Lexus Dealer Quality - A Natural Decline?

[therealrjp]

On 4/13/2023 at 12:29 PM, Linas.P said:

I agree with you for the most part. However, I believe there is more to it than just the age of the brand. When Lexus first launched, they had a fresh perspective on customer service and aimed to provide a luxury experience that matched their cars and brand image. As the brand matured, they no longer had to work as hard to explain what their brand was about. At the same time, both Lexus cars and their clientele have changed. In the past, Lexus customers were looking for the ultimate luxury experience. Now, many customers are simply looking for a practical vehicle to transport their families. They compare Lexus to other brands based on factors such as the number of ISOfix points, charger points, and boot capacity. These customers are less concerned with the brand or how the car drives and more focused on the monthly cost of owning a vehicle. As an established brand, Lexus already attracts these customers to their dealerships. The level of service they receive may not be a significant factor in their ultimate purchase decision. Many buyers already know what they need from a car and have their own unique criteria for making a decision. For example, I know someone who only buys cars with a rear wiper - that is her main requirement.

In short, Lexus has become more mainstream and their models and clientele reflect this change. Putting on a show with champagne would likely be a waste of money.

Secondly, I think it’s important to distinguish between the sales and service departments at Lexus. In my experience, the sales department has mostly been good, with a few exceptions that may have been due to miscommunication between Lexus UK and local dealers. Overall, Lexus sales staff are still much better than those at other established luxury brands like Mercedes-Benz or BMW. They may not have extensive knowledge about the cars, but they are generally very friendly. I believe this is partly because most Lexus dealerships are not as busy as those of other brands and their sales staff have to work harder to make a sale. In contrast, sales staff at BMW or Mercedes-Benz dealerships may not care as much because if one customer doesn’t buy a car, the next one will.

But when it comes to Lexus service department my experience has been mostly negative and I would even say subpar. There are many reasons for this. For example, Lexus cars are known for their reliability, so most service appointments are routine and don’t provide much opportunity for profit. As a result, customers may be seen as more of a liability than an asset. Additionally, many dealerships are part of larger networks and their service staff may not care whether they are working on a Hyundai or a Lexus. While sales staff may receive brand-specific training and attend events, service staff likely only need to pass basic competency tests to prove they can follow repair manuals and turn nuts. The one exception was when I needed warranty repair and the dealership was eager to claim £4200 from Lexus GB’s warranty to complete it.

In summary, while Lexus sales are still better than the competition in my experience, because being nice for them is directly linked to their bonuses, but their service has been outright unpleasant, because there is nothing to be gained from being pleasant. 

Final thing - it matters what you drive and why you there. When I bought new IS250 they were treating me rather well, giving nice courtesy cars, calling me to the events etc. When I later bought old IS250 suddenly they started forgetting to book courtesy car, tagging pointless repairs on it etc. Then again when I had 2 years old RC - they are suddenly nice again, given LC as courtesy car etc. And same goes with sale staff - if you enquiring about used car with low profit margin, then you will speak with some apprentice office assistant who knows less about the car then you do, but if you enquiring about lease on LC, then suddenly you greeted by Sales Director of the dealership. Prep of the car follows the same rules - if they delivering new one, then they will make sure it is spotless, but if you bought used one and negotiated the price to the last penny, then you will be taking bus to the dealership and it will stand in the corner somewhere. 

 

 

Your points about service staff couldn’t be further away from my experience and they are the primary reason I’m now driving my 5th Lexus in 10 years. They have always been friendly, proactive and, in my experience, extremely knowledgeable. The service staff, along with other members of the team, have greeted me by name every time I’ve been in and always made me feel that they’re genuinely happy to have me there, even when I’m likely one of their most difficult to please customers. 
 

I have bought cars from others dealerships in the London area as well (Woodford, Maidstone and Twickenham) but Edgware Road have always been several clear steps ahead. 

[Linas.P]

6 hours ago, therealrjp said:

Your points about service staff couldn’t be further away from my experience and they are the primary reason I’m now driving my 5th Lexus in 10 years. They have always been friendly, proactive and, in my experience, extremely knowledgeable. The service staff, along with other members of the team, have greeted me by name every time I’ve been in and always made me feel that they’re genuinely happy to have me there, even when I’m likely one of their most difficult to please customers. 
 

I have bought cars from others dealerships in the London area as well (Woodford, Maidstone and Twickenham) but Edgware Road have always been several clear steps ahead. 

I found that depending on the car I had I was treated differently... 160k+ 10 years old IS250 - I was treated like trash. 2 years old RC200t - treated decently, I would not say exceptionally, but great service overall. In other country I had brand new IS250 back in the day and was treated like a king.

All in all, found Lexus service not exceptional, but it was good value for money, especially when they had "Essential Care", sadly almost every time they messed something-up forgotten something or there was some issue, not with service itself, but as I have said - forgetting to book courtesy car and similar. 

[Gary H]

I must say the service department of my local dealer is very good indeed - almost the complete opposite of the sales side. 

I’ve used them three times and barring forgetting to reset the oil change indicator on my last service (which I must admit did annoy me but managed to reset it myself the following day), I can’t say I’ve had any issues. They’ve been perfectly polite and very much efficient. I will certainly give credit where credit is due.

[LenT]

11 hours ago, Gary H said:

They’ve been perfectly polite and very much efficient. I will certainly give credit where credit is due.

I’m sure they will appreciate a mention.  It might even encourage the Sales side to up their game.

Which brings me to another thought about Lexus Dealers.  I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, but I’m not aware of Lexus Dealers publicly contributing to relevant posts on this site.

If I felt that unfair criticism was being directed at my company or employees, I would want to defend my reputation.  Or take the opportunity to apologise for an uncharacteristic lapse!

After all, that’s one of the more entertaining aspects of TripAdvisor when reading hotel and restaurant reviews!

Is there some contractual reason involving Lexus itself that keeps Dealers off this site - even to contributing technical advice?

[Phil xxkr]

2 hours ago, LenT said:

I’m sure they will appreciate a mention.  It might even encourage the Sales side to up their game.

Which brings me to another thought about Lexus Dealers.  I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, but I’m not aware of Lexus Dealers publicly contributing to relevant posts on this site.

If I felt that unfair criticism was being directed at my company or employees, I would want to defend my reputation.  Or take the opportunity to apologise for an uncharacteristic lapse!

After all, that’s one of the more entertaining aspects of TripAdvisor when reading hotel and restaurant reviews!

Is there some contractual reason involving Lexus itself that keeps Dealers off this site - even to contributing technical advice?

You make an excellent observation Len. I contacted my dealer regarding the 450 canbus plate saying that it's attracted a lot of chatter on this forum. Intriguingly they had no knowledge of the part and said that they will contact Lexus UK? 

This lack of interaction with a user forum is diametrically opposed to my Jaguar club where JLR are actively involved thereby adding brand value without expensive s****y Marketing Gurus!

But that leads onto different points - what is the point of a user forum? Shouldn't the manufacturer be fronting this up? Fundamentally are they adverse to criticism? Or, are they above it all? Once the product is out of the door is that the end of their job and is now the dealers responsibility ie the middle man? And we all know where middle men are going 🤔

 

[Phil xxkr]

Just now, Phil xxkr said:

You make an excellent observation Len. I contacted my dealer regarding the 450 canbus plate saying that it's attracted a lot of chatter on this forum. Intriguingly they had no knowledge of the part and said that they will contact Lexus UK? 

This lack of interaction with a user forum is diametrically opposed to my Jaguar club where JLR are actively involved thereby adding brand value without expensive s****y Marketing Gurus!

But that leads onto different points - what is the point of a user forum? Shouldn't the manufacturer be fronting this up? Fundamentally are they adverse to criticism? Or, are they above it all? Once the product is out of the door is that the end of their job and is now the dealers responsibility ie the middle man? And we all know where middle men are going 🤔

 

S****Y? Think of words like affectation, posh, swagger, glitzy 

[dutchie01]

Too much credit given to most dealers i think. They see their job as selling something thats it. Could be fridges or shoes but in this case its cars. I honestly cannot recall one person in my 30 years of buying new cars that had much interest in the automotive landscape. The job stops at five. Needless to say i am not impressed by the overall commercial knowledge of car dealers. 

[ColinBarber]

On 8/5/2023 at 7:51 AM, LenT said:

Is there some contractual reason involving Lexus itself that keeps Dealers off this site - even to contributing technical advice?

The forums have no advertising or soliciting terms and conditions and a company needs to be authorised before participating but there is nothing stopping a Lexus dealer from doing so. There have been two or three that have been active here in the past.

On 8/5/2023 at 10:28 AM, Phil xxkr said:

But that leads onto different points - what is the point of a user forum? Shouldn't the manufacturer be fronting this up?

I don't see why. I've been a member of a dozen owners clubs over the years, representing a number of different manufacturers and they have all been independent - and all the better for it.

 

On 8/5/2023 at 10:49 AM, dutchie01 said:

I honestly cannot recall one person in my 30 years of buying new cars that had much interest in the automotive landscape. The job stops at five. Needless to say i am not impressed by the overall commercial knowledge of car dealers. 

I can count 1 - which is a pretty poor percentage of the overall number of car salespeople I've dealt with. But they are probably better at their job of hitting sales targets by not being so.

[Spock66]

Lexus do have their own forums, but I agree independent is better.

I doubt the RX Can Bus issue would have had the same focus on a Lexus managed forum.

[LenT]

4 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

Too much credit given to most dealers i think. They see their job as selling something thats it. Could be fridges or shoes but in this case its cars. I honestly cannot recall one person in my 30 years of buying new cars that had much interest in the automotive landscape. The job stops at five. Needless to say i am not impressed by the overall commercial knowledge of car dealers. 

While I’ll not dispute your personal experience, Bernard, my first reaction was that perhaps this was a slightly jaundiced view?  Apart from the financial commitment involved, there’s surely for most buyers a different level of emotional involvement between owning a fridge and a car - and effective selling would recognise that.

I walk past our fridge and freezer several times a day, but would be pushed to pick them out of a crowd.  Where as only once have I been momentarily confused in a car park - and that was because the only other car in it was an identical white Lexus IS250 parked next to mine!

When I have occasion to visit Lexus MK, I’m greeted by the Sales staff and they will detail the many benefits of a new model.  They certainly strike me as knowledgeable, although admittedly that’s a very low bar indeed!

On the other hand, to support your view, I recall going in to a Ford Showroom to look at a Ford Probe Coupe with a view to purchase.  It was deserted apart from the girl on Reception.  I asked if there was someone who’d like to talk to me about the Probe.  After a quick phone call, she said “He’s just finishing his cup of tea.  He’ll be up soon.”

I told her that I didn’t want him to rush his tea and I was fairly sure there was another Ford Dealer not far away.  Now that Salesman probably did stop at five!

Indeed, at what point did he actually start?

[dutchie01]

Are you not aware of hyper expensive designerfridges in black or red?? The smegs of the world. Or the american fridges big enough to host a family( well propably not an american family..)

its not easy to be a dealer i know. You need to have the hyperexpensive building, the suits the staff have to sell the x  number of cars or no end of year bonus. On top maintenance intervals are getting longer manufacturers want to go direct over the internet and all thats left is a maintenance hub on comissionbasis. Large dealers buy smaller ones and its cost cutting everywhere just to survive. Just not a healthy business environment. However, that does not excuse a sub par attitude as far as i am concerned. If you dont know the details of the car you are selling, if you are not interested in long term relationships. Are blatantly arrogant and full of yourself. I can go on and on. I really think dealers will disappear and the village garage and the true specialists will survive. Volvo announced to go full internet only in the UK. Ford will restructure the network and will go comission only and Tesla? Well the propably started all this

 

 

 
 

[LenT]

2 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

Are you not aware of hyper expensive designerfridges in black or red??

Yes indeed.  But sadly our taste in domestic appliances - even smegwise - tends more towards the bland!  😊

The scenario you describe does indeed seem to have a depressing inevitability about it.  Much of it, as you say, is already with us.  

The need to train and maintain a sales force for the most popular makes does seem to be being replaced by a self-selection process of building your own car - which can then be ordered over the internet and delivered for a trial period.  All a Dealer really needs to provide are the Service Hubs you describe.

I wonder if this is being accelerated by what appears to me to be a loss of individuality between brands - or marques as we used to call them. The stylistic and technological differences appear to be diminishing, thus reducing the degree of sales knowledge and ability required to influence a customer towards a specific make.

Ultimately, car buyers may well get sales teams that are closer to Order Clerks than informed advisors. And maybe that will suit them best.

[Spacewagon52]

9 hours ago, ColinBarber said:

I can count 1 - which is a pretty poor percentage of the overall number of car salespeople I'd dealt with. But they are probably better at their job of hitting sales targets by not being so.

I had the interesting experience of going with my elderly (but switched-on) neighbour to buy a car. It was a two year old Mazda CX5. I had an interesting conversation with the youmg salesman. I asked him if he was passionate about what he was selling (Mazda). His answer was, "Not really, it is just a matter of financial margins. I am not bothered what I sell."

My own experience at Lexus Canterbury was the opposite. I felt the person I was dealing with was genuinely trying to find us the right car. Pampering? BS? I don't care, it felt good and I bought a car! (not the one I originally went to see).

Could it be that most of us on the forum are of the older age group and therefore have a view influenced by past experiences?

We want to have a good relationship with a dealer that is going to service our car - I am probably being naive and nowadays it makes no difference.

[LenT]

3 hours ago, Spacewagon52 said:

Could it be that most of us on the forum are of the older age group and therefore have a view influenced by past experiences?

We want to have a good relationship with a dealer that is going to service our car - I am probably being naive and nowadays it makes no difference.

I think you’re correct in that there’s a generational factor involved.  

We older buyers probably regard developing a good long term relationship with a Dealer as being preferable to shopping around for small, short term gains.  And the best Dealers recognise that.

Younger buyers, on the other hand, for social and/or financial reasons, have little time for such niceties or the vague concept of loyalty.

Equally, it may be that the new breed of salespeople are less inclined to spend time cultivating such customer relationships - especially if they’re constantly pressured to deliver to sales targets or lose their jobs.

Of course, car sales has always had that image.  But now that buyers can elect to avoid real salespeople completely, it must be an even more challenging way to make a living.

[dutchie01]

Old vs young. So true. I would always call to speak to someone. My son or daughter? Forget it all on internet. Then there is another issue the true meaning of owning a car is different they really dont care and if there would be a goog alternative they would go for it. Just look at the success of Lynk & Co. Only available on subscription pay per month and uou can cancel per month. All over the place those cars in Holland. Volvo last year had 28% of global sales internet based. So, what is the role of the dealer. Would you buy a car through the internet? No salespeople fixed price etc? I would.

[ColinBarber]

25 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

Volvo last year had 28% of global sales internet based. So, what is the role of the dealer. Would you buy a car through the internet? No salespeople fixed price etc? I would.

The issue is Lexus and most other manufacturers don't have a fixed price so you can negotiate with the dealer an extra discount that you cannot get via the Internet. They would need to move to a model like Tesla where there are no dealer discounts so you know the price you are paying is fair and the same as others. I'd certainly buy via the internet to avoid the salesperson upsell and the 'let me speak with my manager' shenanigans which everyone is put through. 

[serbarry]

My first ever experience with Lexus Cork has not been positive: even though I had booked the mileage service 2 months in advance and I had made clear that I needed a loan car, the day before the service, I made several phone calls and sent 2 emails to get the number plate of the loan car in order to transfer my insurance. The person who was supposed to take care of me was not there or was busy and even though the receptionist promised that he would call me back, he never did. They just ignored me. I was really disappointed: you can't charge 800 euros for a major service and ignore the customer for a simple thing as the loan car. When I showed up at the dealer to drop my car, magically the loan car was available but I refused it as I didn't want to pay 15 euros a day for their insurance. So I asked my wife to collect me from the dealer and to drop me the day after to collect my car. A few days after a lady from the dealer called me asking if I was happy with the service received and politely but firmly I explained to her how I had been ignored and consequently disappointed. I must admit that the following 2 experiences with Lexus Cork have been positive. They made sure long in advance that the loan car would be available even if in one of these 2 occasions they messed up with the model and gave me the wrong number plate. Fortunately I had not yet transferred my insurance when they advised me so there was no issue. Overall apart from the first time, everything was fine after.

[Rabbers]

On 8/5/2023 at 12:26 PM, ColinBarber said:

… [owner’s clubs] have all been independent - and all the better for it. …

 

On 8/5/2023 at 1:04 PM, Spock66 said:

 … independent is better.

I have always assumed that Lexus’ marketing and technical support people do not participate in independent forums because it is the company’s policy not to do so.  And although the policy may not extend to dealerships, perhaps because of enforcement difficulties, the latter are probably informally encouraged to follow it.  Not, I imagine, that the majority of dealers disagree and haven’t already instructed their staff accordingly.

Independent forums are not a controllable medium and are, as such, anathema to anyone responsible for promoting and protecting a company’s interests and reputation.  I sometimes find it difficult, as a follower and occasional contributor to the LOC, to quickly and confidently distinguish legitimate opinion-based argument from sterile forms of argumentativeness, correct information from incorrect information or (heaven forbid) wilful misinformation, and legitimate complaints from generic rants.  Lexus, were it to actively participate, would need to address and evaluate these and other issues before responding or risk alienating unquantifiable numbers of people by not doing so.

[Spacewagon52]

 I sometimes find it difficult, as a follower and occasional contributor to the LOC, to quickly and confidently distinguish legitimate opinion-based argument from sterile forms of argumentativeness, correct information from incorrect information or (heaven forbid) wilful misinformation, and legitimate complaints from generic rants.

I think, Renato, you are going to get this on any forum. The LOC is far better than many I have used in the past. The moderators are keen to try and prevent this. Some feel they are too quick to jump in. However, if posts breach T&C guidlines, then there is not excuse. 

We must accept that people on the forum will have different opinions, some of them entrenched. I am pleased when debate gets heated that moderators step in to defuse / end a situation developing.

Here on the LOC, we are far more civilised than other car forums!

[dutchie01]

I think you are correct Renato. Lexus or a dealer will enter a forest of potential horror if they would participate. Lexus hq will have a marketing strategy and budget and then dealer x takes a different position or places a silly sentence that could lead to headlines in the press ( canbus issue for instance).

[Spock66]

Agreed, it would not make sense for Lexus to directly participate in the Forum, but I do hope they are lurkers and take note of some of the discussions.

[Rabbers]

1 hour ago, Spacewagon52 said:

Here on the LOC, we are far more civilised than other car forums!

Very true, and in itself a highly positive contribution to Lexus’s image without the company’s involvement …“LEXUS.  THE CIVILIZED PERSON’S CAR”.

[fourbanks]

1 hour ago, Spock66 said:

Agreed, it would not make sense for Lexus to directly participate in the Forum, but I do hope they are lurkers and take note of some of the discussions.

i have managements ear and that's about it. No one from Lexus at director level or above know nothing about the forum 

[dutchie01]

1 hour ago, Rabbers said:

Very true, and in itself a highly positive contribution to Lexus’s image without the company’s involvement …“LEXUS.  THE CIVILIZED PERSON’S CAR”.

Wasnt that SAAB?

[Rabbers]

3 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

Wasnt that SAAB?

If it was they were wrong!