Stolen NX

[Andy B]

2 hours ago, malcolmw said:

Does the TSK mean that devices such as Carista will not work? Do you have to go to a dealer to update anything?

I have used Carista on my NX350h to change settings with no issues. 

[PDM]

2 hours ago, Hayzee said:

It's software per se but due to the fact that Lexus hasn't rolled out a s/w update to affected vehicles suggests it's a system architectural issue that can't be retrofitted to other vehicles. Hence the wheel arch plates.

Hi Colin,

It may not be possible to port the exact same implementation from brand new vehicles onto nearly new vulnerable vehicles but this does not mean a software fix is not possible.  It is clearly more work for TME/Toyota UK than making some metal plates and getting dealers to fit them and so they have gone for the low hanging fruit (RX only).  This guy (who knows more about CAN security than the vast majority (all?) of forum members thinks it can be done:

https://kentindell.github.io/2023/04/03/can-injection/

Perhaps for Toyota it is a simple cost benefit analysis... perhaps this will change over time?  Or perhaps a proper fix simply takes a long time to write and test.

Paul

[eightk]

I think Toyota’s cost benefit analysis will hit JLR levels soon.
At that point we’ll get the correct solution.

[wewillnotbefobbedoff]

PDM has found the pertinant fact.

Dr Ken Tindall ( it's his blog) seems to be the expert's expert on CAN bus and he has said a fix can be done. Toyota have been contacted by one of his collegues/acquaintainces about this, another electronics whizz who had his RAV 4 stolen and started the investigation.

Seems like Toyota are blanked his advances and don't want to know.

So Toyota/ Lexus apparently can fix it, they just cannot be bothered.

See extracts of the blog on my second long post on the general forum, canbus theft scandal topic.

This blog link may be elsewhere in other owners postings on LOC. It's complex, but worth reading. You can understand why Toyota treat convenience for themselves over vehicle security when designing vehicles. Remember they don't give a hoot about owners after the first registration of a brand new unit.

 

 

[Ken R]

Have Lexus ever confirmed that the latest (22 MY) NX isn't subject to CANBUS thefts?  There is much talk that the electric architecture is such that this is the case [particularly on the 450h] however I have yet to see any verification of this. I did enquire about fitting security plates for the NX but was told that these were unavailable.

[ColinBarber]

12 minutes ago, Ken R said:

Have Lexus ever confirmed that the latest (22 MY) NX isn't subject to CANBUS thefts?  There is much talk that the electric architecture is such that this is the case [particularly on the 450h] however I have yet to see any verification of this. I did enquire about fitting security plates for the NX but was told that these were unavailable.

Nothing official but it does seem that devices on the CAN bus need to be registered/signed to stop unauthorised devices being allowed to control systems on the latest NX, and most new models since 2021. This is essentially based on the fact that openpilot doesn't work and there is an advanced repair procedure for replacing items.

https://github.com/commaai/openpilot/wiki/Toyota-Lexus#2021-toyota-ecu-security-key-support-new-steering_lka--more

 

[Harrier Man]

2 hours ago, Ken R said:

Have Lexus ever confirmed that the latest (22 MY) NX isn't subject to CANBUS thefts?  There is much talk that the electric architecture is such that this is the case [particularly on the 450h] however I have yet to see any verification of this. I did enquire about fitting security plates for the NX but was told that these were unavailable.

I had been asking myself the same question and last night found a LSFT video released about a month ago that, whilst not definitive, strongly suggested we are okay as far as CANBUS goes. He refers a lot to the OpenPilot info that Colin references. After I watched it, I went back through many of the 'NX Stolen' threads on this forum; all those I found referred to the older model; further strengthening the argument for the latest model being more secure. I wish Lexus were more open about this (without giving the details away), it would have saved me a few sleepless nights 😉

[Ken R]

41 minutes ago, Harrier Man said:

I had been asking myself the same question and last night found a LSFT video released about a month ago that, whilst not definitive, strongly suggested we are okay as far as CANBUS goes. He refers a lot to the OpenPilot info that Colin references. After I watched it, I went back through many of the 'NX Stolen' threads on this forum; all those I found referred to the older model; further strengthening the argument for the latest model being more secure. I wish Lexus were more open about this (without giving the details away), it would have saved me a few sleepless nights 😉

Perhaps the insurance companies should take note too?!

[wewillnotbefobbedoff]

So is Lexus is wonderful again, until there is a problem down the line with post '22 models Toyota can't be bothered to deal with?

[ArneT]

On 1/16/2024 at 9:58 AM, Scotlex said:

I "think" that the current NX is OK. I believe this is why we are having to wait for a second key.

 

On 1/17/2024 at 6:41 PM, PDM said:

The plate for the RX had already been rolled out in South Africa to prevent car jacking.  It seems like it was the easiest thing just to get some more made and installed over here.

Oddly I have learned from my local Lexus dealer today that the 2016 NX (so I assume 2015-2018) is NOT affected by the CANBUS problem either (as I was requesting the steel plate fitted during my next service). The dealership said that Lexus changed the route of the wiring loom, (presumably as part of the 2018 facelift) so the wheel arch isn’t a weak spot in the pre 2018 facelift NX.

Perhaps a cheaper option to consider is to buy a 2016 cherished plate to make your vehicle look older? Anything to deter the thieves!

[PDM]

6 hours ago, ArneT said:

 

Oddly I have learned from my local Lexus dealer today that the 2016 NX (so I assume 2015-2018) is NOT affected by the CANBUS problem either (as I was requesting the steel plate fitted during my next service). The dealership said that Lexus changed the route of the wiring loom, (presumably as part of the 2018 facelift) so the wheel arch isn’t a weak spot in the pre 2018 facelift NX.

Perhaps a cheaper option to consider is to buy a 2016 cherished plate to make your vehicle look older? Anything to deter the thieves!

Very interesting.

When I asked to have the plate fitted to my wife's 2015 NX I was simply told the ECU was different and so the (RX) plates did not fit. I was not told the wiring loom was routed differently.  I would be interested in seeing if we can obtain more certainty over this.

Paul

[eightk]

16 hours ago, wewillnotbefobbedoff said:

So is Lexus is wonderful again, until there is a problem down the line with post '22 models Toyota can't be bothered to deal with?

Whether particular model years are affected or not, sh t sticks.

They need to sort the problem while they’re still trading. This is a global problem too, it’s not like it’s just the tiny UK market.

[Ken R]

What is needed is a definitive list of models and production years that have the wiring routed in such a way that they are prone to CANBUS theft. If the electrical architecture on the latest models prevents this method of theft are Faraday pouches still required?

[Tickedon]

On 1/19/2024 at 1:55 PM, Ken R said:

What is needed is a definitive list of models and production years that have the wiring routed in such a way that they are prone to CANBUS theft. If the electrical architecture on the latest models prevents this method of theft are faraday pouches still required?

The very latest NX models (from March 2023 onwards ish) have different keys that use Ultra Wide Band technology (UWB) that allows more accurate timing and thus can detect (and in theory prevent) a relay attack where thieves scan for your keys and can then open and unlock a car.

The canbus issue doesn’t involve keys at all. It allows them to plug a device into a car and unlock and start it with no access to any keys. 

A Faraday pouch/box is still required for those without UWB as even if the canbus isn’t vulnerable, you’re still at risk of a relay attack. And probably still recommended even if you do have UWB.

[Ken R]

My understanding was that the NX in its latest edition (late 2021 - present) has the rerouted wiring and therefore the CANBUS threat was reduced.  I appreciate the UWB keys were only introduced in 2023. Its simple verification of these facts that owners are seeking.

[Tickedon]

8 hours ago, Ken R said:

My understanding was that the NX in its latest edition (late 2021 - present) has the rerouted wiring and therefore the CANBUS threat was reduced.  I appreciate the UWB keys were only introduced in 2023. Its simple verification of these facts that owners are seeking.

It’s not just about rerouted wiring but use of the “Toyota Security Key” (encryption/authentication on canbus) in newer models. 
 

Manufacturers rarely comment on these things as it somewhat creates a menu for thieves to know what they can easily take…

[Mad_4u]

On 1/19/2024 at 12:39 AM, ArneT said:

 

Oddly I have learned from my local Lexus dealer today that the 2016 NX (so I assume 2015-2018) is NOT affected by the CANBUS problem either (as I was requesting the steel plate fitted during my next service). The dealership said that Lexus changed the route of the wiring loom, (presumably as part of the 2018 facelift) so the wheel arch isn’t a weak spot in the pre 2018 facelift NX.

Perhaps a cheaper option to consider is to buy a 2016 cherished plate to make your vehicle look older? Anything to deter the thieves!

That is not correct, alot of lexus NX 2014 -2017 was stolen and i have 2017 there was attempt to steal it but had 2 layers of security prevents it.

 

[ArneT]

34 minutes ago, Mad_4u said:

That is not correct, alot of lexus NX 2014 -2017 was stolen and i have 2017 there was attempt to steal it but had 2 layers of security prevents it.

 

I will happily challenge the dealer, but they ought to know what they’re talking about.

Are you sure the spate of thefts of 2014 to 2017 models weren’t due to relay thefts instead of CANBUS?

[eightk]

On 1/23/2024 at 4:25 PM, ArneT said:

I will happily challenge the dealer, but they ought to know what they’re talking about.

Are you sure the spate of thefts of 2014 to 2017 models weren’t due to relay thefts instead of CANBUS?

Challenge the dealer. Ask them to prove it. If they can’t, ask if they’ll pay for your tracker, immobiliser or ghost. Ask Lexus on social media. Ask dealers advertising Lexus for sale. The more pressure that’s applied the more likely we’ll get a solution.
If dealers don’t know, how to thieves know exactly which bumpers to wreck?

Answer : they don’t. They’ll destroy your bumper anyway.

[andrew-amazing]

Is there anyone that knows a good immobiliser system against CAN attacks ?

 

I heard about IGLA & CANBLU, are they really effective or a thief can go around them?

 

Thanks!

[WhiteHart]

16 hours ago, andrew-amazing said:

Is there anyone that knows a good immobiliser system against CAN attacks .

Hi I am happy with Autowatch’s Ghost 2. Sorry should said I am in the UK and I think some products you have mentioned I’m not in the UK. 

Edited February 4 by WhiteHart
Just to add something I forgot.

[mblackuk]

my nx300h 2021 was stolen on the 8th of jan 😞 outside our home.

Lucky I had gap insurance.

Just ordered a 450h+ PHEV and I'll put an immobiliser, they quoted me £4500 for the insurance ... gutted.

[GMB]

Thieves steal the car and then you are robbed again by the insurance company.  So sorry.😢

[Hayzee]

32 minutes ago, mblackuk said:

my nx300h 2021 was stolen on the 8th of jan 😞 outside our home.

Lucky I had gap insurance.

Just ordered a 450h+ PHEV and I'll put an immobiliser, they quoted me £4500 for the insurance ... gutted.

Wow!....do you live in central London?

[Scotlex]

1 hour ago, GMB said:

Thieves steal the car and then you are robbed again by the insurance company.  So sorry.😢

Yes, have to agree 😥😥