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[royoftherovers]

Ask the expert: Toyota said I need to do 7,000 miles a year for the warranty to apply – is this right?

As the Telegraph’s motoring expert, I weigh in on your car dilemmas to save you money and make your driving life easier

ALEX ROBBINS13 February 2023 • 3:00pm

 

Like most manufacturers, Toyota doesn’t cover the 12-volt Battery by default under its warranty

Dear Alex,

My 2021 Toyota C-HR suffered three breakdowns due to the 12-volt Battery going flat. The first two times, the RAC condemned the Battery, but the Toyota dealer insisted it did not need replacing. The final time, the dealer agreed the Battery was shot, but wanted to charge £145 to replace it, saying the warranty didn’t apply as my mileage was too low (2,300, partly due to the pandemic), and that I needed to do 7,000 miles a year for the warranty to apply. 

I refused, and threatened publicity, after which the dealer agreed to replace the Battery as a goodwill gesture, but I was told I still needed to do 7,000 miles a year for the warranty to apply. I was not aware of this warranty stipulation – can Toyota do this?

– AM

Dear AM,

The worrying thing is the dealer’s assertion that owners had to do a minimum mileage for the warranty to apply. I was sure that Toyota made no such stipulation in its warranty terms, but I asked a company spokesman just to check. He said: “Should a failure occur then this would be addressed under the manufacturer warranty (provided it had cover) and if a manufacturing defect was found, it would be covered under these terms. 

There is no mileage limitation in respect of batteries for the warranty terms to apply; if a part is deemed faulty with a manufacturing defect it is replaced.”

That settles that. However, it is fair to point out that like most manufacturers Toyota doesn’t cover the 12-volt Battery by default under its warranty; it is considered a service item. I would still have hoped that the dealer would agree that a Battery that died only a year after the car was produced would be considered defective, irrespective of whether it was covered under the warranty. 

And in the end, in this case, the dealer did the right thing. It’s just a shame they got there via a set of rather spurious assertions about the warranty cover. I can’t imagine why you were given such flagrantly erroneous information, unless it was some misguided effort to avoid having to make a payout. 

[Bluemarlin]

As the article states, the 12v Battery isn''t covered by the warranty by default, which is fairly standard. I can see why that's the case as a Battery left idle for long periods will discharge and degrade, and doesn't mean the Battery itself is faulty.

The dealer probably handled it poorly by clinging to a mileage claim instead of highlighting how lack of use can affect a Battery, but ultimately did right by the customer, so the article seems a little overly alarmist to me.

[Illogan]

30 minutes ago, Bluemarlin said:

As the article states, the 12v battery isn''t covered by the warranty by default, which is fairly standard. I can see why that's the case as a battery left idle for long periods will discharge and degrade, and doesn't mean the battery itself is faulty.

The dealer probably handled it poorly by clinging to a mileage claim instead of highlighting how lack of use can affect a battery, but ultimately did right by the customer, so the article seems a little overly alarmist to me.

I agree with your synopsis, Bill.  The dealer certainly handled it badly, and arguably deserved some criticism for that, but the driver's publicity of the situation, via the meedja, (a common enough trend these days) deserves a similar criticism, for the simple reason that batteries are not a warrantable item, (subject to manufacturing faults (etc)).

 

[Las Palmas]

56 minutes ago, Bluemarlin said:

As the article states, the 12v battery isn''t covered by the warranty by default, which is fairly standard. I can see why that's the case as a battery left idle for long periods will discharge and degrade, and doesn't mean the battery itself is faulty.

The dealer probably handled it poorly by clinging to a mileage claim instead of highlighting how lack of use can affect a battery, but ultimately did right by the customer, so the article seems a little overly alarmist to me.

When you buy a car (hybrid or not) you are not at all told that you have to drive it regularly.

I was never told that.

Is such a thing common knowledge? Do not think so.

If a Battery is not lasting at least the 2 years most things are warranted without any special information needed the 12V Battery should be replaced if faulty for whichever reason and that without any salesperson trying to avoid the expenses by saying things that are not mentioned when buying the car.

[LenT]

7 minutes ago, Las Palmas said:

When you buy a car (hybrid or not) you are not at all told that you have to drive it regularly.

I was never told that.

Is such a thing common knowledge? Do not think so.

I think you’ve identified the problem here, John.

A salesperson is hardly likely to introduce a negative note when selling the car - even presuming that it’s something they’re aware of themselves.

And most buyers might well presume that everything on a new car is simply going to …well, work!

The pity is that the RAC engineer(s) didn’t spot the connection between flat Battery and extremely low mileage.  After all, they do sell their own brand of trickle charger!

At least this article may have raised awareness about the potential problem.  And even educated the odd Dealer!

[rich1068]

30 minutes ago, LenT said:

 

A salesperson is hardly likely to introduce a negative note when selling the car - even presuming that it’s something they’re aware of themselves.

 

Quite. Look how many low mileage/low speed potential customers are suckered into buying a diesel over a petrol because all they see is 60mpg vs 40mpg or whatever. Then they can't understand why the dash lights up like a Christmas tree after a few months.

[Herbie]

This has been addressed many, many times but the problem is, it's a design fault rather than a 'genuine warrantable/fixable' fault, and the only way to address it is for the dealers to point it out.

Even the very best of car manufacturers cannot beat, or even bend, the laws of physics and this is the perfect example of the old addage 'Information is power'.

Toyota/Lexus made a conscious decision to use small 12V batteries and it's hardly rocket science to realise that a small Battery can't hold as much charge, and will deplete whatever charge it has, quicker than a larger Battery.

There is just no getting away from that fact.

 

[royoftherovers]

The exact situation described in the Article happened with us a few years ago with my wife`s Mazda 2.

I requested a new Battery under the 3 year Mazda Warranty and was refused due to the low mileage covered. I went sort of Ballistic and requested chapter and verse within the Warranty Exclusions which of course the Mazda Dealer could not produce. Fortunately my practice of trying to  develop and maintain good and effective personal relationships with the Service Staff came into play and having reminded them of something they already knew,but had forgotten (my wife`s Cancer Operation and Recovery) had prevented her from driving, they looked upon the matter in a completely different light.

There is much that Dealers can do to inform Customers of matters which they may not like,but there is much that  much that Customers can do to develop and maintain good and effective Relationships with Dealers.

[wharfhouse]

IMHO the dealer handled the situation badly - they should have just been honest - the guy killed his own 12V Battery - people need to take responsibility for their cars. All cars will drain the 12V Battery if not used regularly, some quicker than others. We should all know this through common sense - surely it doesn't need be stated when buying a car - how many more things in that case should we be told NOT to do with a car that can cause damage or failure?

Only doing 2,300 miles per annum in any modern car (and it doesn't say how long the car was sat doing no miles per month - that 2,300 miles could have been just a few trips in the whole year) is just asking for trouble unless some preventative measure is put in place. People want more and more electronic gizmos in the cars that in some cases these have to be fed some power continually - where do people think that is coming from?

In my own family, my daughter left a 11 year old Fiesta for an extended period due to not using the car. The (Bosch) Battery was only a couple of years old and was fully charged when the car was parked up. Guess what, it was flat when she went to start the car. Did we complain - of course not - it was obvious the chances are it would be flat so she had what was needed on standby and all was sorted painlessly.

 

 

[wharfhouse]

13 minutes ago, royoftherovers said:

The exact situation described in the Article happened with us a few years ago with my wife`s Mazda 2.

I requested a new Battery under the 3 year Mazda Warranty and was refused due to the low mileage covered. I went sort of Ballistic and requested chapter and verse within the Warranty Exclusions which of course the Mazda Dealer could not produce. Fortunately my practice of trying to  develop and maintain good and effective personal relationships with the Service Staff came into play and having reminded them of something they already knew,but had forgotten (my wife`s Cancer Operation and Recovery) had prevented her from driving, they looked upon the matter in a completely different light.

There is much that Dealers can do to inform Customers of matters which they may not like,but there is much that  much that Customers can do to develop and maintain good and effective Relationships with Dealers.

Agreed - although my comment above may be a bit scathing, having a face-to-face civil conversation with the dealer may bring an amicable agreement.

[Herbie]

9 minutes ago, wharfhouse said:

IMHO the dealer handled the situation badly - they should have just been honest - the guy killed his own 12V battery - people need to take responsibility for their cars. All cars will drain the 12V battery if not used regularly, some quicker than others. We should all know this through common sense - surely it doesn't need be stated when buying a car - how many more things in that case should we be told NOT to do with a car that can cause damage or failure?

[LenT]

4 hours ago, royoftherovers said:

There is much that Dealers can do to inform Customers of matters which they may not like,but there is much that  Customers can do to develop and maintain good and effective Relationships with Dealers.

I wonder if this has anything to do with the demographics of the two brands?  Perhaps Toyota buyers tend to be younger than Lexus buyers?

With maturity comes not just more knowledge but perhaps a preference for conciliation and cooperation rather than confrontation.  

Apart from the odd curmudgeon, of course!

[Mr Vlad]

So what that guy only covered 2.3k miles in his new car. When you buy new you expect everything in that car is new. Fact is tho things like batteries and brake pads are bought in bulk as they fit many models. 

As for new batteries dying due to lack of use I'm not buying that. 

I bought my car 2nd hand. Actually I'm it's 2nd owner. Last year I had to buy a new Battery but I needn't have bothered as it was my alternator which died. I've still got that old Battery and in a year of it out of the car it's not lost 1 volt. Goes to show not all batteries are the same and that branded ones aren't always the best.

That guy was well in his rights. That dealer should be shot.

Good to see you back John. Hope you've gotten over what was ailing you.

[wharfhouse]

33 minutes ago, Mr Vlad said:

So what that guy only covered 2.3k miles in his new car. When you buy new you expect everything in that car is new. Fact is tho things like batteries and brake pads are bought in bulk as they fit many models. 

As for new batteries dying due to lack of use I'm not buying that. 

I bought my car 2nd hand. Actually I'm it's 2nd owner. Last year I had to buy a new battery but I needn't have bothered as it was my alternator which died. I've still got that old battery and in a year of it out of the car it's not lost 1 volt. Goes to show not all batteries are the same and that branded ones aren't always the best.

That guy was well in his rights. That dealer should be shot.

Good to see you back John. Hope you've gotten over what was ailing you.

I still have the original 12v Battery on my IS 300h - it's now over 8 years old and done 128k miles but it's used regularly. I've had similar life from batteries in other cars but again they were all used regularly and not abused like leaving lights on or something that would drain them. A Battery left in a car for a long time with a small drain (such as a car alarm) will discharge regardless of how new it is - as per my post earlier about my daughter's car. IMHO the car manufacturer / dealer can't be held to blame if that's the reason for it's demise. 

[royoftherovers]

59 minutes ago, Mr Vlad said:

So what that guy only covered 2.3k miles in his new car. When you buy new you expect everything in that car is new. Fact is tho things like batteries and brake pads are bought in bulk as they fit many models. 

As for new batteries dying due to lack of use I'm not buying that. 

I bought my car 2nd hand. Actually I'm it's 2nd owner. Last year I had to buy a new battery but I needn't have bothered as it was my alternator which died. I've still got that old battery and in a year of it out of the car it's not lost 1 volt. Goes to show not all batteries are the same and that branded ones aren't always the best.

That guy was well in his rights. That dealer should be shot.

Good to see you back John. Hope you've gotten over what was ailing you.

Thanks Vlad.

Not possible to get over it Vlad,I will just have to live with it and try to minimiise the impact

My contributions will inevitably be reduced. Stay well and stay safe.

 

[Linas.P]

9 hours ago, Bluemarlin said:

As the article states, the 12v battery isn''t covered by the warranty by default, which is fairly standard. I can see why that's the case as a battery left idle for long periods will discharge and degrade, and doesn't mean the battery itself is faulty.

The dealer probably handled it poorly by clinging to a mileage claim instead of highlighting how lack of use can affect a battery, but ultimately did right by the customer, so the article seems a little overly alarmist to me.

The problem here is that we don't actually know what the dealer told the customer. Maybe it as response along the lines:

"Lexus: sorry the Battery is not covered under warranty, we cant help.

Customer: yes but it is brand new car...

Lexus: yes but it needs to be driven otherwise Battery will discharge...

Customer: how often I should drive it?

Lexus: driving ~20 miles should recharge it...

Customer: so are you saying I should be driving 20miles every day (i.e. 7280 year)?!"

Obviously I just speculating here, but my point is - it is "AM" who told to the journalist the story, the actual dealer is not named, the actual dealer was not contacted and we do not know the actual advise they gave to the customer. Common sense is that lead-acid batteries will die after a while, I would expect good Battery in brand new car to last at least 6 months, but as we know if it got discharged, then it might get damaged and then after that it may only last 3 months next time. And sure AGM batteries are the thing etc. but even then one should be very lucky if Battery survives 9 months and suffers no damage after that. So I kind of see Lexus point here - they assume at least basic knowledge from the customer and that car is driven say at least once a month. 

Now on other we need to recognise that newer Lexus hybrids are kind of crap when it comes to lead-acid Battery. Especially something like Lexus CH-R... I mean Toyota UX... ahhh... the tiny crossover thing! It has tiny engine, tiny Battery and it just doesn't last if not driven. Other makers like Kia and Hyundai actually uses traction Battery to maintain the level of the starter Battery and that is smart thing... the Lexus on other hand doesn't have this as an option and it is kind of stupid. The Battery doesn't really need that much maintenance... what is consuming it? Just alarm and maybe if you walk by with the keys it triggers smart key module and side lights, with use as such the traction Battery is capable of maintaining it for years... So it is kind of weird and kind of backwards that Lexus hasn't thought about it despite having the most experience in hybrid space. 

[Herbie]

2 hours ago, Mr Vlad said:

As for new batteries dying due to lack of use I'm not buying that. 

I bought my car 2nd hand. Actually I'm it's 2nd owner. Last year I had to buy a new battery but I needn't have bothered as it was my alternator which died. I've still got that old battery and in a year of it out of the car it's not lost 1 volt. Goes to show not all batteries are the same and that branded ones aren't always the best.

You're talking of two different things here Vlad, one of them being self-discharge.

All batteries of any chemistry will self-discharge but, as you can see by the fact that your old one has been out of the car for a year and only lost a volt, the self-discharge rate is very small and it happens very slowly.

When a Battery is in the car and connected up there will still be that element of self-discharge, but the rate of discharge is exacerbated by a process called 'quiescent current draw'. This is current drawn from the Battery to keep certain systems alive and working, such as the alarm, the radio presets, the seat memory and so on, when the car is parked up doing nothing. It should be possible to get the actual specification for the amount of current draw from the manufacturer of the car, but I've never personally seen it written down anywhere.

As a general rule of thumb, it's accepted that a current draw of about 50 to 60 milliamps (0.05 to 0.06A) is considered 'normal' but anything from about 70mA upwards points towards a possible parasitic drain problem and needs to be investigated.

This is where the laws of physics come into play.

Battery capacity is measured in Ampere-hours (Ah). A 60Ah Battery can supply 60A for one hour, or 30A for two hours, 20A for three hours and so on. Given that it's 40 minutes past midnight I'm not going out to check, but I think my RX has a 51Ah Battery fitted. We'll assume that it's brand new and fully charged for this example.

51Ah divided by the quiescent current draw of 50mA means that the Battery will take 1,020 hours to go from fully charged to fully discharged. That's 42.5 days, or 6.07 weeks absolute maximum time available from that Battery. And remember that it will not be able to start the car long before it reaches the fully discharged state, so for the practical purpose of starting the car, you may only have, say, 35 useable days instead of 42.5.

Laws of physics.

[Mr Vlad]

Excellently explained Herbie 👍