Lexus to unveil the all-new LBX

[Linas.P]

What you saying is correct - the cars became more complicated and fitted with more and more technology, the very first car with airbags was probably charging premium for it, the first one with sat-nav did (or it was expensive option), same for ABS, same for radar cruise, same for hybrid systems, same for automatic lights etc. etc. So I think we can all agree that all technology is costly at first, then it becomes widespread and it trickles down to lower-end models models. Right?

So if we have pressure of inflation making cars (and especially technology within them) more expensive, we have exactly opposite pressure from technology becoming cheaper and normalised and should in theory make same cars to have more "stuff" yet be cheaper or at least cost the same. 

Make no mistake - technology that went into original Yaris in 1999 was as advanced for the time and as expensive as the technology that goes into brand spanking new Lexus Yaris Cross in 2023. For Toyota it cost exactly the same amount of money to make £35,000 Toyota LBX as back in 1999 it costed to make original Yaris. The only thing that has changes is their profit margins and they want to increase them even further with this little badge engineering. 

Now I agree - that is simplification, the regulatory cost for example has risen significantly, now cars undergo more rigorous testing, the expectations and standards are higher, so the cars cost more to make and it cost more to sell them, but not £10,000 more (that is inflation adjusted Yaris cost £13,644 vs. Yaris Cross cost now). So when I said that back in the day such car would have the cost of ~£16,000-£19,000... that could be adjusted a little bit, but there is no way we end-up with Yaris Cross price of ~£26,000 and certainly not close to £35,000 I predict the LBX to sell for. 

As for competition - I think there is plenty of it and they all are just egregiously priced, like Toyota LBX or for that matter Lexus CH-R (for LBX - BMW X1, Audi Q2, MB GLA... for Yaris Cross - Nissan Juke, many Peugeots, Citroens, Fiat 500X). Car manufacturers are having absolute field day ripping off the increasing ignorant consumers. I have theory as well why consumers are increasingly ignorant, but that is maybe for another time (or another comment if we stay on the topic).

I would end by saying that Lexus DOES NOT NEED cars like CH-R or Yaris Cross in it's line-up, they are too small to really justify making them luxurious and the product will be compromised either way you look at it. You can't make them too luxurious because of small size, you can't make good value because of the brand... so they shouldn't exist if we look at it rationally or logically. Lexus would be okey just selling IS/RC/NX as entry-level luxury saloon, coupe and SUV... and UX/LBX could be just the top of the range trim in Toyota line-up, but again the problem is that Toyota is way to expensive as it is and adding extra trim on top of already overpriced line-up would simply make it look silly as they would effectively end-up in MB/BMW/Audi territory... and nobody in their right mind would choose car called Yaris Cross with Toyota badge on it instead of even most basic C-Class.

[cur666]

Linas.P.......why are you on this forum....what car are you driving?  I enjoyed your car rant...but it's all down to the consumer surely?  You pays your money , makes your choice....I have left a deposit on the LBX...because I want one !

 

[Linas.P]

Because I like my Toyotas to be more Luxurious than BMW/MB without sacrificing reliability, GENUINLY good value and I like them to be RWD. That is what Lexus used to be, that was the point of Lexus... before they completely lost the plot, discontinued any cars I would be interested in and remaining cars are now shameless badge engineered Toyotas with minimal improvements. When I came to own Lexus my choice was between BMW 320d M-Sport manual with basically no options inside or Lexus IS250 F-Sport which was fully loaded with electric seats that were not only heated, but cooled and with memory, not to mention 50 other ways it was better equipped than BMW - FOR THE SAME PRICE! Well obviously that is no brainer, that was the Lexus appeal, you were getting more than in German cars for less money... be it at little bit of stigma of being "just fancy Toyota" and having to explain to everyone it actually isn't a Toyota and shares very little with it... and puts your Beeeeemer to the shame in any measurable way.

Now on top of that I HATE SUVs, so obviously I am not very happy where market is going to at the moment in general, and very very not happy with Lexus in particular because it seems they only do SUVs now, if you go to BMW they have SUVs, but they still have 3-Series, 4-Series, 5-series, even 2-series... so you have a "choice". That said RX and NX are great LEXUS SUVs that are genuine attempts into making Lexus, even if they share a lot of Toyota parts. RX to be honest doesn't really have equivalent in Toyota range now (used to be Harrier, but now harrier is more of variant of RAV4, whereas RX despite sharing platform with quite a few models is kind of it's own thing) and despite being based on RAV4, the NX was so extensively upgraded that it feels like totally different car. Although, I guess RAV4 itself is quite good SUV so there was solid base to build on. Anyway, I hate SUVs, but if somebody wants recommendation for SUV then NX and RX are solid choices. 

Then we come to stupid concept of Crossover... sort of "raised-hatchback". As you may guess if I already hate SUVs, then Crossovers stands no chance - they are just plainly stupid in my opinion. SUV itself is crossover between true 4x4 off-roader and MPV, so crossover of crossover is real travesty. 

Now sure - it is your money, you buy whatever you like, that is your right and I have no issue with that. But that won't change my option about it, not it will change the fact the thing is badge engineered Toyota which is double-overpriced. Again - well done to Toyota marketing team to market the product so well that people overpay money for it and feels like "it is their choice". Overall, it is kind of funny when they say "consumers wants more SUVs we just fulfilling the demand", yeah SURE... because if I don't want SUV I have plenty of choice RIGHT?! The reality is that manufacturers realised that making same car bigger, taller and more bulbous cost nothing extra, but they can charge more for it. SUVs thus are higher margin products, so all manufacturers jumped on the train to push as many SUVs to the market as they can instead of focusing on traditional models. Obviously, this is just a fashion trend and fashion trends comes and goes, there were years of Estate cars, there were years of Coupes, of Hatchbacks, of SUVs, now we onto Crossovers... I hope this stupid fashion won't stick, but it might, because of other complexities related with market and consumer being what consumer is - ignorant and uneducated. Anyway, it is just funny how people fall for this "illusion of choice" trope. 

Have you tried driving Avalon or even Camry? I presume you tried driving C-HR? Can you explain me then why Lexus ES and UX exist? Because they are absolutely identical, there is no spin on it, there is no special Lexus recipe how to make Toyota more luxurious, it is just the same car with different badge, slightly different shape buttons on steering wheel, actually worse infotainment and it costs more money. What if I want my traditional coupe/saloon instead of 3-series? What is my choice now? FWD ES? To be honest if Lexus have kept IS, RC and GS I would have no problem with flood of SUVs and stupid Crossovers, brands will try to expand their market reach and I appreciate that... but that is not the case with Lexus... they have simply abandoned their long term clients to expand in more profitable SUV market, because it turns out profit margins on coupes and saloons were too low for them to bother.

I mean there is whole different problem of Toyota moving up-market and Lexus moving down-market and how that makes Lexus kind of a little bit of a joke... Again big topic - but oversimplification was that Toyota was economy car company (remember them being compared to "white goods"?), soulless disposable tools... they launched Lexus as Premium/Luxury brand to compete with MB primarily. Problem is that now the Toyota moved so much upmarket that things like Avalon could compete with say Audi A6 like for like, maybe not exactly BMW 5-Series or MB E-Class, but lower end FWD Audi for sure, RAV4 is outright better than X3. Yet at the same time, Lexus moving down-market, it used to be real pain for MB when LS launched, because it offered more than S-Class for less money, that is the point of Lexus - offering amazing value Luxury... BUT now Toyota offers Luxury... why does Lexus needs to exist at all?! The issue with all that - Lexus used to be cheaper than equivalent German competitor, but now Toyota costs just as much, so where Lexus has to go? They can't sell for significantly more than BMW or MB, but they can't cost less than Toyota either? Solution would be to slap Toyota back down where it belongs, competing with Peugeots and similar trash, offering bland, cheap but reliable cars and that would leave Lexus some breathing room to fit the model in price range somewhere between BMW and Toyota, but offering more than BMW. But in all fairness Toyota is probably more recognised brand nowadays anyway, so why sabotage something that is recognised to promote some niche failed "luxury" brand. So Lexus lost it basically, it became irrelevant... and post current gen LC and LS I really don't see the point of their existence. It will basically going to become top trim level for Toyota SUVs and Crossovers. In suture Toyota trim levels probably will look like this "Icon>Design>Excel>GR>Lexus".

[Shahpor]

Linas, I think calling these Lexus cars rebadged Toyota's is a little harsh.  Can't comment on this new LBX yet, but a significant proportion of the ES is Lexus specific and not based on a Toyota model.  Now, as a ex-GS owner, my belief is the ES is a downgrade, but I certainly think it is superior to a Camry.

As for the cost, it is the general trend of the whole motoring sector now, so not something Toyota specific.  Whether it is justified or not is another debate!  For example, the latest Gold Starts at £26.565 and goes up to £44,170!  A £44k Golf?!?

Lastly, as you know, I am not a fan of SUV's either, however, that is mainly down to their overall size rather than height.  In this respect, whilst I still prefer a standard saloon, the fact that the LBX is just taller but no bigger than the old CT makes it much more acceptable.  Having said that, I would still prefer an IS any day of the week.

 

[Linas.P]

1 hour ago, Shahpor said:

Linas, I think calling these Lexus cars rebadged Toyota's is a little harsh.  Can't comment on this new LBX yet, but a significant proportion of the ES is Lexus specific and not based on a Toyota model.  Now, as a ex-GS owner, my belief is the ES is a downgrade, but I certainly think it is superior to a Camry.

It depends on perspective and there are several perspectives available - whenever I believe Lexus is rebadged Toyota, whenever general public believes it is rebadged Toyota, whenever it actually is rebadged Toyota, then further clarification is needed if we talking past, present or future and finally if that is intended to be the case or not.

So when it comes to time perspective, Lexus was not originally rebadged Toyota, if we talking about LS in particular, then it was grounds-up new project and better car then any Toyota before it, well deserving it's own brand. Now many apologist for badge engineering would point out that from beginning Lexus cars were rebadged Toyotas, because Toyota had same cars with their badge, but that is wrong. Those cars were Lexus badged as Toyotas, not Toyotas badged as Lexus. And there is difference - when LS was sold as Celsior that meant you were getting Lexus quality for Toyota price. When Avalon is badged as ES, then it means you getting Toyota for Lexus price. So in first case it is a win and good value, in second case it is very poor value and obvious loss. Now again from that historic perspective Lexus was Lexus (with exception of ES which was always Toyota) until the launch of CT (Toyota Auris), many people back then argued it will cheapen the brand and it did. It didn't have to happen, Lexus could have had CT on offer, but stay premium, but that is in my opinion when the brand took and obvious downwards trend (even thought I was not initially against CT itself). There were positives, next year they launched GS mk4, which remains one of the best Lexus cars ever, but I would say the lack of quality feels in IS mk3 and RC, so CT started sucking out the "premium" part from the bottom, first it affected IS, then RC was mostly based on IS and then finally GS replacement with ES. So in summary Lexus was going up in terms of Luxury from 1989>2011, from 2011>2019 it was going downwards, but still offering some stand out models, and since 2019 it is just outright fashion accessory and badge engineering. Both remaining true Lexus models were introduced before 2019 (current gen LS and LC) and the only models that Lexus realistically maintains are RX and NX. The rest is rebadged Toyota.

Now does public thinks that - yes, but depends on the country, depends on how informed they are... starting from most ignorant, they don't care either way, they don't know nothing about the cars, nor what Lexus is or what's is their relation to Toyota (this is majority), then there are people who are little bit into cars, but still ignorant and they generally look down on Lexus as Toyota puppet brand and then there is very small minority who actually knows exactly where the boundaries are and what Lexus means. In other hand in middle-east Toyota = Lexus, they value both, but they don't consider either to be Premium/Luxury. They can have BMW or MB as premium car, but Lexus is a cleaners car, maybe taxi, it is just not considered luxury brand or at all separate from Toyota. What I think - Lexus LS, LC and RX are Lexus, NX is very well upgraded RAV4 and genuinely good car and the rest are overpriced rebadged Toyota cars. And that is actually true, because UX is 100% rebadged Toyota CHR, drove both, they are identical in all key areas and likewise useless. Basically if I had to get car of that size then the Corolla would be the best option, because UX/CH-R are just bigger, more stupid looking Corolla, which actually has LESS space inside, less space in the back, less boot space and are really just higher-up from the road. Overall, current gen Corolla is great car and if it had RWD and maybe V6 option I would not be winging here, I would just have that (Corrola GR exists, but it is AWD and it is hatchback and it is not sold in Europe/UK). Same for LBX, even thought I have not tried neither Yaris Cross, nor obviously LBX, but it will be just stupid lifted Yaris... although at least bigger this time and I would even call it pretty (whereas UX is ugly). ES is based on Avalon, not Camry, but all 3 are same platform and again ES it is identical to Avalon, down to button layout and all key areas, from the 3 cars I actually prefer Camry the most. Again problem for me is that Camry is FWD.

And by the way - I don't have an issue with Camry, nor Avalon... I have issue with them being called ES and sold for more money. Although Toyota is so upmarket now that the price difference is minimal, supporting my statement that perhaps Lexus no longer serves the purpose and does not need to exist. Could it be argued that ES got little bit more sound proofing? Yes it did... does ES get premium quality leather seats in Takumi spec which is not available on Avalon? Yes that is correct as well. But does $20 worth of extra foam padding and $200 worth of leather upgrade makes Avalon into Lexus... NO it doesn't!

I guess in summary - I just can't see why Lexus exist anymore. In my opinion they either need to significantly improve the Lexus, to the point where IS may cost £10,000 more than BMW 3-Series, but the equipment and performance would put even 5-Series to shame... in which case it is win-win-win - Toyota moves upmarket and becomes competitor to BMW/MB, Lexus moves further up-market and becomes more Luxurious than BMW/MB and sort of more in the class of maybe Maserati, Porsche and Bentley and consumer wins, because now you have Toyota at £40,000 but rivalling BMW at £50,000, and you have Lexus at £60,000 but offering the level of Luxury that otherwise is £90,000. Or the second option is for Toyota to back down, which I guess from Toyota perspective would be lose-lose-win, so they sell Toyota for less, they sell Lexus for less, but for consumer that is still good outcome because they can get alternative to German car for decent price. However, what we currently have have is win-win-lose situation - Toyota sells for more, Lexus sells for more, but we as consumer have to overpay for both or go German.

And yes you right - that is not only Toyota, that is all car manufacturers hiking the prices and £44,000 for Golf is indeed ridiculous... but why not if Toyota sells CHR with UX badge for similar money and Golf is probably better car for £44,000 than CH-R is (although it should be noted it is Golf-R we talking about here with all-wheel drive and 320HP, the CHR equivalent Style-Hybrid is £29,000).

In the end of the day this is part consumer problem, if consumer say F-U, I am not paying £44,000 for Golf regardless of what engine it has inside and I am not paying £35,000 for Yaris with Lexus badge on it, and I simply going to keep my current car for extra 2 years... there will be no other option but for car manufacturers to compete more and drop the prices, or offer genuine upgrade so good that consumer finally decides it is worth it. But as I said - people seems to have too much disposable money to wasted on the cars and the current pricing will continue until that is the case.

[dutchie01]

22 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Make no mistake - technology that went into original Yaris in 1999 was as advanced for the time and as expensive as the technology that goes into brand spanking new Lexus Yaris Cross in 2023. For Toyota it cost exactly the same amount of money to make £35,000 Toyota LBX as back in 1999 it costed to make original Yaris. The only thing that has changes is their profit margins and they want to increase them even further with this little badge engineering. 

2 things. The above i find difficult to believe, any sources to back this up?

then i fully utterly agree to your long read thesis of the core values of the Lexus brand. From the beginning Lexus was set out to give the most sophisticated experience and be the absolute champion in NVH. For this 6 pots were the absolute minimum. No 4 cylinders allowed as the vibrations were too rough. Diesel? forget it. Anyway those values were left behind pretty soon as i guess they were too expensive and profits are an important byproduct of car manufacturung. So you have cars that have more Lexus than Toyota in them and the other way around. Prime example is my IS250. Superior buildquality to the level of the glovebox or silky smooth 6 pot. Then my IS300H. Apart from the great looks the quality is just not thesame,more toyota than Lexus. I drove an ES as i needed a new car but to me it just felt like a Toyota. NOT a Lexus. So where from here? Having NVH as core value the current electric wave is a big threat as all EVs are silent. So Superior Technology? Forget it with the first Lexus EVs beeing sub par and the infotainment still behind the competion. Looks? well..... 

I see Lexus become a USA brand alltogether and would not be surprised if they leave Europe/UK alltogether.

[Linas.P]

11 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

2 things. The above i find difficult to believe, any sources to back this up?

Well maybe an exageration and for sure I have no sources to back this up EXACTLY... but let's just looks at how much cheaper is technology today.

What was the price of phone in 1999? Simple phone, not even SMS, camera forget it... so if we make comparison to modern smartphones (which by the way becoming increasingly more expensive as well) then what £500 buys you today, would have required a £1000 phone, £3500 camera, £299 pager, £500 digital diary, £5000 laptop, £400 cd-player and hell knows how many more devices, things like GPS wasn't even available back then in hand held form at all, there was no cam-coder that can record at 4K, 120 or even 240FPS, I think by 1999 you may have had one of the very first digital camcorders with with 320p resolution and 24FPS. So not only the technology inevitably became cheaper, but it is now better. Or even simpler just look at todays laptop vs. laptop 1999. So all the technology became so much cheaper. I remember us buying first LCD TV in like 2002 and we paid ~£1400 for 32" screen, now 75" of way superior technology screen can be bought for £299.

So yes LBX may have LSS+ with radar cruise, automatic braking, RCTA, LDA etc... but that is because those things costs literally few pennies nowadays, and back in 1999 the basic radio tape with cassette and rudimentary ABS system costed equivalent amount of money. 

My point - Yaris Cross not just shares the name with original Yaris, it shares the segment of the car, it is as exciting and modern today as original Yaris was in 1999. Sure now if we look at it it seems basic and shaite, but for contemporary person it would have been equivalent of what Yaris Cross is today and if we look at what Yaris Cross offers today... obviously no car in 1999 had that, not even S-Class.

Obviously Toyota would like you to think exactly that - "Yaris Cross is small SUV and original Yaris was sub-compact hatchback, so the price should not be compared". Except that is false - again making car just bigger doesn't cost more money to make it, exact reason why automakers focuses so much on SUVs - it makes easier to gaslight people into believing they buying bigger and more luxurious car. That is exact reason why all car are always becoming bigger when next generations comes along. Current 3-Series is bigger than last 5-Series and bigger than 7-Series from 90s.

31 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

Prime example is my IS250. Superior buildquality to the level of the glovebox or silky smooth 6 pot. Then my IS300H. Apart from the great looks the quality is just not thesame,more toyota than Lexus. I drove an ES as i needed a new car but to me it just felt like a Toyota. NOT a Lexus.

Exactly - the quality difference in materials is very noticeable going from mk2 to mk3 and then again from mk3 IS to ES. As you said ES is distinctively Toyota and if you have a chance to try Avalon, then you will realise how unbelievable similar it is to ES. Not a problem in itself, but when you get out of the Lexus and sit inside ES, you will notice instantly. 

[Spacewagon52]

On 7/30/2023 at 7:54 PM, dutchie01 said:

 Is it too expensive? Thats for each individual to decide but i personally think cars have become shockingly expensive. 

The "chip" crisis has caused a really skewed used car market. Prices for bangers are ridiculous. Buying a car privately is at present very expensive compared with pre-COVID prices. When buying with your own money, great thought and care is needed. That is why I chose to stick with Lexus. All my previous Lexus cars (4) have been relatively OLD until I bought the NX.

If you are considering buying a car from April 2017 onwards, the luxury tax (6 years) is something to consider. Personally I like lots of space in a car - particularly the boot. The NX vs the RX was a compromise for me on boot space and running costs. The X Factor was the wife, who flatly refused to drive the 4th generation RX. Car manufacturers are going through a painful readjustment. The writing is on the wall, regarding climate change. No matter how much we would love to keep the ICE, I feel it will soon be a dinosaur. Unfortunately this will not affect many of us on the forum, as we will be dead by then! 

 

 

[Linas.P]

Actually, I realised that 1999 is quite convenient year for comparisons, because Toyota not only launched brand new Yaris that year... they as well launched one other brand new car - Lexus IS (technically 1998 October in Japan).

And here we can make few very interesting comparisons, so we can clearly see how Toyota was moving up-market, here I tracked RAV4, Rush (sort of lifted Yaris from back of the day, so good comparison for Yaris Cross), Yaris and for competitor - BMW 320:

Price in brackets is adjusted for inflation, note some prices are converted from US dollars, the Rush price is from Malaysian Ringgit, so there would be some variation. I tried to adjust for it by using models that are sold in both countries (RAV4) although I doubt this would affect conclusion.

So here something interesting happens... Yaris used to cost only 33% of IS price, the Rush was ~44% and RAV4 61%. As well BMW was 2 years old model by 1999 (launched 1997) but was still slightly more expensive. So this just illustrates two things - how IS was good value for money compared to BMW, because that was brand new model on the market competing against older model (although, I suspect BMW back in the days was selling below list price). And secondly - how premium was Lexus compared to Toyota or how cheap the Toyota was. So buying 1 Lexus was equivalent to buying 3 Yaris, or 2.5 Toyota rush, or 1.5 RAV4

Now we come to another interesting part, so first of all there is obviously no Lexus IS in UK, but I tried to estimate the cost by triangulating it with RAV4 (that is sold in both US and UK), but it makes no sense whatsoever and I just can't see Lexus IS being more than £45,000 for current model. In UK RAV4 is ~£42,000, in US only $33,000... so if we adjust US Lexus price of $42,000 like for like, that would be £55,000, which would be absurd. Anyway - that caveat out of the way, what becomes clear is that Lexus IS would have to sell pretty much for the same price as it used to cost back in 1999, instead of being slightly cheaper than BMW, it would be slightly more expensive (and that is trend which we had for good 10 years now and what in my opinion killed IS in UK - nobody pays premium over BMW for IS, it has to be slightly cheaper to sell). The second thing which I didn't expect is that brand new BMW now would be relatively speaking cheaper than it was in 1999. And finally we get to my point - Yaris is now 52% of IS price, Yaris-Cross 60% of the price and RAV4 is not only more expensive than BMW, but as well nearly the same price as IS. 

So Yaris climbed 19% up the market, Yaris Cross 16% and RAV4 whopping 33%!

Conclusion - Toyota just pushed IS out of UK market as there was no price point for it here, it would look silly either way you price it. Toyota increased the prices across the range... and BMW turns out is genuinely good value now! There is one other way to look at it - seems like BMW may have played the role pushing the Lexus IS out as well, the reduced their 3-Series price or simply kept it the same and squeezed IS out as it could not compete at that price point. I would speculate that Toyota simply decided not to compete for entry-exec saloon market as that was not their core focus and they simply abandoned it for more lucrative SUV space and exited IS.

 

 

[dutchie01]

interesting statistical exercise, but even without one can draw the conclusion that the laws of supply and demand are at work here. Everybody wants a small SUV or crossover and nobody a saloon. As demand is so high one can easily inflate the purchaseprice and try to earn more money. Prime example and even admitting is Range Rover. When introducing the latest model the pricehike was considerable and in an interview i think in Car magazine the top exec told the interviewer that was because they could. High pricing will turn around when A) customers stop buying so demand falls, or B) some large competitor starts to decrease prices to push sales dragging the entire market down. That is now happening in BEV world where Tesla and BYD started a full out war in China with cars becoming cheaper every month.

Anyway back to the LBX. All depends on the price i guess which we dont know yet As Lexus intends this to be a volume seller in Europe it must be competitive enough to do so. If more expensive than for instance the new Volvo EX30 i think it will remain niche. Time will tell.

[stepppy]

Pre-order now available from £29,995.00 - Deliveries June 2024

https://www.lexus.co.uk/new-cars/lbx/pre-order

Not the same Atmosphere names as Europe has, we are getting the standard Premium, Takumi etc.

Full pricing October and that is when I will make my decision.

[ColinBarber]

Pricing is inline with expectations given that it will come from Japan and therefore be subject to import tax and higher shipping costs compared to the European built Yaris Cross. 

[stepppy]

Just now, ColinBarber said:

Pricing is inline with expectations given that it will come from Japan and therefore be subject to import tax and higher shipping costs compared to the European built Yaris Cross. 

Yes pretty much as I thought too. I wondered if it would be built in Japan, that’s good to hear 

[Don C]

Linas, you’re obviously bored to spew out reams of garbage in an attempt to convince us you must be right but you don’t know what you think you know about “rebadged” Toyotas.  A Lexus might share the same powertrain but that’s it.  I can’t take anybody serious who claims to hate a genre of vehicle.  Hating SUVs is like hating forks or telegraph poles.  

[Shahpor]

3 hours ago, Don C said:

Linas, you’re obviously bored to spew out reams of garbage in an attempt to convince us you must be right but you don’t know what you think you know about “rebadged” Toyotas.  A Lexus might share the same powertrain but that’s it.  I can’t take anybody serious who claims to hate a genre of vehicle.  Hating SUVs is like hating forks or telegraph poles.  

Oh you've done it now! 🙂

(Removed an ill thought out statement!)

Edited August 8, 2023 by Shahpor

[dutchie01]

Now thats a great new thread. Things i hate!

 

[ColinBarber]

22 minutes ago, Shahpor said:

Oh you've done it now! 🙂

Also, what's wrong with hating SUV's?  Linus certainly isn't the only one to do so.

Nothing, but there is no need to comment on an SUV thread if it isn’t of interest.

This thread is to discuss the LBX - anything not directly related to that subject will be removed. 

[H3XME]

Can everyone please stop getting upset over another's opinions? Yes, today's SUV's are pointless, it's an essentially lifted estate car but if one prefers it for whatever reason there's no need to start an argument. There is no right or wrong as such.

[Shahpor]

20 minutes ago, ColinBarber said:

Nothing, but there is no need to comment on an SUV thread if it isn’t of interest.

This thread is to discuss the LBX - anything not directly related to that subject will be removed. 

Sorry, didn't really think before posting, so I apologise if I caused any problems.

Strangely, I didn't actually consider the LBX as an SUV when I posted as I see it more of a CUV - if that is a thing!

I consider things like the BMW X5, X7, Lexus RX, Audi Q5, Q7, Mercedes GLC, etc.. as SUV's, but since the LBX is smaller than the CT with the exception of its height, I don't think it should fit in the same category as the others.  Perhaps we should consider them separate as this is also considered an SUV:

(All 2.7 tons of it!).

So, I am not actually against the LBX as a concept per se (although I would have preferred a standard hatchback), and am quite interested to see how it turns out, hence me reading this thread.

[Nick W858]

On 7/8/2023 at 10:20 AM, wharfhouse said:

I'll be buying a new hybrid just before they are banned unless a) fuel cell cars come forward at a sensible price b) BEV get significant reliable range and much lower charging time and reduce in price, and c) the EV infrastructure improves dramatically. I'm sure I can't be the only one thinking like this...

I agree with these sentiments. Had a Yaris Cross for two weeks whilst in between selling my is300h and waiting for my 2016 GS450h to be prepped. Did c500 miles plus in it and found it quite fun, very economical and easy to live with, could see myself in an LBX when I’m doing less of the long work trips (the GS is excellent for those longer drives). Whether the LBX is value for money is subjective, I predict they will shift a fair few of them though.

[Don C]

4 hours ago, H3XME said:

Can everyone please stop getting upset over another's opinions? Yes, today's SUV's are pointless, it's an essentially lifted estate car but if one prefers it for whatever reason there's no need to start an argument. There is no right or wrong as such.

I didn’t know there was a mediator other than the mods but my point is, this guy who doesn’t identify himself or what car he drives, professes to be an expert and states with such conviction why we are idiots for running rebadged Toyotas.  All Lexus’s are built in Japan.  The materials in the body and interior are superior, so are the underbody treatments, the self healing paint is thicker and more durable.  The sound insulation and the seats are another level, the electrics and lighting are upgraded and the fit and finish is the envy of the world.  I don’t know what this person runs if anything but I don’t suggest he’s being cheated or shouldn’t own it.  I’ll buy what I want and being in the motor industry for 29 years at a senior development level, I’m qualified to judge what manufacturers build.  So firstly, I don’t need a sermon from you because I responded to these painfully long posts on why Lexus are cheats.  Secondly, a Lexus is worth a lot more because it costs a lot more to produce.  It is an all round better car.  

[MartinH]

43 minutes ago, Don C said:

Secondly, a Lexus is worth a lot more because it costs a lot more to produce.  It is an all round better car.  

Agree, mostly. On the other hand, Toyota Corolla is basically 90% of the car 90% of car buyers actually need.

[Nick W858]

2 hours ago, MartinH said:

Agree, mostly. On the other hand, Toyota Corolla is basically 90% of the car 90% of car buyers actually need.

Need v want are two very different things and for most people a second hand anything for less than £5k would satisfy most of their motoring ‘needs’. My wife is constantly telling me she doesn’t need another dress or handbag but she jolly well wants one and that’s what she’s going to buy!

[H3XME]

3 hours ago, Don C said:

.  So firstly, I don’t need a sermon from you because I responded to these painfully long posts on why Lexus are cheats.  Secondly, a Lexus is worth a lot more because it costs a lot more to produce.  It is an all round better car.  

[serbarry]

4 hours ago, Don C said:

I didn’t know there was a mediator other than the mods but my point is, this guy who doesn’t identify himself or what car he drives, professes to be an expert and states with such conviction why we are idiots for running rebadged Toyotas.  All Lexus’s are built in Japan.  The materials in the body and interior are superior, so are the underbody treatments, the self healing paint is thicker and more durable.  The sound insulation and the seats are another level, the electrics and lighting are upgraded and the fit and finish is the envy of the world.  I don’t know what this person runs if anything but I don’t suggest he’s being cheated or shouldn’t own it.  I’ll buy what I want and being in the motor industry for 29 years at a senior development level, I’m qualified to judge what manufacturers build.  So firstly, I don’t need a sermon from you because I responded to these painfully long posts on why Lexus are cheats.  Secondly, a Lexus is worth a lot more because it costs a lot more to produce.  It is an all round better car.  

I don't understand why being upset about Lina's opinion. He never said that you are idiots. He has a different opinion than you about the latest Lexus models. I don't know if he's right but I think that different opinions and views in a forum make the forum more interesting. I think he's right saying that nowadays new cars are too expensive and if customers didn't buy them, cars manufacturers would be obliged to reduce the price. This is a simple law of the market. For me the LBX is a pretty car, seems well built and maybe could do good sales. Would I buy new? Not at all! It's not worth that money for me but I don't think that someone else who buys it is an idiot. Probably for him it is worth that money or maybe he doesn't care because he has a lot of money to spend. But I have never bought a brand new car, too expensive and not worth. I have always bought second hand cars. Unlike Linas, I don't hate SUV as type of car itself, but what I do hate is the fashion of buying only SUV and crossovers and consequently the trend of cars manufacturers of making only SUV and crossovers. My wife has a 2018 Hyundai i30 fastback saloon with only 32,000 Kms bought from new. Since the second mileage service in 2020 the local Hyundai dealer where we bought it has called her twice a year until last May asking her to trade in her i30 for a newer model promising a very good trade in value. They stopped calling her when bothered, she told them that she is not interested in SUV and crossovers and as Hyundai doesn't have a single saloon in its range anymore she won't change the i30. Actually if the dealer could offer the brand new Elantra my wife would consider swapping her car. I personally hate waiting minutes in the car park of a shopping centre that a lady in her 30s, 40s or 50s is struggling to park her NX, X3, Q3, etc. Why do they buy a SUV if they are not able to park it? Do they really need it?