Test Drive

[wivenhoe]

I think the WLTP test is unreliable. It puts the RZ Premium at 270 miles with a usable Battery of 64kw = 4.2 miles / kw which is utter tosh. Nearer 3.5 would be more accurate. 
That said, as above, I do wonder if they have increased the usable from 64kw to say 70kw so the 270 is a bit more realistic. 
If increasing the usable means a bit more degradation then they are in a bit of a bind as they have sold cars with a warranty of 10 years minimum 90%. They could make any update an option with a changed warranty but that would be really messy to manage in say 9 years ! 

[John Adams]

Just an update on my first long trip in the RZ. This was a 195-mile trip mostly M5 and M5. As I was in no rush as I was leaving the car at a relative prior to going on holiday the next day.  I decided to see what the maximum range I could comfortably get.

We started out with 100% Battery and a range on the app showing  245 miles without AC and 195 miles with AC.

We started off in eco mode and only used the AC when absolutely necessary to stop the boss complaining. I set the cruise to 60mph throughout. The first 40 miles were across country with a 60mph limit.

I did a route plan on Zap Map and it wanted me to stop near Swindon on the M4 with a predicted 30% Battery left. This was too low for comfort for me so I decided to stop  at various service stations to see if I could get a top up. Our normal stop is Gordano services near Bristol which is around 2 hours from home. Now Gordano only has 2 Gridserve chargers but 1 has been out of service for at least the last couple of years so there was little chance of me finding it free when I got there.

On the way I stopped at 2 services before Bristol but all the chargers were  in use. Finally got to Gordano and of course the charger was in use, so I was getting a little anxious about getting a charge when I needed it. Arriving at Gordano we had completed 98 miles and the predicted range was showing  102 miles left and roughly a 50% charge left which I thought was good.

Got to the Swindon charger as per Zap Map  and there were 4 Instavolt  with 1 free which I used. Charging went without a problem, and I resumed my journey.

Got to the destination and the trip was saying I had done 3.1 miles/kwh which I thought was good.

Overall the car performed well although I am not convinced it is as comfortable as the NX I sold but we shall see.

We will be travelling back home tomorrow so it will be interesting to see what happens with Friday traffic.

[wivenhoe]

Glad to see it’s going reasonably well - charger wise. The car may feel a bit more comfortable when the tyres wear in. I think I have flat spotted mine ! 
I am still getting a minimum of 200 with the a/c on Eco and not full time. 

[ganzoom]

9 hours ago, John Adams said:

We started off in eco mode and only used the AC when absolutely necessary to stop the boss complaining. I set the cruise to 60mph throughout......

Got to the destination and the trip was saying I had done 3.1 miles/kwh which I thought was good.

Warm weather, slow speeds, 3.1 miles per kWh is awful efficiency!! Our soon to be 7 year old Model X will get close to 4 miles per kWh at 60mph with no HVAC running. At 70 miles it'll return 3 miles per kWh.

Why is the RZ so inefficient?

[wivenhoe]

We ordered and bought the RZ knowing that the range and efficiency was lower than Teslas (even 7 year old ones). I didn’t fancy waiting over 2 years for a £100k+ left hand drive Model X. 
According to independent real range reports the Model Y Long Range with heating at 70mph is 2.9 kw / mile. Similar to the RZ in my experience. 
Some Tesla fans don’t see the reasons why people buy other EV’s - build quality, having a speedo that can be read without taking eyes off the road, a HUD, service centres in convenient locations, residuals that don’t plummet because the maker overnight reduces published list by £10k. 
I’m sure you’re very happy with your 7 year old Tesla as am I with my 3 miles / kw Lexus. The Tesla I sat in had the fit and finish of my wife’s Metro 40 years ago - it may have been a one off but as it was a demo I thought it representative of the car I would be ordering. 
A recent survey in the USA (massive market for Tesla’s) found - 

Consumer Reports recently published its updated reliability report pertaining to the most unreliable electric vehicles on the market today. As has been the case in the past, the Tesla Model S and Tesla Model X are both on the top 10 list.

According to Drive Tesla Canada, Consumer Reports issued the Tesla Model S an overall score of 62 out of 100, and a two out of five for predicted reliability, which it considers less reliable than the average new car.

Apologies for the very long post but I think the merits of the RZ over the Tesla are just as valid as the critical comparisons with Teslas and other marques. 

[ganzoom]

23 hours ago, wivenhoe said:

Apologies for the very long post but I think the merits of the RZ over the Tesla are just as valid as the critical comparisons with Teslas and other marques. 

All I asked was a very simple question. Even the crazy sub 3 second to 60mph Plaid S/X seems to achieve far better efficiency than the RZ.

Normally more performance = worse efficiency. I just don't understand the reason. 

Lexus has been developing the RZ for years but the drivetrain efficiency is worse than what even Nissan had with the Leaf in 2011.

All electric motors are pretty much 95%, Battery packs should have very similar internal resistance, and aerodynamics is very well understood by everyone.

So what's Lexus getting wrong?

[wivenhoe]

Apologies if my post was a bit strong - but there are so many Tesla fans that (including most online reviewers) deride the RZ without reporting any of the good points.
From what I’ve read, Lexus are taking a more conservative approach so they can warrant the Battery for a minimum 90% at 10 years. The majority of others warrant 70% for 7 or 8 years. It’s noticeable that the updated UX with the same Battery is only warranted for 70% for 8 years and that is reported to be more efficient by having a greater range with same capacity Battery as the RZ.
Some dealers are telling customers that there is a software update coming which will significantly increase the range of the RZ. My contacts in customer service (very helpful and knowledgable guy) and the dealer haven’t heard this. In fact the dealer said on handover that the brief from Lexus was to stress the warranty and the real range. I hope that they are wrong and the range increases. 
 

[ColinBarber]

16 minutes ago, wivenhoe said:

From what I’ve read, Lexus are taking a more conservative approach so they can warrant the battery for a minimum 90% at 10 years.

They don’t warrant 90%, only 70%. They have designed it so it shouldn’t be less than 90% but you won’t get a replacement if it doesn’t match expectations. 
 

 

[John Adams]

Just another quick update. I travelled back yesterday and had a nightmare motorway trip with stop/start traffic most of the way. We also had rain for at least half the journey which obviously required wipers, lights and air con part of the time. Outside temp was around 5 deg lower than when I went down there. Overall I got a very disappointing 2.8miles/kwh. Doesn't bode well for the winter but we shall see.

[dutchie01]

14 hours ago, ganzoom said:

All I asked was a very simple question. Even the crazy sub 3 second to 60mph Plaid S/X seems to achieve far better efficiency than the RZ.

Normally more performance = worse efficiency. I just don't understand the reason. 

Lexus has been developing the RZ for years but the drivetrain efficiency is worse than what even Nissan had with the Leaf in 2011.

All electric motors are pretty much 95%, battery packs should have very similar internal resistance, and aerodynamics is very well understood by everyone.

So what's Lexus getting wrong?

Just different cars i guess. The Tesla is a ground up EV and developed as such the RZ isnt, alike the BRZ and Subaru. Then drag plays a big role with Tesla X at 0.24 and the RZ at 0.28. Charging is not comparable either as are the batteries. Also software and electric motors are not thesame so overall this makes the Tesla a more efficient package. On the other hand buildquality and interior? well thats the other way around. Exclusivity? Tesla seems to have taken over the role of BMW as you see them on every corner and the RZ is more exclusive than a Porsche. I have never driven an RZ so i cant tell from personal experience but it could well be a car that gives you that feeling youre driving something really special. Anyone?

[wivenhoe]

I totally agree - the reason there are so many different models is because there are so many different needs and preferences.
I’m not sure whether it’s the overall look or the two tone copper & black, but I have never had so much interest shown in any previous cars. In the last week, I have had someone stop and take a photo in a car park, stopped by someone in a supermarket car park to say he thought it was the best looking SUV he has seen and was going off to order one and the husband of my wife’s friend say he thought it looked fantastic. I doubt a Model Y would have had the same effect, but if I was doing 15,000 miles a year I am sure I would prefer a Tesla Long Range. 

[Whoever]

 

Yikes!

https://electrek.co/2023/07/07/lexus-offering-up-to-10000-off-first-electric-suv/?fbclid=IwAR2Dv-G3Q5YzQ39o9_jNieNVTY8gYsSB-PEtDi7AcnX5pHttsInhngfaSL4

[talaipwros]

Lexus Bolton is already selling the car on Autotrader significantly cheaper than my "guaranteed" price

[wivenhoe]

Then why not buy that one if losing the £ 500 the car is still cheaper ?  Is the Bolton one registered or just a discounted new one ? 

[talaipwros]

56 minutes ago, wivenhoe said:

Then why not buy that one if losing the £ 500 the car is still cheaper ?  Is the Bolton one registered or just a discounted new one ? 

well, I have prepaid £2000 that I was told I can claim back if I do not like the car
this is the advert and they have a Takumi as well

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202307119530131

[talaipwros]

Damn, I was about to buy a Tesla and then saw Musk asking Zuckerberg in a serious note on twitter for a " ***** length challenge " or something like that.

 

Not sure I can trust him with my money...

 

Let's see how that RZ test drive will go, should do it in the next few days 

[wivenhoe]

Talaipwros. As long as you are ok with a real range of 220 and less than 200 with a/c then you will probably enjoy the test drive. If you are looking for say 250+ with the a/c on it’s the wrong car ! 

[talaipwros]

26 minutes ago, wivenhoe said:

Talaipwros. As long as you are ok with a real range of 220 and less than 200 with a/c then you will probably enjoy the test drive. If you are looking for say 250+ with the a/c on it’s the wrong car ! 

Thanks for that, I have seen videos suggesting like 130 miles on cold weather so that's a problem. I can live with 200 miles, but not with 130 on cold weather ( the missus has severe  range anxiety,  she is almost ready to call AA any time leaf goes under 20% )

 

Also, Tesla dual motor now costs 47K, with 0%APR, zero deposit, so the price difference is just huge. 

But Musk is an idiot so we will see.

[wivenhoe]

I think you’ll find the 130 was from a review in Scandinavia with a temperature well  below -10.  
if you preheat the car (and therefore the battery) and use the radiant heaters and heated seats the range doesn’t diminish in use - not sure what you’ll start with at say -2. 

[talaipwros]

Saw it in flesh for the first time and I have to say that I am unimpressed.

The quality of materials - at least their feel - is definitely lower than the one in my RX.

OK, the bar is set high, but the two cars cost roughly the same.

 

He said that a software update brings  the range up to 285 miles, not sure what to make of this/believe it or not.

If true it is a massive gain.

Waiting for the test drive to make up my mind.

[ColinBarber]

1 hour ago, talaipwros said:

Saw it in flesh for the first time and I have to say that I am unimpressed.

The quality of materials - at least their feel - is definitely lower than the one in my RX.

OK, the bar is set high, but the two cars cost roughly the same.

I think it's slightly unfair to compare against the RX. Whilst they may be of similar cost, the drivetrain is more expensive so there is less money invested in the interior.

It also falls into the EV trap of assuming that people that want it must be eco-warriors that won't accept natural materials so the seats are synthetic, and depending on the grade recycled synthetics.

 

1 hour ago, talaipwros said:

He said that a software update brings  the range up to 285 miles, not sure what to make of this/believe it or not.

The official range or actual? The official range is 272 on 18" wheels so not much of an improvement.

[talaipwros]

5 minutes ago, ColinBarber said:

The official range or actual? The official range is 272 on 18" wheels so not much of an improvement.

He said from 245 to 285 and believed that range is realistic

[ColinBarber]

1 hour ago, talaipwros said:

He said from 245 to 285 and believed that range is realistic

The 245 figure was for 20" wheel models before the official figures came out, which increased it slightly to 252. If that moves to 285 then yes that is a substantial increase, but still an official figure rather than real world. They are reducing the top end buffer to extend the range but it means owners will experience the maximum range degrading slightly over time, but that still shouldn't drop below 90% of the as-new figure even though Lexus only provide a 70% warranty.

[talaipwros]

4 minutes ago, ColinBarber said:

They are reducing the top end buffer to extend the range but it means owners will experience the maximum range degrading slightly over time, but that still shouldn't drop below 90% of the as-new figure even though Lexus only provide a 70% warranty.

I do not believe that many owners will keep it past the 3 years PCP period , considering that in 3 years Toyota/Lexus should have their advertised new Battery technology.

There is no way that a 3 years old 30.000 miles RZ will cost £32K in 2026

 

That 10 years Battery warranty is a completely moot point

[talaipwros]

On 7/1/2023 at 6:25 AM, wivenhoe said:

Some dealers are telling customers that there is a software update coming which will significantly increase the range of the RZ.

Yeap, that's what dealer told me today, fingers crossed he knows what he is talking about.

We'll see. He knows he made a blunder with my order, (he was a bit apologetic) and  that I expect a significant discount if I am to keep the vehicle