Car seems totally dead!!

[AdamB.]

Hi, I've come to start my ct200h this morning before going on holiday and it's totally dead. It opened so I got in and tried to start it as normal but all it does is show the engine light and make a noise like a cow! No start up or any other lights anywhere just the engine light. I've had to lock the car with the key as it won't do anything. I changed the fob Battery but still won't lock the car. Anyone had similar. Mine is an 11 plate with 150000 on the clock. 

[rayaans]

The 12V Battery will be dead

[Herbie]

+1 for the 12V Battery.

[AdamB.]

So is that just a normal car Battery? Not the hybrid one. 

[Las Palmas]

12V AGM Battery. Same as for Prius.

[rayaans]

5 hours ago, AdamB. said:

So is that just a normal car battery? Not the hybrid one. 

Yes

[Herbie]

7 hours ago, AdamB. said:

So is that just a normal car battery? Not the hybrid one. 

Ooh, now you've done it! Get yourself a nice glass of wine and settle into your favourite armchair

 

First of all, hybrids don't have a traditional starter motor or alternator, or anything that would normally be driven by a belt from the engine because the engine doesn't run all the time - imagine being halfway through a turn and you lose power steering because the engine shuts down! Instead, it's all driven electrically.

 

The 12V Battery boots up the computers and gets the car into READY mode, equivalent to switching on the ignition in a conventional car. At this point you can drive off on Battery power alone if you so wish, but these aren't electric cars and you'd only get a couple of miles (if that) before the traction (hybrid) Battery was effectively flat. When the hybrid system wants the petrol engine (ICE - Internal Combustion Engine) to run, it energises Motor/Generator 1 (MG1) and uses that to spin the ICE up to 1,000rpm before applying fuel and a spark to fire it.

 

In a standard car the 12V Battery is charged up by the alternator but we don't have one. Instead, a device called a DC/DC converter steps down the 288V from the traction Battery to about 14.5V to charge it. Other converter/inverters use the same process for other systems like the power steering which, if I remember correctly, uses 48V.

 

The aircon compressor is driven by a 500V 3-phase AC variable frequency motor and the two hybrid transaxle motors MG1 and MG2 are both 650V permanent magnet motors. Talking of the aircon compressor, if the system ever needs to be regassed, make sure that you take it to an aircon specialist (or, of course, a Lexus dealer) who knows and can deal with hybrids.

The reason for this is that, although the refrigerant gas is the same as any other car, the lubricating oil isn't. As I said above, the aircon compressor is driven by an electric motor and the motor windings are immersed in the oil for cooling purposes. Standard compressor oil is called PAG oil but it's a low dielectric oil which means that it conducts electricity and it will damage the motor windings. We need to use ND11 oil which is a high dielectric and won't damage the windings. It's been shown that as little as 1% contamination by PAG oil can, and will, cause problems. Maybe not immediately but it will. Ideally, a specialist should have a dedicated ND11 machine so that cross-contamination with PAG can't happen.

 

Still with me? You deserve more wine

 

Although it's perfectly alright to jump start a hybrid with a standard car, NEVER, EVER, do it the other way round - you may get away with it but it's not worth the risk. The 12V Battery in any car is only used for starting and then the alternator or equivalent takes over the running of the 12V systems such as lights, radio etc., etc. When jump starting, the 'donor' car should have its engine running before the 'recipient' car attempts to start. This is so that the recipient will draw on the donor alternator, not its Battery. This is all fine and dandy for a standard alternator because it can output anywhere upwards of 300A and a conventional starter motor will need every Amp of that, but our DC/DC converter can't supply anywhere near that amount and if it was asked to do so it may well expire with a very loud bang and lead to a very expensive repair.

Hope that helps a bit.

[Spacewagon52]

13 hours ago, Herbie said:

Ooh, now you've done it! Get yourself a nice glass of wine and settle into your favourite armchair

 

 

 

First of all, hybrids don't have a traditional starter motor or alternator, or anything that would normally be driven by a belt from the engine because the engine doesn't run all the time - imagine being halfway through a turn and you lose power steering because the engine shuts down! Instead, it's all driven electrically.

 

 

 

The 12V battery boots up the computers and gets the car into READY mode, equivalent to switching on the ignition in a conventional car. At this point you can drive off on battery power alone if you so wish, but these aren't electric cars and you'd only get a couple of miles (if that) before the traction (hybrid) battery was effectively flat. When the hybrid system wants the petrol engine (ICE - Internal Combustion Engine) to run, it energises Motor/Generator 1 (MG1) and uses that to spin the ICE up to 1,000rpm before applying fuel and a spark to fire it.

 

 

 

In a standard car the 12V battery is charged up by the alternator but we don't have one. Instead, a device called a DC/DC converter steps down the 288V from the traction battery to about 14.5V to charge it. Other converter/inverters use the same process for other systems like the power steering which, if I remember correctly, uses 48V.

 

 

 

The aircon compressor is driven by a 500V 3-phase AC variable frequency motor and the two hybrid transaxle motors MG1 and MG2 are both 650V permanent magnet motors. Talking of the aircon compressor, if the system ever needs to be regassed, make sure that you take it to an aircon specialist (or, of course, a Lexus dealer) who knows and can deal with hybrids.
 

 

The reason for this is that, although the refrigerant gas is the same as any other car, the lubricating oil isn't. As I said above, the aircon compressor is driven by an electric motor and the motor windings are immersed in the oil for cooling purposes. Standard compressor oil is called PAG oil but it's a low dielectric oil which means that it conducts electricity and it will damage the motor windings. We need to use ND11 oil which is a high dielectric and won't damage the windings. It's been shown that as little as 1% contamination by PAG oil can, and will, cause problems. Maybe not immediately but it will. Ideally, a specialist should have a dedicated ND11 machine so that cross-contamination with PAG can't happen.

 

 

 

Still with me? You deserve more wine

 

 

 

Although it's perfectly alright to jump start a hybrid with a standard car, NEVER, EVER, do it the other way round - you may get away with it but it's not worth the risk. The 12V battery in any car is only used for starting and then the alternator or equivalent takes over the running of the 12V systems such as lights, radio etc., etc. When jump starting, the 'donor' car should have its engine running before the 'recipient' car attempts to start. This is so that the recipient will draw on the donor alternator, not its battery. This is all fine and dandy for a standard alternator because it can output anywhere upwards of 300A and a conventional starter motor will need every Amp of that, but our DC/DC converter can't supply anywhere near that amount and if it was asked to do so it may well expire with a very loud bang and lead to a very expensive repair.

 

Hope that helps a bit.

That explanation is brilliant Herbie! And made me smile!

[Herbie]

33 minutes ago, Spacewagon52 said:

That explanation is brilliant Herbie! And made me smile!

Cheers David

[Sled Driver]

On 3/12/2023 at 7:58 PM, Herbie said:

Ooh, now you've done it! Get yourself a nice glass of wine and settle into your favourite armchair

 

 

 

First of all, hybrids don't have a traditional starter motor or alternator, or anything that would normally be driven by a belt from the engine because the engine doesn't run all the time - imagine being halfway through a turn and you lose power steering because the engine shuts down! Instead, it's all driven electrically.

 

 

 

The 12V battery boots up the computers and gets the car into READY mode, equivalent to switching on the ignition in a conventional car. At this point you can drive off on battery power alone if you so wish, but these aren't electric cars and you'd only get a couple of miles (if that) before the traction (hybrid) battery was effectively flat. When the hybrid system wants the petrol engine (ICE - Internal Combustion Engine) to run, it energises Motor/Generator 1 (MG1) and uses that to spin the ICE up to 1,000rpm before applying fuel and a spark to fire it.

 

 

 

In a standard car the 12V battery is charged up by the alternator but we don't have one. Instead, a device called a DC/DC converter steps down the 288V from the traction battery to about 14.5V to charge it. Other converter/inverters use the same process for other systems like the power steering which, if I remember correctly, uses 48V.

 

 

 

The aircon compressor is driven by a 500V 3-phase AC variable frequency motor and the two hybrid transaxle motors MG1 and MG2 are both 650V permanent magnet motors. Talking of the aircon compressor, if the system ever needs to be regassed, make sure that you take it to an aircon specialist (or, of course, a Lexus dealer) who knows and can deal with hybrids.
 

 

The reason for this is that, although the refrigerant gas is the same as any other car, the lubricating oil isn't. As I said above, the aircon compressor is driven by an electric motor and the motor windings are immersed in the oil for cooling purposes. Standard compressor oil is called PAG oil but it's a low dielectric oil which means that it conducts electricity and it will damage the motor windings. We need to use ND11 oil which is a high dielectric and won't damage the windings. It's been shown that as little as 1% contamination by PAG oil can, and will, cause problems. Maybe not immediately but it will. Ideally, a specialist should have a dedicated ND11 machine so that cross-contamination with PAG can't happen.

 

 

 

Still with me? You deserve more wine

 

 

 

Although it's perfectly alright to jump start a hybrid with a standard car, NEVER, EVER, do it the other way round - you may get away with it but it's not worth the risk. The 12V battery in any car is only used for starting and then the alternator or equivalent takes over the running of the 12V systems such as lights, radio etc., etc. When jump starting, the 'donor' car should have its engine running before the 'recipient' car attempts to start. This is so that the recipient will draw on the donor alternator, not its battery. This is all fine and dandy for a standard alternator because it can output anywhere upwards of 300A and a conventional starter motor will need every Amp of that, but our DC/DC converter can't supply anywhere near that amount and if it was asked to do so it may well expire with a very loud bang and lead to a very expensive repair.

 

Hope that helps a bit.

Nice one Herbie! Learnt a few things there for future reference especially about the aircon regas. I'm no DIY mechanic! Other than changing bulbs that's it! The rest is at my local dealership Lexus Birmingham. I'd be too apprehensive to do anything else!

Your explanation is why I think joining LOC is a must for all Lexus owners to help increase their knowledge of ownership 👍🏽

[AdamB.]

Not back from holiday yet but my father-in-law has got it going. Hoping I just left a door or boot open and it drained the Battery.