Lexus LM see above

[DavidCM]

Isn't it hideous . I don't know about "executive transport"--it looks more like a builders van that has picked up some tinfoil debris on the motorway.All it needs is about 4 weeks worth of copies of The Sun and other assorted rubbish on the dashboard.

Should have been put down at birth.How can a company produce that and at the same time the LC?

[dutchie01]

Very popular in Asia. Its big city transport. Think all those Chinese cities with over 15 million people. Singapore, Hongkong. If you made it there you dont drive yourself as status and 24 hr trafficjam. Rich families have one of them with a chauffeur 24/24.

But yes its an aquired taste but hey if you are inside it could be pretty good travelling at 7mph average?

[Spock66]

Lexus solution to CAN bus thefts - no one would steal this ugly van....

[Linas.P]

Ohhh yeah - that thing is hideous... yet that is what we will be getting in UK next year. I really questioning Lexus market research team when they somehow reached conclusion that UK would not want RC350 or new mk3.4 IS... yet somehow they expect LM to sell?! Who is their clientele? Expat chinese millionaires? 

[DavidCM]

2 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

Very popular in Asia. Its big city transport. Think all those Chinese cities with over 15 million people. Singapore, Hongkong. 

They're welcome to it.If I wanted to drive a van all day ,out of choice,I'd get a job with the gas board and get paid for it.Otherwise, I'll waft around in a good looking car.

[DavidCM]

1 minute ago, Linas.P said:

 somehow they expect LM to sell?! Who is their clientele? Expat chinese millionaires? 

More like Bob the Builder.

...and you are absolutely right about the market research team.

[Zaros]

I was in the Toyota Alphard version of this in Tokyo last week as part of an airport transfer and I must say that they are super comfortable and very effective at what they do, especially when being driven about. Although I think I'd prefer a Kei car which look interesting but may not be suitable for my 6 ft 2 inch frame. There were also a lot of the Alphards and their variants around the city so they seem to have a purpose. I think they may not be so suitable for the UK apart from in London where some people may wish for comfort as a passenger whilst sitting in traffic.

[Linas.P]

Well... yes they are decent taxis, say comparable to London black-cabs in the way of being purpose built for it, just much much uglier. That makes sense for ~£40k Alphard... it makes much less sense for £100k Lexus LM. Lexus LM is not meant to be taxi, it is meant to be executive vehicle and we in the west have very different view on how they should look like. No dignitary wants to be seen exiting what looks like alien washing machine repairman van! 

Just let this sink in - Lexus LS500h which is truly special car costs ~£90k in UK. And it struggles to sell... I kind of see why, but in other hand LS has loads of things right about it, reliable, extremely luxurious, arguably good looking car, which by the way isn't horrible to drive if one wants to take a seat of the driver... and yet it does not sell. So Lexus plan is to bring LM 300h, the car which is as exciting to drive as London cab and looks like alien shaite that has fallen into blackhole and was twisted so violently that it turned into neutron star and then exploded... and they are planning to sell it for £100k+ (in China it is $215k, but they have 100% tax on cars, so it will be $100k in US and despite exchange rate, something like £110k british shillings). How many they planning to sell? Even in the first year if they decide to force each of their dealership to buy 1 as demo... this would make 46 cars... and that will be all LMs they will ever sell in UK.

Jokes aside I can see Japanese, Chinese, Thailand etc. embassies buying some of them, but even then embassy staff are "westernised", they know than anyone outside of eastern/southern Asia are horrified of the looks of these things, so they might buy a few to make themselves feel more at home... but outside of this very niche client base there are probably exactly 5 people in UK who would be interested. People in the west don't associate vans with luxury, actually almost irrationally we put form over function when it comes to luxury, as such this car is just not suitable for our market. 

Well unless Lexus knows something that we don't, maybe China going to invade Taiwan next year and they expecting thousands of rich Taiwanese, Chinese etc. fleeing to London? Perhaps they will prove me wrong, but I predict this to be total flop. 

And again we are talking about Lexus here... the company which literally established a design studio in California, the company which spent years trying to understand what features people like in their target market and in 1989 delivered LS400, which was literally perfectly adjusted for their target market and was instant success. How can they misjudge the market so badly now?! Or are we really failed so badly when it comes to car culture in UK than people nowadays finds it truly acceptable shape of the Luxury vehicle? 

[DavidCM]

24 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

 

 and they are planning to sell it for £100k+ 

 

That just goes to prove money doesn't buy you taste.The thing is like a rat with gold teeth.

[Linas.P]

1 minute ago, DavidCM said:

That just goes to prove money doesn't buy you taste.The thing is like a rat with gold teeth.

I think before we can conclude that this thing have to sell first... if it does sell I will be appalled and you will be right!

Apparently chinese (and few other countries in that region) don't have taste for the cars... and it isn't about being rich and spoiled, it is simply because they don't have car culture and they really only got first cars in early 90s... so whereas we in the west had 100 years to create culture, rules etc. on car design and use, they literally in their infancy when it comes to forming opinions... add some political systems in place and it really develops into the beast. Even in our "free" society we developed some wacky cars in 1920s, so imagine the result communist state has on cultural development of motoring.

[EP80]

15 minutes ago, DavidCM said:

That just goes to prove money doesn't buy you taste.The thing is like a rat with gold teeth.

I used to have a pet one of those, always saw it coming....

Personally, I love JDM Minivan's and there have been ALOT of them which we didn't get in Europe, don't quite "love" this one but I don't get the revulsion, pretty cool looking and nicer than the Alphard & Vellfire.

I must be a builder.

[dutchie01]

I like it.

Go to discoverlexus.com/models/lm/ and you will see the interior. This car is not for driving but for beeing chauffeured around in busy cities.

And regarding styling, is the RZ attractive? or the RX? Or the BMW XM for that matter?

 

[Bluemarlin]

I quite like it too, especially the interior, which I guess is what counts with that type of vehicle.

Obviously it's not a mass market vehicle, but in London and other cities you see plenty of Mercedes luxury minivans taxiing people around, and so I imagine it's to compete with that. I can see it being used as VIP transport.

Not a family vehicle to take the kids to school or football practice in, but I can understand why Lexus would want to have something in the executive travel space, as minivans seem to be getting more popular than limousines. I can picture it as the kind of thing you'd see politicians and other dignitaries arriving in, in films and tv shows.

[Linas.P]

3 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

This car is not for driving but for beeing chauffeured around in busy cities.

And regarding styling, is the RZ attractive? or the RX? Or the BMW XM for that matter?

That is clear, but for the same price would you rather be chauffeured in LS (that is western style executive car) or LM? I know which one it would be and it wouldn't be LM.

As well BMW got a lot of slack for their new ugly cars, but I would rather be in any of them or RZ/RX than in this thing. Honestly XM is beauty contest winner if LM deserves to be called a car. 

15 hours ago, EP80 said:

Personally, I love JDM Minivan's and there have been ALOT of them which we didn't get in Europe, don't quite "love" this one but I don't get the revulsion, pretty cool looking and nicer than the Alphard & Vellfire.

Revulsion is not about Japanese MPVs, I do find them ugly, but I do not hate them because I kind of understand where they coming from. It is basically taking place of SUV, before the SUVs were the fashion, so basically family in japan would own MPV to take their kids around and go shopping... like a basic practical car to take family from A to B. Obviously, times have changed and MPVs were all but replaced by SUVs which are better in any objective way... and I do hate SUVs, but at the same time I do think that SUV is an upgrade over MPV.

So revulsion is not about just MPVs, but about idea that MPV ca be luxurious and that it could be replacement for limousine/executive transport. I just do not find these two concepts compatible. MPV is meant to be cheap and practical, if it happens to be ugly... well so be it. Nobody goes on farm and says "this tractor is ugly"... it does it's job, leave it alone. But when you want something luxurious the looks becomes important. And by the way I don't just think Japanese MPVs are ugly, remember MB R-Class - Hideous! BMW 5GT is similar concept, again - hideous...

8 minutes ago, Bluemarlin said:

Mercedes luxury minivans taxiing people around, and so I imagine it's to compete with that. I can see it being used as VIP transport.

That is exactly what they saying i.e. competitor with V-Class.... problem is V-Class is nice looking Passenger Van, I have no issues with it, it's has it's purpose and it can be luxurious and it is fine. Basically if you have 1-2 important people to carry around, then you get S-Class, but you if you have let's say 3, 4 or 5 then you get V-Class van. It is almost like a "tour-bus" just smaller. But if you only planning to carry 2 passengers then why get van, just get S-Class or equivalent... So Lexus LM is this sort of sub-class of Van... it is not even real Van... 

This looks good, that how luxury van should look like:

To explain how bad it looks one needs to imagine MB making Luxury version of Vaneo/Citan:

And again - Merc already tried it, they had R-Class and it was universally hated and considered ugliest car ever made (and as result MB no longer makes it and probably tries to forget they ever did):

[dutchie01]

It will be a success provided it is expensive enough. Its about the interior and the price. Needs to be easily recognizable which it is with that grille and has to be seen as a symbol of success ( in certain circles)

I honestly would not be surprised it it will work..

[Las Palmas]

20 hours ago, DavidCM said:

That just goes to prove money doesn't buy you taste.The thing is like a rat with gold teeth.

Neither brain power nor taste can be bought with money. You either have or will never get.

[DavidCM]

5 hours ago, Bluemarlin said:

pace, as minivans seem to be getting more popular than limousines. I can picture it as the kind of thing you'd see politicians and other dignitaries arriving in, in films and tv shows.

Do you mean the type of people who hire stretched limousines?

[Bluemarlin]

5 minutes ago, DavidCM said:

Do you mean the type of people who hire stretched limousines?

To some extent yes, as in recent years luxury minivans seem to be becoming more popular than stretch limos.  Obviously no good for groups of people, but then stretch limos aren't very practical for just one or two.

Not everyone's thing, but I can see it appealing to some. Either way, I can see why Lexus would want a vehicle in that market sector.

[Zaros]

I agree with Linas about the BMW 5GT, it is a truly ugly car, but if you're driving  it, you're not having to look at it (although I'd be deflated walking up to it)!

I'm not convinced looks have much to do with this sort of vehicle unless its a private purchase, maybe it should be viewd more as a commercial vehicle. The client is looking for something that'll take them and their luggage somewhere in comfort, that's why they've paid a premium over using an uber. The driver wants something that they can use all day. The owner of the vehicle wants it to earn money therefore it needs to be reliable  and in use as much as possible. There'll be people who want the kudos of a premium brand badge (Mercedes?) but as with any vehicle which has to earn its living (such as a delivery van) it'll be down to reliability and satisfying client expectations at the end of the day.

When using these vehicles I never saw the front, I give my luggage to the driver at the rear of the vehicle and then sit in the car via the sliding door which is already opened, if I wasn't so interested in the vehicle I wouldn't have noticed what it was and what it looked like form the front. Maybe its better to view this as a commercial vehicle and not something that the 'man on the street' is likely to purchase.

[Linas.P]

59 minutes ago, Zaros said:

I'm not convinced looks have much to do with this sort of vehicle unless its a private purchase, maybe it should be viewd more as a commercial vehicle. The client is looking for something that'll take them and their luggage somewhere in comfort, that's why they've paid a premium over using an uber. The driver wants something that they can use all day. The owner of the vehicle wants it to earn money therefore it needs to be reliable  and in use as much as possible. There'll be people who want the kudos of a premium brand badge (Mercedes?) but as with any vehicle which has to earn its living (such as a delivery van) it'll be down to reliability and satisfying client expectations at the end of the day.

I do get it is not car one will buy for themselves to drive, but considering the price I just can't see it appealing to "executive taxis either", buying S-Class or even E-Class will always be better purchase in this segment. People will pay extra for being driven around in Merc,  but they won't pay extra for micro-Van, at least not in UK. So despite getting where you coming from I think everything has to change around how we look at the cars... people in UK have to start viewing this as being equal to S-Class and that is simply isn't the case and car like Lexus LM is unlikely to change it.

As well I would note that environment/setting matters... if I go to China and one of these would pull-up to pick me-up I would be rather happy, because of different customs, different country, exotics of experience etc. Knowing that locally they have high regard for such cars would be bonus as well... But UK isn't China and all the things which makes LM acceptable there makes it unacceptable here. 

Again I may be proven wrong, but seems Lexus again is entering the market with sub-par car and aims for the class above themselves. They did that with ES... comparing to BMW 5-Series and MB E-Class, which competed poorly, except of the lowest end of those classes and now they going against V-Class despite being way smaller and more niche (LM is 40cm shorter and has like 60cm less interior room, yet they find it somehow comparable).  

This is how it looks to scale (5390mm for V-Class, 5270mm for R-Class and 5,030mm for Lexus LM, even then 100mm of that is just angry grille):

[Bluemarlin]

12 hours ago, Linas.P said:

I do get it is not car one will buy for themselves to drive, but considering the price I just can't see it appealing to "executive taxis either", buying S-Class or even E-Class will always be better purchase in this segment. People will pay extra for being driven around in Merc,  but they won't pay extra for micro-Van, at least not in UK. So despite getting where you coming from I think everything has to change around how we look at the cars... people in UK have to start viewing this as being equal to S-Class and that is simply isn't the case and car like Lexus LM is unlikely to change it.

 

I'm not sure why people would view it like an S class. The trend for executive/luxury transport seems to be moving away from saloons towards SUVs and minivans, and I believe the LM has 4 and 7 seat options, which you don't get with a saloon. From a passenger comfort point of view it's much nicer stepping into a vehicle than bending down.

There's also plenty of Chinese money, and Middle Eastern, in the UK, who could afford it, and so with business and maybe embassy sales, it may be enough. Let's face it, it's not something you'd expect huge sales of, in any market.

I agree with you that the average UK consumer might see it just as van, compared to an S class being a luxury saloon, but I'm not sure its intended passengers will see it that way.

[dutchie01]

 

[dutchie01]

As it is designed to roll around in urban environments i only have one question. WHY is this not electric? Why again is the 300H drivetrain installed? Surely if passenger comfort is what they are after electric is the way to go?

BTW i do find the exterior styling horrible but that could be me.

[Linas.P]

2 hours ago, Bluemarlin said:

I'm not sure why people would view it like an S class. The trend for executive/luxury transport seems to be moving away from saloons towards SUVs and minivans, and I believe the LM has 4 and 7 seat options, which you don't get with a saloon. From a passenger comfort point of view it's much nicer stepping into a vehicle than bending down.

There's also plenty of Chinese money, and Middle Eastern, in the UK, who could afford it, and so with business and maybe embassy sales, it may be enough. Let's face it, it's not something you'd expect huge sales of, in any market.

That is what 4 seat version suppose to compete with (S-Class). Remember 4 seat means only 2 passengers (as per picture below). And as for 6 sear version (4 passengers) it is simply too small - that is why V-Class exists and it can have 4 seat option in the back where they are all extremely luxurious. 6-seat LM would feel just like any 3-row MPV - kind of cramped (look at rear seats... they maybe ok for "servants").

Compare that to what you could get in V-Class because it is much larger:

Not sure about Chinese Money in UK, but Middle-East are very sensitive about the appearance and will not be seen getting out of the van... even local Chinese understands that nobody appreciates it in UK. Remember - being driven around in limousine is as much about outward appearance as much as it is about comfort. They project their "success"... LM just doesn't work this way in UK. 

They do have massive sales in Southern/Eastern Asia, even thought competition - S-Class sells like 80k in China and LM is quite close 67k, so not exactly "cannot be expected to sale in large number", I think Lexus is bringing it here only because they do expect large number of sales. Check out Kia as well - I think they get luxury right in their Carnival 4 seat version. 

I think it will remains to be seen if this thing will sell... after all that is the only metrics which matters, regardless of what we think about it. 

[Bluemarlin]

To be fair Linas, isn't that V class interior pic of the custom, armour plated model, at around half a million? 🙂

You might be right though, so I'll heed your warnings and hold off on my order for now   🙂