Hydrogen fuel rollout.

Las Palmas · June 14, 2023

Safra shows off its hydrogen coach at UITP Summit 2023

By BERT WATSON https://www.hydrogenfuelnews.com/author/22writersareamazing22/

The coach has been equipped with an H2-PACK kit.

Safra, a French company that specializes in the renovation of passenger transport equipment and a pioneer in hydrogen mobility, presented a hydrogen coach at the recent UITP Summit that took place in Barcelona last week. The hydrogen retrofitted coach features the company’s H2-PACK kit, which has been designed to convert a combustion-powered intercity coach into a zero-emission vehicle.

The H2-PACK retrofit kit is fully designed and assembled by Safra.

The retrofit kit allows the vehicle’s diesel engine to be transformed into a zero-emission hydrogen-electric powertrain. The original diesel engine is replaced by a 350 kW Dana electric motor that receives power from a 100 kW (70 kW useful) Plastic Omnium fuel cell.

According to Safra, the H2 used by the hydrogen coach is stored in six tanks, which have been integrated into an area of the vehicle that is separated from the passengers by a watertight, ventilated and secure partition. The tanks allow for 35 kg of hydrogen to be carried on board, delivering a maximum range of 500 km.

The hydrogen coach presented at the event belongs to the Occitanie Region.

This is France’s second-largest region by surface area, and it has commissioned Safra with retrofitting 15 of its intercity coaches.

Hydrogen Coach H2-PACK – D-1 to the opening of the UITP Global Public Transport Summit – Image Credit: Safra

The H2-PACK retrofit offers a number of advantages, but most notably offers economic and ecological benefits. For instance, the cost of converting an existing bus or coach into a zero-emission vehicle is much cheaper than buying a brand new vehicle. Additionally, certain on-board components can remain without needing to be reinstalled, such as ticketing equipment, also saving on cost.

As for being eco-friendly, the retrofit extends the life of the vehicle, postponing the need for a replacement by several years. Finally, as a hydrogen coach, the same vehicle is able to circulate in LEZ (Low Emissions Zones), which was not possible before.

Safra Hycity.

Beyond its H2-Pack Retrofit kit, Safra has also manufactured a full-hydrogen bus called the Hycity. So far, about twenty vehicles have been ordered, and the company is continuing to expand its facilities to ramp up production and meet the growing demand from customers eager to establish hydrogen ecosystems.

flotsam · June 15, 2023

Here's a thought!

What if your hydrogen fuel cell car comes with a 13 amp socket and hydrogen is cheaper than your electricity tariff?

Malc1 · June 15, 2023

5 minutes ago, flotsam said:

What if

cups of tea and coffee and bacon and eggs " on the go " methinks ...... as you pull up alongside your favourite'ish loch on a fine spring day touring Scotland 🤩

Malc

Las Palmas · June 15, 2023

56 minutes ago, flotsam said:

Here's a thought!

What if your hydrogen fuel cell car comes with a 13 amp socket and hydrogen is cheaper than your electricity tariff?

What if : https://www.nafion.com/en/applications/fuel-cells

Japan has before proved more efficient and forward looking than UK. They built better and cheaper ships and won that business. What if they once again are ahead: https://www.hydrogenfuelnews.com/hydrogen-fuel-japan-invest/8559141/?awt_a=1jpsU&awt_l=IFzTR&awt_m=gLnNgxVNku5DlsU

Result will be seen and we do not have to wait forever.

https://www.nafion.com/en/applications/fuel-cells?utm_medium=ad-static-banner&utm_source=hydrogen+fuel+news&utm_campaign=2023-q2-nafion-hydrogen-economy&utm_content=daily+enews+banner+600x400+h2e+fuelcells&utm_term=eng-june-learnmore

Steve_S · June 15, 2023

I find it very unlikely that green hydrogen will prove to be significantly cheaper in terms of cost per mile for fuelling a transport fleet than direct charging of BEVs. Water may be abundant as a source for green hydrogen but it is abundant for a reason. Hydrogen and Oxygen form strong bonds and it takes considerable energy to split them via electrolysis. Many easily accessible sources show that it would take more bulk energy generation capacity to fuel your fleet via green hydrogen than direct charging of an equivalent number of BEVs, not less.

Less well known is that fact that hydrogen released into the atmosphere can indirectly lead to elevated levels of methane which is a far more potent greenhouse gas than CO2. This may not be a showstopper but it is likely that the industry will need to improve its gas leakage standards above current levels otherwise the gain from using green hydrogen will be offset by this effect. This will add to the costs.

There may indeed be a useage case for green hydrogen in transport. Time will tell. But don't assume that fuel costs will be a factor. Meanwhile, Toyota are clearly hedging their bets.

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/toyota-market-next-gen-battery-evs-2026-built-by-new-ev-unit-2023-06-13/

dutchie01 · June 15, 2023

https://thedriven.io/2023/06/13/time-to-go-electric-toyota-faces-shareholder-revolt-and-calls-for-board-shakeup/

Toyota has promised the solid state Battery for years but never delivered. On top of that they completely missed the boat in BEV development. Major shareholders are now stepping in and demand a new board and Toyoda to step down all together.

The announcement from Toyota they are going all in in BEV development weeks after they announced Batteries are not the way to go could be seen as a move to calm investors. All in all a major marketing disaster to start with.

Steve_S · June 15, 2023

True, but their announcement also contained claims of incremental improvements in non solid state batteries which are perfectly in line with what can be expected from other Battery types in the near future so the trajectory of improvement in the industry is continuing irrespective of what Toyota claim. And even with SS there was a recent paper indicating they may have cracked one of the hurdles but I don't have that to hand at the moment.

Las Palmas · June 15, 2023

6 hours ago, Steve_S said:

I find it very unlikely that green hydrogen will prove to be significantly cheaper in terms of cost per mile for fuelling a transport fleet than direct charging of BEVs.

When made from electricity when there is more of it than can be sold it will not only be cheap (water is abundant) it will be close to cost nothing:

https://www.hydrogenfuelnews.com/hydrogen-production-angola/8559118/?awt_a=1jpsU&awt_l=IFzTR&awt_m=h4Fwdbghku5DlsU

ganzoom · June 16, 2023

15 hours ago, Steve_S said:

I find it very unlikely that green hydrogen will prove to be significantly cheaper in terms of cost per mile for fuelling a transport fleet than direct charging of BEVs. Water may be abundant as a source for green hydrogen but it is abundant for a reason. Hydrogen and Oxygen form strong bonds and it takes considerable energy to split them via electrolysis.

Basic GCSE science is no match for the BP/Shell forecourts. Producing and disturbing pure hydrogen compressed to the same pressure as water at the bottom of ocean is so easy you just wait. All those BP/Shell forecourts current selling a liquid fossil fuels that don't react unless exposed to direct heat will be able to handle hydrogen with no issues.

According to some there over 1600 hydrogen fuel stations in the UK!!!

I'm struggling to understand why no one here owns a hydrogen fuel cell car though, given how easy and freely available hydrogen forecourts are??

Malc1 · June 16, 2023

3 hours ago, ganzoom said:

According to some there over 1600 hydrogen fuel stations in the UK!!!

I'm struggling to understand why no one here owns a hydrogen fuel cell car though, given how easy and freely available hydrogen forecourts are??

Gang, where do you get this ridiculous thought process from ? It's never, to my knowledge, been stated on here for sure

OR are you jumping the gun here in anticipation of what will likely be ! 🤣

Malc

Shahpor · June 16, 2023

Despite what is reasonably being said

18 hours ago, Steve_S said:

I find it very unlikely that green hydrogen will prove to be significantly cheaper in terms of cost per mile for fuelling a transport fleet than direct charging of BEVs. Water may be abundant as a source for green hydrogen but it is abundant for a reason. Hydrogen and Oxygen form strong bonds and it takes considerable energy to split them via electrolysis. Many easily accessible sources show that it would take more bulk energy generation capacity to fuel your fleet via green hydrogen than direct charging of an equivalent number of BEVs, not less.

Less well known is that fact that hydrogen released into the atmosphere can indirectly lead to elevated levels of methane which is a far more potent greenhouse gas than CO2. This may not be a showstopper but it is likely that the industry will need to improve its gas leakage standards above current levels otherwise the gain from using green hydrogen will be offset by this effect. This will add to the costs.

There may indeed be a useage case for green hydrogen in transport. Time will tell. But don't assume that fuel costs will be a factor. Meanwhile, Toyota are clearly hedging their bets.

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/toyota-market-next-gen-battery-evs-2026-built-by-new-ev-unit-2023-06-13/

Steve, despite the sense your post makes, you will find that some hydrogen evangelists on here will just go round and around in circles claiming the same things as if what you say doesn't exist or is idiotic.

In terms of Toyota, it seems their new CEO is facing somewhat of a battle and the investors might push the company into the pure EV direction. Whilst I do applaud doing things differently - I actually ordered an Mazda RX-8 with the ****el engine back in the day - I don't think any car company can manage without following major industry trends, which sadly Toyota haven't been doing until now.

Linas.P · June 16, 2023

58 minutes ago, Shahpor said:

I don't think any car company can manage without following major industry trends

Tesla?

I am not "hydrogen evangelists", but quite clearly there are no issues with hydrogen cars, the issues are with fuel supply and distribution, which by the way as well main issue with BEV. So I think Toyota could set it's own trend if they would build their own network or set long term partnership with one of big oil companies. Now sure - we still have issue when it comes to producing clean hydrogen, could Toyota build their own NPPs to focus on only making hydrogen, could they again partner with some companies in the field... I think they could.

Point I am trying to make - it seems like when it comes to unpractical and in places outright stupid BEV trend, like outright bans of alternative vehicles despite BEVs still having loads of issues, then people somehow finds explanation for them, but when it comes to hydrogen... suddenly it is not possible.

19 hours ago, Steve_S said:

I find it very unlikely that green hydrogen will prove to be significantly cheaper in terms of cost per mile for fuelling a transport fleet than direct charging of BEVs.

I don't think the price is the issue, although it is important. The problem that many EVangelists makes statements about charging the BEVs as if it is some sort of norm, standard and accessible for everyone. No it is not - in fact majority of people cannot charge their BEVs at home and that is before widespread adoption. So at the moment the issue is that majority of people do not have access to dedicated, off-road to parking space - and this is important, for BEV charging you need such parking space, or people have parking space, but doesn't have a charger and can't install one. In future we will have issues with having the parking space and charger, but there being insufficient capacity to charge all BEVs in the network, or overall lack of electricity.

And this argument is circular as well, I don't know how many times I had to explain this in detail that we as a nation - do not generate enough peak electricity, do not have enough transmission capacity to charge all BEVs, especially in the cities (where BEVs makes most sense) we do not have where to park them and where to install the chargers. And so far we just hedging our bets on unproven technology which is not on the market to make BEVs to charge as quickly as ICE counterparts and centralise the charging... it may happen or we may have to give up driving altogether.

Malc1 · June 16, 2023

lest we forget that Toyota is a global Japanese business of very many state of the art businesses, not just cars and trucks and buses and for which their developments in both EV BEV " normal fuels " and Hydrogen power will likely thrust them to the fore, yet again, in our minds ... especially as we are usually focussed on cars with their Lexus marque

I for one have no doubt that we will see much to-ing and fro-ing at Board and Shareholders Meetings BUT as with many major world players, Toyota will take itself to the fore in much of what it does and is likely to achieve

Malc

e.g. ........ Toyota Industries develops, produces, sells and provides services for a broad range of products, from industrial vehicles centered around a full lineup of lift trucks to materials handling systems. Lift trucks, which capture the top global market share, are delivered to customers around the world under the TOYOTA, RAYMOND and CESAB brands

Shahpor · June 16, 2023

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

Tesla?

I am not "hydrogen evangelists", but quite clearly there are no issues with hydrogen cars, the issues are with fuel supply and distribution, which by the way as well main issue with BEV. So I think Toyota could set it's own trend if they would build their own network or set long term partnership with one of big oil companies. Now sure - we still have issue when it comes to producing clean hydrogen, could Toyota build their own NPPs to focus on only making hydrogen, could they again partner with some companies in the field... I think they could.

Point I am trying to make - it seems like when it comes to unpractical and in places outright stupid BEV trend, like outright bans of alternative vehicles despite BEVs still having loads of issues, then people somehow finds explanation for them, but when it comes to hydrogen... suddenly it is not possible.

Probably a poor choice of words on my part.

You are right to point out Tesla, but I would consider that the exception rather than the rule. Perhaps I should have said current car companies as Tesla started from scratch in their new direction, so they didn't have as much to lose. I'm sure Toyota, as the largest car manufacturer in the world, would have a lot of pressure to maintain its sales position.

Whether that is EV or something else, at present they need to increase their EV offering in order to stay competitive. The good thing about a company the size of Toyota is that they can still pursue other avenues like hydrogen whilst producing cars like EV's for the moment. It is just that they aren't doing that, hence investors getting a little nervous.

Also, as far as the problems of both technologies, they are actually quite similar i.e. it is the infrastructure rather than the cars themselves. The main difference is that EV's are here, right now whereas hydrogen is still a way off, if it happens at all. I would also say that the opposite is also true of the acknowledging of issues in that the hurdles of producing and distributing hydrogen are often overlook as trivial and easily resolved.

Linas.P · June 16, 2023

I think many people do not realise how small is the BEV market around the world. It is certainly growing, but it is not a big market. I understand that please investors is as well important, but looking what Toyota makes and sells it becomes clear that BEVs is small fish to fry for them... at least at the moment.

They can easily let other companies to sort out the kinks and then come in with superior model to take over the market. Obviously there are always business risks.

3 minutes ago, Shahpor said:

Also, as far as the problems of both technologies, they are actually quite similar i.e. it is the infrastructure rather than the cars themselves.

I do not fully agree... yes main problem is infrastructure for both. But BEVs are extremely dirty as a car itself as well. 60-80k miles just to break-even on pollution and about 30% saving on 100k lifetime in pollution compared with ICEV on mixed energy grid. I mean they are simply not the "clean miracle" they are advertised to be. Sure that to some point applies to hydrogen - car is very clean, but we simply don't have "clean" hydrogen at all. Relevant comparison would be charging BEV with exclusively coal power stations. Which by the way is exactly the case in many "developing" countries like India and China... they increasing they BEV fleet, but their energy is very dirty... on top of cars themselves not being that clean to build either.

Now sure that is "average", there are areas where BEVs are significantly better than ICEVs, especially certain types e.g. city driving. But that is the whole another topic of how it is horribly prioritised to specifically promote the particular use which is most beneficial. Battery Electric is great for small, short range city cars - horrible for long rage, large intercity cars.

Las Palmas · June 16, 2023

Why we need to talk about clean or green hydrogen so much is hypocritical. It is coming, but not in a day or two.

Talk a bit about how clean or green the electricity in the grid is made. In Germany more than half electricity is made using coal, lignite and fossil fuel, and in UK it is not really green either.

Meaning that 100k lifetime of a Battery car, that is made very polluting will be filled with a large percentage of unclean electricity. So, as it is today, and probably also tomorrow, Battery powered cars will never become technology that is helping reducing pollution.

Those claiming otherwise are either not knowing what they talk about or plainly do not want to look at how much they are actually damaging the world they supposedly are trying to help buying the battery-powered cars. Meaning they are selfishly only getting as much out of governments subsidies as possible without caring the least about how much they are really damaging.

Shahpor · June 16, 2023

9 hours ago, Las Palmas said:

Why we need to talk about clean or green hydrogen so much is hypocritical. It is coming, but not in a day or two.

Talk a bit about how clean or green the electricity in the grid is made. In Germany more than half electricity is made using coal, lignite and fossil fuel, and in UK it is not really green either.

Meaning that 100k lifetime of a battery car, that is made very polluting will be filled with a large percentage of unclean electricity. So, as it is today, and probably also tomorrow, battery powered cars will never become technology that is helping reducing pollution.

Those claiming otherwise are either not knowing what they talk about or plainly do not want to look at how much they are actually damaging the world they supposedly are trying to help buying the battery-powered cars. Meaning they are selfishly only getting as much out of governments subsidies as possible without caring the least about how much they are really damaging.

So it is ok to talk about environmental damage that is occurring now but not what might be coming in the near future? 🙄 The hypocrisy of the first sentence is almost beyond comical.

Interestingly, there is also an obvious attempt to deflect the conversation back to a topic that John is more comfortable discussing..

Lastly, I feel it is unfair to lay the blame for all the environmental impact of fossil fuels on EV's as it completely negates the fact that most of the power is used by households and businesses. Do EV's contribute to the problem? Of course they do, but then so do all powered modes of transport.

flotsam · June 17, 2023

On 6/15/2023 at 9:13 AM, Malc1 said:

cups of tea and coffee and bacon and eggs " on the go " methinks ...... as you pull up alongside your favourite'ish loch on a fine spring day touring Scotland 🤩

Malc

Actually, I was thinking it would put the cat amongst the pigeons and force utility companies to offer cheaper electricity tariffs.

Malc1 · June 17, 2023

11 hours ago, Shahpor said:

the problem?

enabling people to enjoy their lives in as best a way as possible . in the UK anyway, shouldn't be seen as a " problem " but as an amazing opportunity to enhance people's lives a little more than they could without the means to travel this wondrous land of, someplaces, joy and tranquility 😇

Malc

ganzoom · June 17, 2023

23 hours ago, Las Palmas said:

Why we need to talk about clean or green hydrogen so much is hypocritical. It is coming, but not in a day or two.

Actually if you really care abou the environment you should be joining the likes of Rebllion Exctinction. We DONT need ANY NEW cars of any kind, ALL car companies are the problem not the solution. It doesn't matter what powers a car our obsession with personal 'freedom of transport' is NOT sustainable for the planet. Cars of any kind is the problem.

I accept I'm part of the problem and don't pretend to care about that like some on here. The UK is clearly warming up, my answer, we are getting Aircon installed in the house, so creating even more pollution for the planet and worsening climate change.....but at least we'll have Aircon in the house.

Don't lobby for hydrogen if you REALLY want to action on climate change, lobby for increased taxation on ALL CARS, road tax, higher corporation tax. Essentially make it so expensive to run ANY car, and force people to use other forms of transport or accept a change in life style.

Hydrogen is BP/Shell version of snake oil, its not an answer to anything.

ganzoom · June 17, 2023

13 hours ago, Shahpor said:

Lastly, I feel it is unfair to lay the blame for all the environmental impact of fossil fuels on EV's as it completely negates the fact that most of the power is used by households and businesses. Do EV's contribute to the problem? Of course they do, but then so do all powered modes of transport.

It's our lifestyles which is the cause of climate change, but how many of us are actually willing to change our lifesytles? No more holiday's, no imported foods, certainly no gadgets or new cloths/fashion. Essentially a total move away from 'consumerism'.

I for one cannot, so like the residents on Easter Island I'm content in the knowledge when the inevitable end comes I'll be long gone, and most likely anyone I know or care about. Selfish, but its the uncomfortable for the vast majority of people. We are way past little changes, but a reform in lifesytle/aspirations just isn't going to happen.

dutchie01 · June 17, 2023

On 6/16/2023 at 12:14 PM, Linas.P said:

I think many people do not realise how small is the BEV market around the world. It is certainly growing, but it is not a big market. I understand that please investors is as well important, but looking what Toyota makes and sells it becomes clear that BEVs is small fish to fry for them... at least at the moment.

I think it is more about the trend Linas. If you look at the biggest market in the world, China with some 27 million cars sold each year the figures speak for themselves. In 2022 one in four cars was BEV or plug in, and in the first months of 2023 this rose to 38%. That combined with an avalanche of new Chinese cars hitting the market that are accepted as superior to western brands has created some real unrest in the automotive world. The Japanese manufacturers all see their Chinese market disappear rapidly with an average decline of over 30%, Toyota outperforming Honda, Nissan, Mitsubishi with minus 14% marketshare. Car development takes some 4 to 8 years and the threshold everybody was aiming for, 2030, now seems outdated. The worry the Shareholders of Toyota have is that the company does not offer anything in the electric markets which as a volume manufacturer could be lethal with the current rapid transition and adaption to electric.

Malc1 · June 17, 2023

2 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

Toyota have is that the company does not offer anything in the electric markets

Am I not seeing TV adverts for the ALL ELECTRIC new Lexus

Malc

dutchie01 · June 17, 2023

Toyota currently have one model, the BZX, in Subaru speak the Alterra and Lexus the RZ, all basically thesame car albe it in different shape in the form of Lexus. It is not good enough too compete in the fiercely competitive Chinese market.

Barry14UK · June 17, 2023

15 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

Toyota currently have one model, the BZX, in Subaru speak the Alterra and Lexus the RZ, all basically thesame car albe it in different shape in the form of Lexus. It is not good enough too compete in the fiercely competitive Chinese market.

It should have been a class leader coming so late to the market but isn't. Didn't get off to a good start with the wheels coming off and production delays.