Which electric cars are IS 300h owners buying?

[mhult]

I am curious regarding which cars IS 300h owners who are going fully electric are buying.

I love sports sedans and have been driving Lexus IS since 2010. I am really into the refinement of Lexus cars and would probably order an electric IS immediately upon availability, unless there was something seriously lacking with it.

My wife drives a UX 300e which is nice but unfortunately too small and too short in range for me, and I am not an SUV person. I tried the RZ and did not like it much.

The BMW i4 M50 impressed me with its performance and comfort level, and being fully electric is almost as smooth to drive as a Lexus (unlike ICE BMWs). Adding loads of options, including ventilated seats and smooth ivory white merino leather brought it close to the Lexus Takumi level of luxurious feeling. So that is what I ordered.

Please share your thoughts and choices on this topic.

[Notamech]

Not sure about others but in my case the IS is the "outstation" car. If the family have to travel somewhere far its the car we use. And for that reason I wouldn't consider an electric car at the moment. Seems like were not totally there yet with the infrastructure. If its a city car i need then electric makes sense but id probably look into a more practical hatchback type car. Seen a review of the new lexus RZ electric recently on the carcarenut channel seems like its not the best option out there and potentially better options exist. 

[Digifant]

When I was considering to buy mine, I was looking for c-class or 3 series then. But it was about 10k more expensive than the is300h. So, I think when time will come for car change, it's more likely I will repeat that. I don't think that future is for fully electric(I mean 50-100years), unless we are not talking about city only car. 

[Linas.P]

31 minutes ago, Digifant said:

(I mean 50-100years)

I am pretty sure they will figure out Battery tech within maybe 20 years, but there is no chance in hell or heaven it will be ready by 2030-2035. Not only Battery tech as well - it is everything about our infrastructure that sucks, we don't generate enough energy, our transmission networks can't handle the demand and in the end we simply don't have enough fast chargers where they need to be. To be fair we have solutions for all these things, it is just going to take time to actually install everything and so far goverment does not give a shaite it seems, so we definitely not going to be ready for 2030... at least I personally think it is too late even if they suddenly decide to do something about it next year. First we need to increase our peak energy generation by 50% if not double it (I mean 6-8PM peak), then we need to probably quadruple transmission capacity and then we need to install 300Kwh+ chargers at every home including all related wiring. Or else we need to abandon BEV plans. 

And I am sure there are some people who says - "well I am fine, I have driveway, I have 7Kwh charger and I can charge my car overnight". Yes you can, as well you are lucky minority in the country. Majority of people can't even park at home, never mind charge the car. 

That said I think BMW i4 would be my choice of BEV if I had to choose... I hate that they don't make any coupes (there is basically no electric coupe on offer for some reason), but i4 is closest thing to the normal car which isn't made by chinese toys company (Tesla). 

[mhult]

It is really interesting, the different rates of transition to electric vehicles in different parts of the world.

Norway is the real outlier, with fully electric now being 80 percent of new car sales, and new ICE passenger car sales to be prohibited already in 2025.

I live in Sweden, where fully electric is now 30 percent of all new car sales. The tax incentives for company car drivers are now such that unless a fully electric car does absolutely not work for your driving patterns, fully electric is the only way to go.

For more luxurious cars, the cost differences are quite significant. Using the BMW i4 M50 as an example, the M440i, which is perhaps the closest ICE equivalent, is about 80 percent more expensive for the driver. Even a more modest sedan, such as the Lexus ES 300h is significantly more heavily taxed than the BMW i4 M50.

Charging is obviously an issue if you have to park in the street. But everyone who owns a house here already has 400 V three phase power coming into the house, and can easily install a 11 kW or 22 kW charger. We installed a dual outlet 22 kW charger while waiting for delivery of the UX. Our main fuses are 3 x 25 A, so we obviously can't charge two cars at full power unless we upgrade the fuses (at some cost in the monthly grid fee). And the UX only has stupid single-phase charging, so when the heating system is running at 5 - 10 kW (intermittently) during winter, the UX sometimes goes down to 2 kW. We have a load balancing device which measures the current on each phase and informs the charger how much it can use. But so far we have never failed to have a full charge in the morning (I have the charger set to only charge off-peak). But it was really nice to see the RZ and i4 M50 charge at 11 kW when I had those on loan over weekends.

[Linas.P]

40 minutes ago, mhult said:

Norway is the real outlier <> in Sweden, where fully electric is now 30 percent of all new car sales. The tax incentives for company car drivers are now such that unless a fully electric car does absolutely not work for your driving patterns, fully electric is the only way to go.

closest ICE equivalent, is <> is significantly more heavily taxed than the BMW i4 M50.

<> everyone who owns a house here already has 400 V three phase power coming into the house, and can easily install a 11 kW or 22 kW charger. 

I think what is not well understood (in UK) - both Norway and Sweden are countries with tiny population. Sweden is about the size of London and Norway is like Manchester and third of Birmingham. So the challenges in UK and challenges in Sweden and Norway are different. You simply don't have such issues like shortage of housing, parking paces and lack of all imaginable infrastructure. And it seems what is not understood outside of UK is that at least around London the infrastructure is just horrible... like nothing is right and everything is in shocking condition.

As you live in Sweden I am sure it is hard to even understand how bad the situation is in UK with parking. It was probably 8 years since I been in Stockholm, but as far as I can remember one can drive to the centre and find plenty of parking there. Not only that - many residential parking spaces had like 10kW capable socket for each car to connect electric heater i.e. my friends explained to me that they come in the winter morning, flick the switch next to the car and there is heater fitted to the car and connected to the socket and it heats the car.... so you already have infrastructure for BEVs... If the matter in UK would be just to buy the cars themselves there would be no issue. But we lack even most fundamental things - if you have no parking then you can't install the charger, if you can't install the charger then you can't have BEV. And I mean it is not like "not having parking at home"... no most of the time people don't have parking at all! I take the estate I am living as example... we have ~30 parking spaces per 100 apartments... and in London this is pretty much norm. 

Taxes as well are less beneficial to BEV in UK, because we have 5 years tax supplement for cars over £40,000. So BMW 440i is not going not cost you that much more over 5 years than BMW i4 M50. Sure first year will cost a lot ~£2,000, but 440i is much cheaper compared to i4 (£59,000 vs £71,000), then you will have to pay £390+£180 for 440i and only £390 for i4. So total cost for 5 years will be £64,500 for 440i and £72,950 for i4 M50.

In UK most homes won't have 3-phaee and especially in countryside most can't handle much kW at all anyway. Just search for "black-outs" in UK and you will see it is quite common in more rural areas. So in the cities we have no parking, outside of the cities we don't have reliable electricity. So forget any sort of chargers before there is complete overhaul of entire distribution network.

 

[mhult]

You are of course right, LInas, except one minor detail. Most domestic outlets and outdoor outlets here are 10 Ampere, not 10 kilowatts, which is fine for our electric cabin and engine block heaters that we expect to be able to run at home and at work, so our cars are per-conditioned for driving in the winter. But it is not enough for electric vehicle charging. That still requires additional installations in public spaces.

Yes, I know we are privileged. I spend a significant part of my professional life working around Europe, and have also worked in the energy infrastructure sector.

So it is easy for me to enjoy fabulous electric cars and feel good about weaning myself off fossil fuels. On the global scale this is a much more complex problem.

Anyway, we who have the infrastructure should use this opportunity, and I hope in due time everyone is able to do this on a global level.

[Digifant]

What is the status with old Battery recycling issue in Sweden?

[mhult]

36 minutes ago, Digifant said:

What is the status with old battery recycling issue in Sweden?

That's a short simple question that I am not sure I can give a short simple answer to.

Well, as per EU regulations that have been in place for decades, landfills are basically prohibited. That is, the only things we put in waste landfills are rocks, concrete, bricks, tile, plaster, ceramics, and glass that is not packaging (because that is recycled separately). That stuff is then taken out of the waste landfills when building roads or filling the ground for other useful purposes.

Consequentially, all batteries are taken care of by recycling facilities. That goes for all kinds of batteries, whether they are small button cells, phone batteries, electric car batteries or industrial batteries. As to the efficiency of that recycling, your guesses are as good as mine. I presume if there is value in the materials, they are indeed recycled. When there is no value in the materials, or rather, when the recycling is too expensive, I would guess that the materials do end up in some kind of environmentally safe storage above or below ground, until the technological economics of recycling improves.

But this is rarely spoken about publicly.

How is it in the UK?

I do believe there is a mechanism of industrious people constantly looking to develop the recycling business for the good of the planet (and their investors). I put quite a lot of trust in this mechanism.

[Linas.P]

1 hour ago, mhult said:

How is it in the UK?

In general... we are forced to separate "recyclable" materials, which are then collected by councils and collection is paid for by ourselves in a form of council tax (sort of tax on property owners), then "recycling companies" charge the fee for accepting "recycling" materials and doing final sorting on it and even claim subsidies from government, then instead of recycling they instead sell now roughly separated valuable materials to some poor Asian/African countries where kids pull the valuable components/materials apart and all the toxic waste is the left in the open pit. So basically we have to put a lot of effort removing lids and washing our trash, to then be able to pay for somebody to collect actual material from us for free, so that they can then sell it to developing country and use child-labour to process it. 

I have literally seen documentary where kids in Bangladesh crush computer PCBs with stones into fine dust and then wash the metal in plates (I think they called mining pans, like in old days they used to mine gold from river mudbanks). 

Sorry to be very pessimistic, but recycling is mostly "myth"... it could be done, but for most part if it is "ethical" then it is uneconomical, and if is economical then it is unethical, but most time it is as well worse for environment than landfills. Could Battery recycling be done right? maybe... sustainability pyramid comes to mind here... but it is rarely actually followed. So in theory we should reduce the use, but it is kind of exactly opposite what "long range" BEVs are doing, now seems that everyone are competing on who can put largest Battery pack in their vehicle. Reuse is kind of niche as realistically there are very few application where Battery packs from old cars can be reused on scale... and finally we come to recycling it. Again - I do believe it can be done using very advanced facilities, but it is just uneconomical and for foreseeable future mining new lithium will remain cheaper than recycling, so I am not expecting much. 

[javadude]

On 5/11/2023 at 9:00 PM, mhult said:

I am curious regarding which cars IS 300h owners who are going fully electric are buying.

Ignoring the luddites... and back to the OP's question...

I went from an NX300h to a Tesla 3LR. I've previously had an IS200 and IS220d and like being back in a saloon. I'm looking forward to Lexus producing a good and affordable EV. I don't think they're there yet. The i4 sounds good, probably better levels of comfort than a Tesla.

[PaulWhitt20]

Well I’d like an electric IS, I like the idea of an EV and it would suit my driving needs 90 % of the time. But am not keen on the SUV designs. It would have to be reliable, well built and reasonably priced. 
I am tempted by the UX but I could only see it as a short term car for a few years. I don’t think I could fall in love with it. Not sure I could bring myself to part ex the IS for one. So I’ll stick with my IS until Lexus or Honda do an EV saloon or hatchback for sensible money. It may be a while. 

[ganzoom]

There are so many choices now buy what ever car you like with in your price range.

We've had an EV since 2015 as our main family car, our current EV is now 5.5 years old with 63k miles on the clock.

We are going to Loch Lommand from Leicester for half term, and in the summer going to Milan. 

Our IS300H only gets used for local trips, it's done just 42k miles in 7.5 years.

The Mercedes EQ range is worth looking at as well as the BMW I range if you cannot bring your self to buy the default choice for EVs.

Oh I would love to visit Sweden in our EV, last year we did UK to Norway. We are lucky enough to have visited some amazing places in the world including New Zealand and most of the far east, Switzerland etc, but Scandinavia blew us away. If I was single and 'free' I would be seriously considering how to emigrated there, its an amazing part of the world with some of the friendliest people I have come across 🙂

 

 

 

[ganzoom]

Almost forgot, Polstar and Volvo are doing some great EVs these days. 

[Mr Vlad]

Interesting thread you started Mattias. I'll join in as I'm a former keeper of the is300h premier. Superb car from which I went to RX450H as a larger car was needed. Now I'm in the best Lexus I've owned. The is250 and the way I see things is I'll still be in my is250 long after I've retired in 6 or so years. To go EV for me is a very expensive unaffordable luxury which I'll never enter EV ownership. 

Those with EV's I wish you well and hold no negativity. 

[Linas.P]

On 5/13/2023 at 3:06 PM, javadude said:

Lexus producing a good and affordable EV.

Lexus is literally the last company I would expect to produce affordable EV.

Like why would they? Lexus is Luxury car brand... The "luxury" brands charge premium over normal cars... and Lexus is based on Toyota, which is already "premium-mainstream" and more expensive than most of competition.

The way I see it - there are economy car brands e.g. Dacia, MG (-20% of what would be expected, but materials and reliability is not the same)... then there is mainstream like Kia, WV, Honda... and Toyota is technically part of that mainstream, but to be fair Toyota was long charging premium even over other mainstream brands. Toyota is kind of comparable maybe to Volvo and Alfa Romeo, not luxury brand, but certainly more expensive that Skoda, WV, Honda, Mazda etc. so I would not even expect "affordable" BEV from Toyota, the reliable and dependable yes, but not affordable (Toyota is like +10% in terms of price). And then there are "luxury/premium" brands - Lexus, MB, BMW, Audi etc. that are charging +20-50% over what the car should cost just because of brand image and maybe little bit more premium materials. But realistically premium cars costs maybe 2% more to make, but are 20%+ more expensive to buy. Well and obviously then there are chinese toys company a.k.a Tesla, which has so horrible build quality that even Dacia or MG looks like very well build cars in comparison and it dares to charge 50% premium just because of liar Elun Mushk promises non-sense which he can't ever deliver... sort of "fake it until you make it mentality" (...or rather exactly that), whilst actual build quality is shockingly bad and Tesla often tops the charts of most unreliable cars as well, despite being electric and would be expected to be more reliable.

Son in that sense - sure Lexus maybe able to offer competitor to Model S/3, which would cost similar, but would be actually made to the quality expected from the car and not from toy... but I would not expect them to offer true "affordable" BEV.

[dutchie01]

Linas i agree with what you say but bear in mind that is our thinking, people that drive/drove Lexus and are interested in buildquality, perfect fit and finish tight shutlines and premium feel quality materials in all touchpoints. BUT, are we a dying breed?? How do you otherwise explain the massive success of Tesla? Surely in buildqulity they are at the bottom of the pit but the Y is the absolute bestselling car in the world and as a manufacturer they dominate many countries and this will become even bigger withe new low cost Tesla in the pipeline.

It seems people just dont care and see a car as a washingmachine. Energy level A, practical, cheap to run. OK that white one please?

[dutchie01]

 

BTW, Mattias, if you like a sporty sedan and want to go electric make sure you test the Model 3 performance or the Polestar 2 BST 230

[First_Lexus]

Coming from two NX followed by my current RX, I’ve considered an EV and now have two relatives who own them - one with a company Tesla Model Y and one a Kia Niro.

My personal choice, having experienced a test drive, would be the Hyundai IONIC5. From my perspective it strikes an acceptable balance between practicality, price, range, and build quality.

The Volvo range is solid (surprise!) but limited range tends to be an issue based on my needs.

As I’ve said on other threads on this subject, for me the EV limitation of motorway speeds and colder Winter weather makes my 250 mile weekly round trip to my office just slightly too far without a recharge along the way. That’s an inconvenience I’m not prepared to live with yet as I simply don’t need to. 

I wouldn’t consider a Tesla, partly because I find the tech baffling, partly because the build quality is so poor, and partly because of the ‘new money’ image they seem to attract. That’s a personal choice, understanding that the range of the Tesla would be acceptable for my needs - it’s just that the rest of the experience isn’t.

[Linas.P]

3 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

How do you otherwise explain the massive success of Tesla?

Why Iphone is so successful despite being absolute shaite made by slave child labour for ~$150 and sold for $1000? Do you know why crapple had to raise the price of Iphone X? That was because they finally got mid range Samsung made screen after decade of using obsolete LCD... and for the screen alone they had to pay Samsung like $250, whereas their whole assembled Iphone was $150... as such first Iphone X had to sell at $1700 and fans just sucked it-up!

Why Prada, Versace, Gucci or Armani can sell simple while t-shirt made for $0.50 in sweatshop in Indonesia for $299? 

That is because it is FASHION, fashion is stupid, it is irrational... Tesla is fashion, they have "charismatic" leader (that is if IQ of the person judging is ~<50), who supposedly virtue signalling about how he is making world "better"... how he in 2015 promised full self-driving and yet to this day it is in "BETA" and dozen of people die every year because it is absolute shaite, how he said in ~2012 Battery swapping will be available in 2 years and to this day there is still nothing like that. Cybertruck "coming" in 2020. Let just be real - he is liar, his cars are just fashion products and they are shaite, Tesla literally lost 50% of value this year and it is only going to go down. One trick up-his sleeves is supercharger network, which will generate a lot of profit going forward... the other and slightly unrelated is Starlink, because it is pretty much in the league of it's own and decades ahead of competition, but Tesla is just fashion fart... unpleasant and it whittle away one day. Remember how California was full of Prius? Then Lexus RX hybrids... then Tesla... and I would say it is already past that... now Porsche Tycan "Turbo" or Audi eTron GT is probably more "fashionable". Fashion comes and goes, Tesla is a trend of last 5-10 years, it is really now at it's sunset and in 10 years it will be just bad memories. 

You are right about people treating cars as disposable... so basically it is just fast fashion now... I would not say that Tesla is really tat successful outside of US and few very specific markets. It actually isn't. Worldwide BEV remains just under 10% of sales and 1% of cars on the roads, sure if you look to Knightsbridge in particular, or in California, or Norway, or Netherlands then it seems Tesla takes 100% of sales... but if you look at bigger picture BEVs are still niche and Tesla is actively losing the leader position in that niche I am pretty sure something as mundane as Kia Niro is outselling Tesla (all model combined). There was a time when Tesla was the only one in this game, that time has passed, now competition is stiff and despite BEV sales going up year-on-year, Teslas is smaller and smaller part of that market. They had this all lie of changing perspectives, how "being electric = being luxurious an premium", but now that REAL car companies start selling BEVs Tesla has nothing to offer. Something like i4 M50 just blows Model 3 out of this universe... sure it is probably 20% more expensive... but it just shows that Tesla is just not competitor for BMW... it is toys brand which decided to make cars and had some limited success by being first to the market... but it remains toy brand... poor quality toys even at that.

So no... I don't think we are dying breed. Brainless fanboys/girls and fashion slaves will suck-up anything, but fashion doesn't last forever. There was period where Tesla was the only choice, but now there are others and as soon as people see alternative they won't get Tesla. My bet - Teslas days are numbered. it will be merged in with something like GM, Elun the liar Mushk will get absolute $50 billion pay day and we will see it taking it's well deserved place along the lines of other legacy brands. Technology will live-on Tesla tech is honestly not bad and they may even exist as badge engineered brand for some time.

In that sense I can't say Tesla was "unsuccessful" as idea... it shifted the market forced, it created new niche, it forced industry leaders to rethink, it created a fashion and it made it's creator rich (to be honest Mushk hasn't even created the company, he just invested/bought the idea). So Mushk will live happily ever after, he made his money, there was a little bit of stir and controversy, he made his bet, he won it... happy ending! Just not expect Tesla to last forever. 

[Digifant]

34 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Why iPhone is so successful despite being absolute shaite made by slave child labour for ~$150 and sold for $1000? Do you know why crapple had to raise the price of iPhone X? That was because they finally got mid range Samsung made screen after decade of using obsolete LCD... and for the screen alone they had to pay Samsung like $250, whereas their whole assembled iphone was $150... as such first iPhone X had to sell at $1700 and fans just sucked it-up!

Why Prada, Versace, Gucci or Armani can sell simple while t-shirt made for $0.50 in sweatshop in Indonesia for $299? 

That is because it is FASHION, fashion is stupid, it is irrational... Tesla is fashion, they have "charismatic" leader (that is if IQ of the person judging is ~<50), who supposedly virtue signalling about how he is making world "better"... how he in 2015 promised full self-driving and yet to this day it is in "BETA" and dozen of people die every year because it is absolute shaite, how he said in ~2012 battery swapping will be available in 2 years and to this day there is still nothing like that. Cybertruck "coming" in 2020. Let just be real - he is liar, his cars are just fashion products and they are shaite, Tesla literally lost 50% of value this year and it is only going to go down. One trick up-his sleeves is supercharger network, which will generate a lot of profit going forward... the other and slightly unrelated is Starlink, because it is pretty much in the league of it's own and decades ahead of competition, but Tesla is just fashion fart... unpleasant and it whittle away one day. Remember how California was full of Prius? Then Lexus RX hybrids... then Tesla... and I would say it is already past that... now Porsche Tycan "Turbo" or Audi eTron GT is probably more "fashionable". Fashion comes and goes, Tesla is a trend of last 5-10 years, it is really now at it's sunset and in 10 years it will be just bad memories. 

You are right about people treating cars as disposable... so basically it is just fast fashion now... I would not say that Tesla is really tat successful outside of US and few very specific markets. It actually isn't. Worldwide BEV remains just under 10% of sales and 1% of cars on the roads, sure if you look to Knightsbridge in particular, or in California, or Norway, or Netherlands then it seems Tesla takes 100% of sales... but if you look at bigger picture BEVs are still niche and Tesla is actively losing the leader position in that niche I am pretty sure something as mundane as Kia Niro is outselling Tesla (all model combined). There was a time when Tesla was the only one in this game, that time has passed, now competition is stiff and despite BEV sales going up year-on-year, Teslas is smaller and smaller part of that market. They had this all lie of changing perspectives, how "being electric = being luxurious an premium", but now that REAL car companies start selling BEVs Tesla has nothing to offer. Something like i4 M50 just blows Model 3 out of this universe... sure it is probably 20% more expensive... but it just shows that Tesla is just not competitor for BMW... it is toys brand which decided to make cars and had some limited success by being first to the market... but it remains toy brand... poor quality toys even at that.

So no... I don't think we are dying breed. Brainless fanboys/girls and fashion slaves will suck-up anything, but fashion doesn't last forever. There was period where Tesla was the only choice, but now there are others and as soon as people see alternative they won't get Tesla. My bet - Teslas days are numbered. it will be merged in with something like GM, Elun the liar Mushk will get absolute $50 billion pay day and we will see it taking it's well deserved place along the lines of other legacy brands. Technology will live-on Tesla tech is honestly not bad and they may even exist as badge engineered brand for some time.

In that sense I can't say Tesla was "unsuccessful" as idea... it shifted the market forced, it created new niche, it forced industry leaders to rethink, it created a fashion and it made it's creator rich (to be honest Mushk hasn't even created the company, he just invested/bought the idea). So Mushk will live happily ever after, he made his money, there was a little bit of stir and controversy, he made his bet, he won it... happy ending! Just not expect Tesla to last forever. 

10 likes, mate!

[mhult]

4 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

 

BTW, Mattias, if you like a sporty sedan and want to go electric make sure you test the Model 3 performance or the Polestar 2 BST 230

Thanks, but I already ordered a BMW i4. I am sure Tesla and Polestar make fine driving experiences, but I have specific reasons for not preferring those brands.

[mhult]

9 hours ago, Mr Vlad said:

Interesting thread you started Mattias. I'll join in as I'm a former keeper of the is300h premier. Superb car from which I went to RX450H as a larger car was needed. Now I'm in the best Lexus I've owned. The is250 and the way I see things is I'll still be in my is250 long after I've retired in 6 or so years. To go EV for me is a very expensive unaffordable luxury which I'll never enter EV ownership. 

Those with EV's I wish you well and hold no negativity. 

Sometimes I wish I had kept my second gen IS as a collection item. It was a bit special, with light-coloured leather, Mark Levinson, and adaptive cruise control (when that was still quite an expensive extra). And the build quality of the second gen IS is stellar. It literally felt like the LS of the same era, obviously in a smaller format, and with a less powerful engine, but otherwise just as well crafted.

[MartinH]

What a lovely example! I have never seen that interior in a UK IS250.

Also, great reg if you are fan of Electronic Dance Music...

[javadude]

On 5/21/2023 at 12:51 PM, Linas.P said:

Lexus is literally the last company I would expect to produce affordable EV.

I just meant more affordable than the RZ 😢