Germany and Italy blocks ICEV bans for 2035

[Linas.P]

3 hours ago, Malc1 said:

Gentlemen .....  reality is that COWS are the main culprit globally of pollutant emissions  ........... this is FACT and that's why the NZ Govt is taking strict emission control action .  being a leader in this field

NOW  ...  the ban on  milk consumption excesses will shortly follow .  here in the UK at least I'm predicting .  and why not  ?

Maybe the price of milk will quadruple to restrict consumption to sensible manageable levels  ...  your doorstep delivery, should you have one, will be delivered not by a polluting EV carrier but by horse and milk wagon and there will be a competition to analyse the value of the horse shiiit .  good for the roses they used to suggest !

Malc

I am however being very very serious about the NZ Gove absolute restrictions on cow output

Agriculture overall is ~14% (so indeed more than transportation), however it is not only cows and not milk in particular, meat produces more carbon per calorie... but that is besides the point.  

Point is - net-zero would mean that we all have to at very least stop eating any and ALL animal based products. Imagine what a disaster that would be, famine at very least not to mention complete destruction of agriculture... and for what little is worth I would rather stop living than stop eating meat. 

And what is next? we start eating grass and farting out methane (we already do just less)... what is proposal to deal with that - screw the plug in the buthole or pay tax? 😄

As I said this net-zero goal is directly anti-human, there is no way for human life to exist in net-zero environment... unless as I said we find the way to harness limitless power to do carbon capture. I know this is reductio ad absurdum, but not the suggestion that this needs humans to stop exiting, it is the net-zero goal itself that is absurd. Cars is just start... we still have 97%+ to go.

[Bluemarlin]

On 3/11/2023 at 5:01 PM, Linas.P said:

As you may know I always like good debate, so just to be clear was wasn't necessarily disagreeing with you eihter, but rather like yourself making an argument "from another perspective". And that is exactly what I mean by debatable - yes statements you made may be right, but they may be wrong and really it depends on perspective. Generational thing is as well very important, I am definitely in generation which didn't have very good for them... when I got my first car in UK I was already 25... I simply could not afford insurance before that (not the car, but just the insurance), I already from the start lived in environment where drivers are attacked from all sides, free parking becomes paid parking every day, free road becomes ULEZ or whatever other scheme and I think I just about managed to overtake "being priced out of owning the car" train by the time I was 25. However, entire generation growing-up now are completely priced out, this as well shows - because majority of teenagers now no longer looking to get driving license, simply because there is no realistic way for them to drive even if they had one. If not for insurance, then for simple reason of places which don't allow/welcome the cars.

Haha, I like to play devil's advocate too. Sometimes because I enjoy the debate, but sometimes because I like to challenge my own views, and have them tested by people who may well know bettter than me. If there's one thing I've learned in life, it's that I'd rather find out that I'm wrong on something, so that I can correct it, than carry on in blissful ignorance.

I can understand your perspective, as I was fortunate and came from a time when I had my first car (a hand me down) at the age of 17. Cars were relatively cheap to insure then, and to fix, and when I bought my second car at 19, another cheap one, I was lucky enough to enjoy a driving holiday across France into Italy. By the time my youthful irresponsibility resulted in enough points to start making insurance expensive my good fortune continued, as I was now in the realm of company cars. I was then able to enjoy the pleasure of new cars, free petrol, and no running costs for almost 30 years, with cars being welcomed everywhere. Happy days.

So yeah,  I get where you're coming from, and do sympathise. I'm sure the youth of today have many benefits I don't have, but in a lot of ways I don't envy them. Not only is driving prohibitive, but they can barely afford somewhere to live. I used to go to school with little more than my books and a pen in my pocket, whereas today's youth are walking around with a grands worth of technology on them. If I made a fool of myself then my friends might mock me, but today the world would see it online.

I don't know what the answer is to either energy or environmental problems, but experience tells me that those with the money and power will make the decisions, and we can only either moan about it or hope for the best. Ultimately, the  best we can do for ourselves is play the hand we're dealt, as we've little chance of shuffling the deck.

[Linas.P]

59 minutes ago, Bluemarlin said:

Haha, I like to play devil's advocate too. Sometimes because I enjoy the debate, but sometimes because I like to challenge my own views, and have them tested by people who may well know bettter than me. If there's one thing I've learned in life, it's that I'd rather find out that I'm wrong on something, so that I can correct it, than carry on in blissful ignorance.

I can understand your perspective, as I was fortunate and came from a time when I had my first car (a hand me down) at the age of 17. Cars were relatively cheap to insure then, and to fix, and when I bought my second car at 19, another cheap one, I was lucky enough to enjoy a driving holiday across France into Italy. By the time my youthful irresponsibility resulted in enough points to start making insurance expensive my good fortune continued, as I was now in the realm of company cars. I was then able to enjoy the pleasure of new cars, free petrol, and no running costs for almost 30 years, with cars being welcomed everywhere. Happy days.

So yeah,  I get where you're coming from, and do sympathise. I'm sure the youth of today have many benefits I don't have, but in a lot of ways I don't envy them. Not only is driving prohibitive, but they can barely afford somewhere to live. I used to go to school with little more than my books and a pen in my pocket, whereas today's youth are walking around with a grands worth of technology on them. If I made a fool of myself then my friends might mock me, but today the world would see it online.

I don't know what the answer is to either energy or environmental problems, but experience tells me that those with the money and power will make the decisions, and we can only either moan about it or hope for the best. Ultimately, the  best we can do for ourselves is play the hand we're dealt, as we've little chance of shuffling the deck.

My goal was exactly the same...

I agree - moaning about it won't make the difference, but I must admit it feels me better speaking about my grievances. And you right - the people with money and power will be the ones who decide.

I think bigger problem than simply taking money is that instead of just taking money, now they created this nasty environment narrative. Well... I guess they are linked, they realised that there is no way raising taxes any higher without causing revolution, so they invented the environment narrative to further the threshold of how much people can take. And I am not saying environment is not important or that pollution, or global warming is not real - what I am saying they using these things as an excuse to extract more money from us without actually doing anything really to resolve the problems. At least that is the conclusion I have arrived to.

Ideally I would like them to take the money and actually do something about environment, or if they not willing to do anything, then stop moralising and stop collecting the money. Kind of similar to the smaller issues like road tax - I don't mind VED, I don't believe anyone minds VED as long as the money collected makes the roads better. Problem is - it does not make roads better, they are the worst now then they have ever been in my experience (not very long mind you... just ~20 years). And other people say - sure, but it supports NHS and everyone wants NHS so not an issue. First of all I have never used NHS and I likely never will, I have no GP and I never needed GP and if I ever going to need medical protection I have private healthcare and as for others and funding NHS... I feel there are better sources of revenue for that, alcohol and cigarettes are already taxed, so maybe it is time to tax junk food and sugary drinks more, at least unlike the roads there is direct link between health problems and those things (50% of health issues by 2030 will be obesity related). Anyway - that is a bit of the tangent, but the point I am trying to make - taxation is not a problem as long as it goes to right places... it doesn't sadly and on top of that now it is apparently our fault, hence the grievances. 

[dutchie01]

Now, who would have thought?

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/germany-forms-alliance-against-phase-out-internal-combustion-engines-by-2035-2023-03-13/

 

[Mincey]

2 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

Now, who would have thought?

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/germany-forms-alliance-against-phase-out-internal-combustion-engines-by-2035-2023-03-13/

 

Good. It's about time that common sense prevailed against knee-jerk reactions.

[Malc1]

3 hours ago, Mincey said:

It's about time that common sense prevailed against knee-jerk reactions.

and the proven culprits of CO2 emissions, being cows, can be properly addressed going forward

Malc

[Mincey]

4 hours ago, Malc1 said:

and the proven culprits of CO2 emissions, being cows, can be properly addressed going forward

Malc

Absolutely. I could not have put it better myself.

[Mr Vlad]

Leave those cows alone lol. They are neutral where CO2 is concerned as they live on the best absorber/convertor of CO2 and that's grass. Grass is much better than trees.

[Malc1]

2 minutes ago, Mr Vlad said:

Grass is much better than trees.

so the local clearance of the amazon Rain Forest is now quite ok to put to grassland  for cattle ............ .  and cows too ?

Malc

[Mr Vlad]

From what I saw on a TV programme yes Malc. I was rather surprised. 

[Malc1]

12 minutes ago, Mr Vlad said:

I was rather surprised. 

I think I'd want Attenborough's opinion on that before we all go gung-ho and stripping down all the woodlands to bring in more cows ..  and sheep ?

Malc

[Cotswold Pete]

Coming back to this post, I think it is all irrelevant because the state of the roads is really getting to be like your average banana republic that we will all either need Land Rovers or Walking boots to get about.

It does make me mad that 15 years of UK government austerity has made all of the roads I use to get work so naff, that cars dodge and dive like mad, and any poor cyclist is taking their life in their hands, so what the heck have the people in power been wasting VED on. 

Maybe that is the master plan, let the roads fall apart then we will all be wearing clogs to trudge 'off tut mill' (that was closed down many decades ago)

 

[Mr_Groundhog]

27 minutes ago, Cotswold Pete said:

Coming back to this post, I think it is all irrelevant because the state of the roads is really getting to be like your average banana republic that we will all either need Land Rovers or Walking boots to get about.

It does make me mad that 15 years of UK government austerity has made all of the roads I use to get work so naff, that cars dodge and dive like mad, and any poor cyclist is taking their life in their hands, so what the heck have the people in power been wasting VED on. 

Maybe that is the master plan, let the roads fall apart then we will all be wearing clogs to trudge 'off tut mill' (that was closed down many decades ago)

 

Thank you. I sometimes feel like I'm going crazy because everyone seems to ignore the elephant in the room. I find it stressful that I can't pay full attention to my driving because I have to keep dodging massive potholes.

When you visit other countries with similar challenges (France, for instance) you see how their infrastructure is light years ahead and their roads decent. They pay for highways? Yes but even smaller roads are a LOT better.

The state of UK's infrastructure is embarrassing and there is NO EXCUSE. They must be waiting for "the market" to "self regulate" and solve it, while the tax money is channeled to fund all sorts of sleaze.

Also, garbage by the road: it deeply saddens me to drive around Kent and see heaps of plastic and garbage EVERYWHERE along the roads. People don't seem to care and it's sad. 😔

[Bluemarlin]

3 hours ago, Mr Vlad said:

Leave those cows alone lol. They are neutral where CO2 is concerned as they live on the best absorber/convertor of CO2 and that's grass. Grass is much better than trees.

Yes, but those damn cows eat the grass.

Don't get me started on whales though, those climate destroyers eat plankton, which absorbs about a third of the CO2 we produce.  Save the whale has a lot to answer for 🙂

[Malc1]

2 hours ago, Mr_Groundhog said:

the elephant in the room

I'm understanding these eat huge amounts of vegetation .  what does that do for the climate then ?  and those tusky tusks .  wot use are they these days ?

Elephants roaming around Hyde Park would be a revelation methinks ..  and strip out all those trees in Hyde Park and bring in more grass for the elephants to freely roam eh !

Malc

[Mr_Groundhog]

I haven't read the whole thread, just some posts diagonally, but what i can tell you folks is..... you can joke or curse all you want about the net zero agenda, and the ecological measures taken by governments and individuals (extinction rebellion, stop oil movement, etc).... at worst, they are mostly wrong anyway because they don't actually solve the problem, and at best, they're greenwashing.

I agree measures should be taken, but I think the system (the socio-economic system in our part of the world) would not be able to take them, and it would rather take us and the planet along to its grave, before it would change its ways.
It's good to recycle and reduce emssions, but it won't save us. Or your children. Because it isn't enough.

We saw that during the pandemic for instance: we reduced spending and buying stuff, and quickly the pundits were on TV saying "have them go back to work, even if some die". This system has poisoned every corner of the planet in the last decades, because shareholder value was the only metric.

Truth is, some things will have to change. Cheap energy is running out.
Sadly, it may mean nasty changes in lifestyle for the many..... but don't they're going to tax Yachts or private jets.... (heck did you know caviar and hellicopters are VAT exempt?)

Some mirages of our time were always ludicrous, like bringing apples all the way from new zealand. But some other things will be affecting us all, like massive increases in the price of basic food, with crops and harvests getting less plentiful, and whole regions of the planet made unliveable (because of "our system' constant demand for new markets and higher profits). Millions and millions of people will face the choice "simple" between seeing their children and themselves starve, or pack a few blankets, leave their whole life behind and move their families into the unknown, to a place where heat and thirst won't kill you. For others in small islands, their land will be swalloed by the sea. 

And then it will be us, the ones who consumed goods at a rate way above our share, who would criminalise them, and call them "invaders", while we wallow like crybabies because we can't keep flooring our V8s. 

There is a pretty cool analogy for those who dismiss the +2 degrees increase: the planet's average temperature is 18 degrees. Yours is 37.5 degrees. An increase of +2 on the planet is the equivalent of +4 degrees in your body: How do you feel when your fever is 41.5 degrees? You're probably not feeling too well. 

Enjoy the current state of affairs folks because it won't get better. Say no to hatred and bigotry. Say no to divide & rule from those above (poor immigrants VS poor locals to keep people distracted while the sleaze runs amok in Parliament).... be kind, try to understand your neighbour and engage in constructive conversations. Be patient, nice and understanding to others...give them the benefit of the doubt...... because we may see the end of all this and it won't be pretty.
So make the most of the good things.

 

[Mincey]

7 hours ago, Cotswold Pete said:

Coming back to this post, I think it is all irrelevant because the state of the roads is really getting to be like your average banana republic that we will all either need Land Rovers or Walking boots to get about.

 

This morning I travelled from Peterborough to Spalding along the A16. Not the most pleasant or interesting of roads at any time, but this morning Waze was constantly warning me of potholes ahead. The road is dreadful. It was just as bad coming home.  

[Linas.P]

1 hour ago, Mr_Groundhog said:

We saw that during the pandemic for instance: we reduced spending and buying stuff, and quickly the pundits were on TV saying "have them go back to work, even if some die".

This baffled me as well... everyone worked from home, everything was done, project even delivered early. During first lock down when people actually still gave a shaite the pollution dropped by like 40%... but then suddenly "eat out to help out", let's go back to the offices and help economy... wait a second... didn't we wanted to save environment? Isn't the commuting just to sit in front of different (or in my case.. literally the same) screen is really worth 2 wasted hours and a lot of pollution? 

I literally said that to my previous manager - so you removed company cars, company parking, you keep promoting cycling etc. and greenwashing BS "delete old emails, because 100 e-mails = 2g of Co2" then you want to protect environment, but when you suddenly have reduction of 40% when people work from home... you suddenly don't like that?!

As for temperature... I am not denying it is increasing, but this planet had all sorts of temperatures, colder and hotter and planet honestly doesn't give a shaite. Changing temperature indeed will impact some crops and some areas and some people, but the change is gradual enough for us to adapt. It will have various impacts, some good and some not so good, but it is far from end of the world some are predicting, not even close to be fair. 

I do agree that all what is being done now is mostly greenwashing, including ICEV bans and likely we won't achieve anything anyway... how could we when we not addressing like 90%+ of the problem? And that is why I am not planning to surrender even last little joy I have revving my engine, because frankly it does not matter when our entire economic model is unsustainable. Why it is unsustainable? Because it is based on exponential increase in GDP as if resources are infinite, but they are finite and therefore the whole model of perpetual growth is fundamentally unsustainable.

As I said before there are some solution for our issue, like nuclear fusion, but short of that I see all other measures kind of pointless. Why should I sacrifice finite number of years I have left in my life and suffer if it is in vane? Yet the elites continues to fly private, buy yachts, fly VAT except helicopters and eat tax exempt caviar. And by the way - they create these fake virtues like "caring what will happen to future generations"... in fact it is not natural for people to care what happens after their death, maybe some immediate aftermath, like having a will and dividing your estate to your kids and family you care about and love... but beyond that... I honestly doubt anyone truly cares what happens. I know people claim they do - "future generations and the planet etc. etc."... but generally speaking I would say I only trust the actions and never just words... and actions do not indicate any realistic care about anything. Again - if I needed to make minor adjustments of what I do and it is not a matter of being worse off, just a matter of doing things differently and that something truly helps future generations... then why not, I will do it, I don't want to deliberately ruin the planet for them (despite our predecessors really not doing it for us)... but if we talking about major inconvenience (and BEVs and veganism sounds exactly like one) and no certainty it will help (or rather it being outright obvious it won't)... then sorry I unsubscribe from this plan. When government going to find actually realistic plan which minimises inconvenience then I will be sure to follow it, but for now it is just bunch of shaite. 

8 hours ago, Cotswold Pete said:

It does make me mad that 15 years of UK government austerity has made all of the roads 

Generally agree, but I just wanted to point out that it has NOTHING to do with austerity. It is simply matter of prioritisation... Austerity policy has ended with Cameron leaving... that was 2016... 5 years later has anything changed? No... they not only not fixing the roads, they continue to destroy them. Like honestly - when was the last time you looked at some roadworks and thought to yourself "ohh nice, they finally improving this bit"? I can answer for myself - NEVER... if they ever do anything to the roads it is for worse, there were 3 lanes, now there is 2, there were 2 lanes, now it is 1.... there was tunnel going both ways, not one side of the tunnel is converted into cycling super highway BS... there was normal motorway now you have Shaitesmart one with gazillion cameras, so that at night when you are the only one on the road for miles they can fine you for doing 60MPH on 70MPH motorway because of some ghost roadworks which aren't even happening. So the issue is not austerity, not lack of money, but deliberate policy of making roads unusable and cars unattractive mode of transportation. And honestly it does not matter who you vote for... Tories were doing it for many years and if you get Labour in they only going to be even worse. If there is any policy both ruling parties agrees on is that roads should be ruined... 

[Mr_Groundhog]

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

Generally agree, but I just wanted to point out that it has NOTHING to do with austerity

Austerity didn't "end". Services never recovered... the budgets of the pre-cameron years never returned back to where they were. All things public are cut down to the bone and beyond already. From infrastructure investment to public libraries or schools... The austerity model became a new standard, a new "common sense".

But infrastructure does age..... the so-called austerity and public disinvestment is the hallmark of a lazy and incompetent government that can't be bothered doing much for the people who foot their bill. Voting tactically can make a difference. Thinking "they're all the same" plays into the hands of those who don't care and it is fundamentally an anti-democratic way of thinking.

And yes, ghost roadworks everywhere. Try driving from Maidstone to Ashford: it's like 25 miles of highway "roadworks" where nothing ever happens with a strictly enforced 50 mph limit.

[Linas.P]

23 minutes ago, Mr_Groundhog said:

Austerity didn't "end". Services never recovered... the budgets of the pre-cameron years never returned back to where they were. All things public are cut down to the bone and beyond already. From infrastructure investment to public libraries or schools... The austerity model became a new standard, a new "common sense".

But infrastructure does age..... the so-called austerity and public disinvestment is the hallmark of a lazy and incompetent government that can't be bothered doing much for the people who foot their bill. Voting tactically can make a difference. Thinking "they're all the same" plays into the hands of those who don't care and it is fundamentally an anti-democratic way of thinking.

And yes, ghost roadworks everywhere. Try driving from Maidstone to Ashford: it's like 25 miles of highway "roadworks" where nothing ever happens with a strictly enforced 50 mph limit.

Ok... what I mean is that continuing incompetence is not strictly an "austerity policy". As I said I generally agree that roads and to be honest everything else is not becoming better, but it is more of issue of corruption, laziness, incompetence etc. than it is a well thought out policy. At least austerity had a clear and measurable goal (that was reducing budget deficit), nowadays we are increasing deficit, yet we still don't spend anything on any core areas of economy. 

Saying it is anti-democratic thinking kind of implies that we live in democracy, which I am sorry to say but we are not. And I do agree that the "western way of governing" is still the best way that human race ever had, but it is kind of far from being actually democratic, or even representative-democracy. I personally would describe UK system as parliamentary-dictatorship (also known as elective or executive dictatorship) and it is very evident, simply said our supposed "representatives" do not represent shaite - they get elected and then they dictate what they want to do, not what they were elected to represent. Let's now look at the tactical voting... okey... what is out goal? to bring down Tories? Sure that may work and what is next? Get Labour in? What is going to change? We going to have another 15 years of the same shaite and then we do some tactical voting and bring Liberals in... and what that achieves? Tories and Labour already woke enough. My point is - it is not about ruling party, they issue is more fundamental, our system is rotten from it's core, there are no checks and balances, the elected "representatives" faces no consequences for lying, no consequences for corruption, even outright crimes. They are literally above the law... okey maybe they not going to get away with murder or rape, but apart of most extreme crimes they can get away with pretty much anything else. Most importantly for democratic system - they can promise things and never deliver and with first past the post they still getting back into power, despite not delivering anything and usually only based on maybe two topical issues of the day... which they still don't resolve. Simply said - there are no consequences for anything, so why do we expect them to do right thing?! Basically I am saying it is naive to believe they are there to represent anyone but themselves and their own interests... it is called "politics" for a reason - nothing good ever comes out of it. 

[Malc1]

14 hours ago, Linas.P said:

when was the last time you looked at some roadworks

yesterday locally  The previous day there were traffic lights ushering the Qs of vehicles past a host of barriers BUT looking at nowt going on .  as is often the case around here 

Then yesterday a huddle of at least 20 persons discussing and finger pointing at whatever and Qs and Qs of traffic negotiating those sodding traffic light controls 

An hour or so later and venturing back past them all and WOW    ..  GONE  .  the guys actually working with the barriers just on the grass verge edge and their works trucks parked up on that same grass verge 

AND  ZERO  Qs of traffic, sense prevailed and the roadworks guys actually managed to do their works without restricting the traffic

NOW  why can't they do that more often one wonders !

Malc

[toffee_pie]

The roads in England are shocking, period. I've travelled over much of the SE of England and they are a disgrace, you would need a tank to navigate Southampton and the coastal cities in the south. They are awash with money from cruise ships and can't be axed to do anything, neither can any council in any other district.

I told my brother in Ireland about the state of the roads as he is planning a visit and he was surprised, the main cities in Ireland aren't in this state of disrepair, so what is going on.. where is my £630 VED going?! 

I've been to Cambodia and they have had better roads, Thailand far better.

[Malc1]

9 hours ago, toffee_pie said:

the main cities in Ireland aren't in this state of disrepair, so what is going on..

what's going on is buckets and buckets of EU cash dumped into Eire for sure, the roads are just so IMMACULATE  .............  unlike us poor relations in the UK who have, in the past, had to fork out to achieve for Eire that which it now so admirably enjoys ........  well done Eire ........... .  wonder what the roads will be like in 25 years time without the UK contribution with all that extra money ( not !!! ) being spent on our UK roads and pothole remedy eh !  

Malc

pop this one in the Conspiracy Theory post if you wish  🤣

[toffee_pie]

56 minutes ago, Malc1 said:

what's going on is buckets and buckets of EU cash dumped into Eire for sure, the roads are just so IMMACULATE  .............  unlike us poor relations in the UK who have, in the past, had to fork out to achieve for Eire that which it now so admirably enjoys ........  well done Eire ........... .  wonder what the roads will be like in 25 years time without the UK contribution with all that extra money ( not !!! ) being spent on our UK roads and pothole remedy eh !  

Malc

pop this one in the Conspiracy Theory post if you wish  🤣

Well no, it's not a conspiracy it's factual. Ireland has had funding from EEC schemes to make many of the motorways in the country, unlike England they weren't made in the 60s and 70s.. many were only done in the 90s and after.

They probably use more schemes for the upkeep of roads who knows 

 

 

[Malc1]

2 minutes ago, toffee_pie said:

They probably use more schemes for the upkeep of roads who knows 

Aw c'mon on now  .......  let's put together some sort of Conspiracy Theory about that then  ..............  🤣

Malc