Attempted Theft of my RX450h 2020

[Sybaris]

I had to laugh at this though.

https://www.itv.com/news/calendar/2023-06-27/classic-ford-fiesta-stolen-from-heartbroken-tv-crew

[Spock66]

My suggestion would be that once wider details of the metal protection plate are available, that we all push that this should be a no cost fix included with your next service.

There may be some mileage in the sale of goods act, but this would require a class legal action.

[PDM]

15 hours ago, Sybaris said:

So if my basic understanding of electronics is correct, negative voltage means that the thieves just flip the battery around the wrong way?

CAN is a two wire bus With CAN high and CAN low signals. If no node is transmitting, both wires are at 2.5V (called a recessive state), but when transmitting the CAN high goes to around 3.5 and CAN low to 1.5 (dominant state) and the bits are transmitted by a rapid succession of dominant and recessive states - the sequence being determined by the data being sent.   In a compliant CAN network, a dominant state always overrides a recessive state due to the implementation of the CAN transceivers.  I believe from what I have read that the CAN invader can overwrite a dominant state with a recessive state (because it uses a modified transceiver that is not CAN compliant) and this causes errors when nodes try to communicate because a compliant transceiver will not read back a dominant state even though it has tried to transmit one.

Voltage is measured between two points and so if point A is positive with respect to point B, point B is negative with respect to point A.

Paul

[Sybaris]

ah ok, thanks

[DaveyBoy]

On 4/8/2023 at 10:10 AM, eightk said:

This explains how the headlight thefts are done, how simple it is, where to get the equipment to do it, and how simple it would be for manufacturers to fix it.

Mechanical deterrents that are clearly visible and/or fuel relay switches etc are the only solution. A Tracker is all very well, but by the point the tracker is of use the damage is done.

https://kentindell.github.io/2023/04/03/can-injection/

@WipeOut please read the link provided by eighuk above. This was on page 4 is this thread.

The text

"When the CAN Injector actively enables its dominant-override then it effectively blocks other CAN devices from transmitting on the bus and forces its own spoof frames to be the only ones received" onwards leads you into some products that don't work.

while ghost is not mentioned, it does state while products like it won't work. It's because they reject bad Canbus frames but this attack doesn't work like that at all.

this attack basically takes over your Canbus, using your own Canbus master controller against the car! Very smart attack.

[DaveyBoy]

@WipeOut

From the link:

 

This is the secondary purpose of the dominant-override mechanism: it is able to defeat CAN security hardware. For example, the silicon vendor NXP has product called the Stinger that is a CAN transceiver with security logic built-in that detects a spoof frame and destroys it with a CAN error.

[DaveyBoy]

I was wrong about putting the Canbus negative but instead it just drops the voltage very low. Or so it appears. You'll have to forgive as it's was a while ago I read the article. Anyway, link reapplied so read it yourself

[eightk]

6 hours ago, DaveyBoy said:

@WipeOut please read the link provided by eighuk above. This was on page 4 is this thread.

The text

"When the CAN Injector actively enables its dominant-override then it effectively blocks other CAN devices from transmitting on the bus and forces its own spoof frames to be the only ones received" onwards leads you into some products that don't work.

while ghost is not mentioned, it does state while products like it won't work. It's because they reject bad Canbus frames but this attack doesn't work like that at all.

this attack basically takes over your Canbus, using your own Canbus master controller against the car! Very smart attack.

I'm not anywhere close to understanding how this works but I too suspect Ghost will not work against a canbus attack as the attack floods the system.

Physical visible deterrent is the only cast-iron option in my non-expert opinion, at least until experts can catagorically prove a Ghost works. Even then, thief has no idea the Ghost is fitted until he's trashed your car.

I have a cat 5 tracker which also stops the car starting via a relay but it's not visible so against damage from attempted canbus theft it's useless. I'm looking at a cat 2 immobiliser as well - flashy and obvious dash LED with a touchkey to deactivate - proper old school cutting the starter and/or fuel pump and/or ecu. Makes the keyless entry concept a bit daft fishing around for the touchkey but other than a steering wheel lock and a Rottweiler I can't see any other option.

[Toyota Owner]

Someone could always email Autowatch UK to ask if the Ghost 2 has been tested against the Toyota / Lexus CAN invader theft method.

I know PFK Electronics ( Autowatch to us ) has a CAN invader device to study / backward engineer. 

There is also the optional Shadow upgrade available for the Ghost 2 which could be worth looking at as in enhancing the protection the Ghost offers. 

 

An alarm / immobiliser upgrade I feel is a better option, as soon as the theft is attempted the alarm warns the thieves the car has had a security upgrade fitted with a loud warn away sound, if they ignore it & continue the full alarm siren triggers, while the immobiliser stops the vehicle being driven away. 

 

[Sybaris]

What is the shadow upgrade?

[Johntechx]

error

 

[eightk]

19 hours ago, Toyota Owner said:

Someone could always email Autowatch UK to ask if the Ghost 2 has been tested against the Toyota / Lexus CAN invader theft method.

I’ve asked via their online form. I’ll update here when they reply.

[Toyota Owner]

18 hours ago, Sybaris said:

What is the shadow upgrade?

Its an additional unit hidden elsewhere on the vehicle with an internal relay that keeps the vehicle immobilised if the Ghost is found & removed, it also has output to activate a siren or tracking during a theft attempt. 

[Sybaris]

Hey Lexus CS.

Start using Trunk Monkey to fix the CANBUS theft issue.  Look I found you a solution.

 

[eightk]

Trunk Monkey may result in the vehicle owner being liable for prosecution in the UK I suspect. Either that or a compo claim from the thief.

[NemesisUK]

Trunk Monkey may result in prosecution for keeping a primate in unsuitable accommodation.... 😉

[taffie999]

 

 

I have found that the only way, to obtain a serious response from large corporations, after failing through normal channels, is to bombard their Facebook page with questions and factual accounts of the problem. One example is an expensive, but noisy fridge I owned. After failing to be taken seriously, I took this approach and was contacted immediately. My year old fridge was taken away and replaced with a new one. It sounds as if theft of RX450s is now common enough that several owners bombarding Lexus UK Facebook page with their experiences and with Lexus’s failure to resolve the issue is not something they would welcome. As a potential buyer, I have started the ball rolling and posted my concerns on Lexus FB page,

[taffie999]

 

 

I have posted this on another, similar post. I have found that the only way, to obtain a serious response from large corporations, after failing through normal channels, is to bombard their Facebook page with questions and factual accounts of the problem. One example is an expensive, but noisy fridge I owned. After failing to be taken seriously, I took this approach and was contacted immediately. My year old fridge was taken away and replaced with a new one. It sounds as if theft of RX450s is now common enough that several owners bombarding Lexus UK Facebook page with their concerns, experiences and concerns about Lexus’s failure to resolve the issue is not something they would welcome. I have started the ball rolling and, as a potential purchaser, have expressed my concern on Lexus FB page.

[taffie999]

I felt sick watching that, and I haven't even bought one yet. Absolute scum. I have posted this elsewhere but Lexus' inaction over this is inexcusable. I have posted this on another, similar posts but I have found that the only way, to obtain a serious response from large corporations, after failing through normal channels, is to bombard their Facebook page with questions and factual accounts of the problem. One example is an expensive, but noisy fridge I owned. After failing to be taken seriously, I took this approach and was contacted immediately. My year old fridge was taken away and replaced with a new one. It sounds as if theft of RX450s is now common enough that several owners bombarding Lexus UK Facebook page with their concerns, experiences and concerns about Lexus’s failure to resolve the issue is not something they would welcome. I have started the ball rolling and, as a potential purchaser, have expressed my concern on Lexus FB page.

[RONNIE W HODGEKINSON]

On 5/29/2023 at 1:50 PM, my pride & joy said:

I had my 2018 RX450H stolen last week - it was 3ft away from my house. I assume it was relay theft. I have MS and the car had a hoist fitted and my mobility scooter inside.

I have found a replacement and in preparation before collecting it, have ordered a Milenco steering wheel lock and Faraday pouch. Am now looking into getting a ghost immobiliser fitted. 

Anyone have any advice/recommendations please for brands/fitters? I am in Hertfordshire. 

Many thanks

Just Google Ghost immobiliser and you will get there tel number Think They go all over uk..Also check there Offers At The moment ..They also fit GPS tracker devices Ghost 2 is the latest one..Best of Luck..!!

[peniole]

45 minutes ago, taffie999 said:

 

 

I have found that the only way, to obtain a serious response from large corporations, after failing through normal channels, is to bombard their Facebook page with questions and factual accounts of the problem. One example is an expensive, but noisy fridge I owned. After failing to be taken seriously, I took this approach and was contacted immediately. My year old fridge was taken away and replaced with a new one. It sounds as if theft of RX450s is now common enough that several owners bombarding Lexus UK Facebook page with their experiences and with Lexus’s failure to resolve the issue is not something they would welcome. As a potential buyer, I have started the ball rolling and posted my concerns on Lexus FB page,

Excellent idea. Emails can be hidden away and ignored, bur bad publicity via social media isn't something they can shrug off easily.

[Sybaris]

3 hours ago, taffie999 said:

 

 

I have found that the only way, to obtain a serious response from large corporations, after failing through normal channels, is to bombard their Facebook page with questions and factual accounts of the problem. One example is an expensive, but noisy fridge I owned. After failing to be taken seriously, I took this approach and was contacted immediately. My year old fridge was taken away and replaced with a new one. It sounds as if theft of RX450s is now common enough that several owners bombarding Lexus UK Facebook page with their experiences and with Lexus’s failure to resolve the issue is not something they would welcome. As a potential buyer, I have started the ball rolling and posted my concerns on Lexus FB page,

Do you have a link to it?

[Sybaris]

Maybe there are some auditors who might like to audit some dealerships and Lexus HQ and ask why they are not taking this seriously?  all from publicly accessible land of course

[First_Lexus]

I spoke with Lexus Reading about the issue last week and the proposed fix. They claimed to know nothing about the problem or the fix (!) but promised to speak with Lexus UK and call me back. I’m still waiting…

…so I wrote to Lexus UK as well. I received the same bland “…we’re aware, all cars are vulnerable to theft blah blah blah…” response that others have had. Not very impressive.

[taffie999]

15 minutes ago, Sybaris said:

Do you have a link to it?

facebook, enter lexus uk