not concentrating, not indicating, not moving over, generally being in the wrong place and at the wrong time... which I find not acceptable for the road, but nothing personal.

On the second subject - that is just rational, it is not lack of critical thinking or frugality, if once leases the car for 3 years, then they don't care what will happen to it after 5. And if we look statistically, then something like 3/4 of new car sales are some form of finance (even more for luxury cars), even remaining 1/4 buyers who buy cars outright not necessarily keep them longer than 5 years. So the customer who buys brand new car and keeps it for 10-years/100,000miles is exceptionally rare. I would assume older folk who maybe get their pension lump sum after retiring would be the only group that does it. As such why would you overpay, or sacrifice something for the car that is overengineered to last much longer than you need it. Why would new car owner overpay for the car just so that third or fifth owner 15 years down the line would benefit from it? Now I am grateful that there are some people like that, because I primarily buy used cars (just because I am more frugal than it would be generally heathy to be), but that is not common and it is becoming increasingly rare.