What's the problem with electric vehicles

[Mr Vlad]

Dya know what. This thread is titled What's The Problem With Electric Vehicles. It's got a lot of relevant posts but unfortunately, in my eyes, too many irrelevant posts. Things like consistency theories and criminality. ULEZ zones and speed limits. 15 minutes time zones in some towns and cities. 

Those kind of posts need their own thread. I won't be starting it because I can't be bothered. 

So go on and start one and please stop posting irrelevant things in this thread. It's tiresome and getting boring. 

And on a lighter note. Just before I watched a video from someone I watch from time to time. He's a proper EVangelist. He was giving us a 3 year from new review on his Tesla model 3. It was enlightening. On his model the warranty is 50k miles and 5 years. Pretty poor that I think. There's hardly any personal touch as in face to face contact with the dealer. When he first saw his car a panel gap on the rear bumper stood out like a sore thumb. We'll fix that sir they said. Few weeks later they went to his house to fix the issues. Oh panel gap was wide at the top and very thin at bottom. They got the measure out and because it was within tolerance there was nothing they could do. How rubbish is that? And months to fix the infotainment screen. 

[LenT]

4 hours ago, toffee_pie said:

Anything that guy said isn't strictly wrong…

As you’re referring to the article you cited by ‘Paul’ as providing evidence of illegal activities by Bill Gates, being not ‘strictly wrong’ is tantamount to not being exactly right!  Which tends to discredit the accusation.

Why this matters is that this post is ostensibly about the intricacies and nuances of EVs and their Battery technology - a subject about which I have scant knowledge.  I therefore will be guided by the better informed opinions of others here.

Now I can only speak for myself, but if there’s an attitude to ‘evidence’ that an acceptable standard is that it’s not ‘strictly wrong’, and even a suggestion that those opinions may be tainted by prejudice, then it’s not going to get the consideration it might otherwise merit!

[toffee_pie]

17 hours ago, LenT said:

As you’re referring to the article you cited by ‘Paul’ as providing evidence of illegal activities by Bill Gates, being not ‘strictly wrong’ is tantamount to not being exactly right!  Which tends to discredit the accusation.

Why this matters is that this post is ostensibly about the intricacies and nuances of EVs and their battery technology - a subject about which I have scant knowledge.  I therefore will be guided by the better informed opinions of others here.

Now I can only speak for myself, but if there’s an attitude to ‘evidence’ that an acceptable standard is that it’s not ‘strictly wrong’, and even a suggestion that those opinions may be tainted by prejudice, then it’s not going to get the consideration it might otherwise merit!

I said it last year, you lot will never be convinced that anything but what you are told is correct, it's from the government so it's correct.

Oil companies have enough money to fill out earth a few times over - nothing is normal but you lot will never seen anything different.

All you can say is conspiracy followed by theory. 

There's nothing conspiracy about the amount of lithium batteries used in electric cars and there's nothing conspiracy about the telegraph article I mentioned about the true cost of net zero and there is nothing conspiracy about all the cameras, 20 mph zones,, ulez and LTN areas getting developed. It's happening. No conspiracy here.

But just drop it as Malc said and be a good boy and do as you are told, if you were told to stay indoors locked up you will see that as normal too and the government are rolling out SMS alerts soon, April 23rd. They are citing the usual dross, emergency events but I smell more bs

[Mr Vlad]

Eh up Eric. Excellent post. I was going to start another thread regarding conspiracies etc but now I may not. Your post also made me laugh.

It's great how things get muddled misconstrued etc.

Mmmmmm I've just had a swig of coffee and decided that yes I will start a thread on conspiracies. As I think it'll be a guddun. 

[Mr Vlad]

Now this is an excellent video and is a by product of what's wrong with electric vehicles. 

 

[LenT]

1 hour ago, toffee_pie said:

I said it last year, you lot will never be convinced that anything but what you are told is correct, it's from the government so it's correct.

Oil companies have enough money to fill out earth a few times over - nothing is normal but you lot will never seen anything different.

All you can say is conspiracy followed by theory. 

While I’m always interested in responses to my posts, I do wonder, Eric, if this latest conspiratorial attack on Governments and Oil Companies - whatever its merits - has any relevance to my analysis of ‘Paul’s’ article that you offered in order to support your implication of criminal activity by Bill Gates?

Is it possible that you flagged up the wrong post?

If you re-read my post, I’m pointing out that trying to justify your choice of ‘evidence’ against Bill Gates by conceding that the author is not ‘strictly wrong’ is very far removed from it being right!

Indeed, as I noted, ‘Paul’s’ article takes care to avoid any allegation of criminal activity on the part of Gates.

It has nothing to do with your latest response claiming conspiracies on the part of Governments or Oil Companies.  It’s do to with the quality of evidence that conspiracists present.

I suggest that citing an article that’s so easily dismissed only serves to damage the credibility of the proposed conspiracy.

[Mr Vlad]

Eric Len and whoever else. Don't post on this thread if you're going to use words like Conspiracy, Theory, Nazi, Crime and all forms of that word, Bill Gates, ULEZ, Speed zones, LTN areas etc.

I've started a new thread What's Wrong With Conspiracy Theory and that's the thread to post things like that on.

This thread is purely on what's wrong with electric vehicles and nothing to do with governments etc.

Failure to adhere to my request and I'll get this thread shut down. 

That would be a shame for the sake of 'arguments ' spoiling a good debate.

Thank you.

[ganzoom]

We are currently in Scotland for half term, EVs really are a bad problem here, they are such as nusience.....especially the 2 wheeled version. I wonder when a H2 powered pedal bike is coming:)

 

 

 

[DavidCM]

Have you spotted the SNP motorhome with a woman driver yet?

[Mr Vlad]

Oh dear Gang. I hope you're not admitting to being a nuisance 2 wheeler lol. Enjoy your break (no bones that is).

[Las Palmas]

Mining and refining of lithium, nickel, graphite, cobalt, and rare earth metals are very toxic and energy consuming.

A heavy truck will need a Battery weighing close to 3000 kg in order to have a range of 400 km, meaning limited capacity to move goods.

Battery life-span, if from 100% full to 0%, is normally calculated to be 1000 cycles, while 20% to 80% will last a lot longer but have seriously limited range. Charging time will mean less efficiency longer transport times and for food, that is not ideal. Supercharging stations for trucks will have a problem with the space needed for the big trucks, and even if charging time come down to ½ or 1 hour these will have to be gigantic. With the Battery technology available now superfast charging reduce life span of batteries seriously.

We are dependent on China for Li-ion batteries and rare earth metals.

Will enough Li-ion batteries ever be available to make over 50% of all new transportation and personal vehicles pure EVs?

Battery replacement is expensive and no Battery made so far, or expected withing the next 10 - 20 years will last as long as a truck is supposed to last.

All above is written for trucks for transporting whatever we think we need in order to live like we are used to.

[Phil xxkr]

6 hours ago, ganzoom said:

We are currently in Scotland for half term, EVs really are a bad problem here, they are such as nusience.....especially the 2 wheeled version. I wonder when a H2 powered pedal bike is coming:)

 

 

 

I can see how they affect gramar (sic) 

[Las Palmas]

I have had many good times in most of the cars we have had but nothing compares to being faster than a couple of pro bikers less than half my age uphill from sea level to 2000 meter above. Swallows flying around on the way up, air fresher than in any city. What a place to retire. There are so many places you can come to on a bike that a car has no possibility to reach.

While still working I was overweight, had high blood pressure, too much cholesterol, needed pills far too often, and after getting time to get fit again, lost weight, threw away the pills, no more high blood pressure and cholesterol normal.

Can I recommend physical activity? Absolutely. Will I recommend electric bikes? Absolutely not.

 

Above the clouds:

On the way down:

[Bluemarlin]

1 hour ago, Las Palmas said:

Mining and refining of lithium, nickel, graphite, cobalt, and rare earth metals are very toxic and energy consuming.

A heavy truck will need a battery weighing close to 3000 kg in order to have a range of 400 km, meaning limited capacity to move goods.

Battery life-span, if from 100% full to 0%, is normally calculated to be 1000 cycles, while 20% to 80% will last a lot longer but have seriously limited range. Charging time will mean less efficiency longer transport times and for food, that is not ideal. Supercharging stations for trucks will have a problem with the space needed for the big trucks, and even if charging time come down to ½ or 1 hour these will have to be gigantic. With the battery technology available now superfast charging reduce life span of batteries seriously.

We are dependent on China for Li-ion batteries and rare earth metals.

Will enough Li-ion batteries ever be available to make over 50% of all new transportation and personal vehicles pure EVs?

Battery replacement is expensive and no battery made so far, or expected withing the next 10 - 20 years will last as long as a truck is supposed to last.

All above is written for trucks for transporting whatever we think we need in order to live like we are used to.

I think the general consensus is that hydrogen is more appropriate for heavy trucks.

As for EVs and batteries, then there are a host of problems if we look at what's available today. That said, if we were stuck with what was available in 1990 we wouldn't have iPhones today.

Technology tends to find a way, especially if there's demand and sufficient money thrown at it. Apart from the fact that there's   sufficient mineable Lithium to provide batteries for over 2 billion cars (albeit with somewhat questionable methods of obtaining it), technology to reduce the amount of Lithium needed, better Battery recycling, as well as alternative technologies like sodium batteries, leads me to think that in the long term most, if not all, Battery issues/concerns will ultimately be overcome.

That's just my belief though.

 

 

[Las Palmas]

23 minutes ago, Bluemarlin said:

I think the general consensus is that hydrogen is more appropriate for heavy trucks.

As for EVs and batteries, then there are a host of problems if we look at what's available today. That said, if we were stuck with what was available in 1990 we wouldn't have iPhones today.

Technology tends to find a way, especially if there's demand and sufficient money thrown at it. Apart from the fact that there's   sufficient mineable Lithium to provide batteries for over 2 billion cars (albeit with somewhat questionable methods of obtaining it), technology to reduce the amount of Lithium needed, better battery recycling, as well as alternative technologies like sodium batteries, leads me to think that in the long term most, if not all, battery issues/concerns will ultimately be overcome.

That's just my belief though.

 

 

I think that we should not mine for things not needed if that is destroying too much. It is OK to have batteries for smartphones and computers and there are enough minerals for that without destroying the planet, but much more than that is not needed. Big batteries that shall survive life in a car will need so much glue or other bonding material in order not to short-circuit that it will be expensive to maybe not economical reasonable to get the minerals out again.

Sure, there are minerals enough for the next 50 years if we are willing to destroy the planet searching for them and digging them out, and with luck our children will be able to fix the mess we make doing that.

I think that is a bad idea.

[Bluemarlin]

I agree with you on the mining front John, and hope that other, cleaner/greener technologies will emerge as demand for not only products, but environmentally friendly solutions, continues to grow.

[ganzoom]

9 hours ago, Las Palmas said:

Absolutely. Will I recommend electric bikes? Absolutely not.

I'm not sure why some people like cycling but not eBikes? 

Any bike is better than any car in my book. I love my Creo, let's me explore places cars cannot go - 250watts boost for 10% gravel inclines is amazing, but almost as quick as 'proper' roadside on leg power alone when on rolling tarmac.

 

 

[Mr Vlad]

I really like electric bikes. I'd have one if I could afford one. They've got so much going for them. 

Once when delivering in Liverpool I saw a thick tyred electric bike and the way he shot off from the lights was amazing. 

[First_Lexus]

My disability makes riding a bicycle impossible, but I’d love a Renault Twizy (or similar) for local travel to the shops etc. The only thing stopping me - apart from cost as I’ve already got two cars - is wondering how other road users would ‘treat’ a Twizy. It’s more like a car than a bicycle, but I’d still bet some people would be impatient with the 35-40mpg realistic top speed…

[Mr Vlad]

Absolutely Ed. Vehicles like the twizy would be treated with contempt by a vast majority of car operatives. Note I didn't use the word drivers and that's because only about 20% of those who use cars can call themselves drivers. The other 80% are impatient ignorant and self centred and are a danger on our roads. That's why I stopped using my pushbike for work because it down right dangerous on the roads where I am.

[Las Palmas]

On 6/1/2023 at 3:18 AM, Mr Vlad said:

I really like electric bikes. I'd have one if I could afford one. They've got so much going for them. 

Once when delivering in Liverpool I saw a thick tyred electric bike and the way he shot off from the lights was amazing. 

Absolutely, got a lot going for them. Several people are buying them and riding faster than their ability to handle a bike causing lots of accidents.

 

E-bike riders are 57% more likely to be involved in an accident than traditional bike riders, according to a Danish study. This statistic is a crucial piece of evidence in the discussion of E-bike accidents, as it provides a clear indication of the increased risk associated with riding an E-bike.21. apr. 2023

 

What is the injury rate for ebikes?

Specifically, the 115 injuries per million e-bike rides beats out the estimated 104 injuries per million motorcycle rides, 15 injuries/million bicycle rides, and eight injuries/million passenger car rides. It is also significantly higher than the estimated two injuries/million pedestrian trips.22. apr. 2022

[Las Palmas]

On 6/1/2023 at 10:25 AM, First_Lexus said:

My disability makes riding a bicycle impossible, but I’d love a Renault Twizy (or similar) for local travel to the shops etc. The only thing stopping me - apart from cost as I’ve already got two cars - is wondering how other road users would ‘treat’ a Twizy. It’s more like a car than a bicycle, but I’d still bet some people would be impatient with the 35-40mpg realistic top speed…

Do you need a license to drive a microcar in Spain?

In order to drive our micro cars at a maximum speed of 80 km/h, a class B driving license is required. Our e-microcars differ in terms of approval, main inspection and registration. For the 45 km/h variants, different rules apply than for our 80 km/h vehicles.

 

Driving licences for Microcars

VARANEO Microcars 45 km/h

Our VARANEO microcars with a maximum design speed of 45 km/h may be driven with the driving licence class AM already from 16 years. In the federal states Thuringia, Saxony-Anhalt and Brandenburg even from 15 years. The driving licence class AM is included in the driving licence classes B (passenger car), T (tractor) and A1/A2 (motorcycle). In addition, all previously issued two-wheeler driving licenses entitle to drive our microcars with a maximum speed of 45 km/h

VARANEO Microcars 80 km/h

In order to drive our micro cars at a maximum speed of 80 km/h, a class B driving licence is required.

 

People in Spain over 16 years of age will soon be able to drive light electric vehicles at a maximum speed of 90 kilometres per hour, the Interior Ministry has announced. 

 

[Las Palmas]

On 6/1/2023 at 3:18 AM, Mr Vlad said:

I really like electric bikes. I'd have one if I could afford one. They've got so much going for them. 

Once when delivering in Liverpool I saw a thick tyred electric bike and the way he shot off from the lights was amazing. 

I have to correct myself. There is nothing wrong with e-bikes. Well not all of them. Many have not adequate brakes to stop the heavy e-bike in the speed they can get to, and some are not constructed well enough to be driven as fast as they can, but most of the problem come from the humans riding them. Very many of the riders of e-bikes are not capable of handling a bike in the speed such a bike can come up to.

 

1 hour ago, Las Palmas said:

Absolutely, got a lot going for them. Several people are buying them and riding faster than their ability to handle a bike causing lots of accidents.

 

E-bike riders are 57% more likely to be involved in an accident than traditional bike riders, according to a Danish study. This statistic is a crucial piece of evidence in the discussion of E-bike accidents, as it provides a clear indication of the increased risk associated with riding an E-bike.21. apr. 2023

 

What is the injury rate for ebikes?

Specifically, the 115 injuries per million e-bike rides beats out the estimated 104 injuries per million motorcycle rides, 15 injuries/million bicycle rides, and eight injuries/million passenger car rides. It is also significantly higher than the estimated two injuries/million pedestrian trips.22. apr. 2022

I have been riding downhill more than 70km/h (according to Garmin bike computer and Garmin is one of the GPS companies that in my eyes is of top quality) and I am still alive. Those riding bike claiming to never have crashed, they either have not been riding competition or are far better bike riders than I am. Absolutely possible, I know several (they also all of them have crashed more than once), problem with crashing is not the damage you do to yourself, but what you can inflict on other people. That is where e-bikes are not to my liking.

[First_Lexus]

On 6/2/2023 at 7:53 AM, Mr Vlad said:

Absolutely Ed. Vehicles like the twizy would be treated with contempt by a vast majority of car operatives. Note I didn't use the word drivers and that's because only about 20% of those who use cars can call themselves drivers. The other 80% are impatient ignorant and self centred and are a danger on our roads. That's why I stopped using my pushbike for work because it down right dangerous on the roads where I am.

Only yesterday afternoon, returning home in the late afternoon, I came across a bicycle being ridden on a narrow (ish) B-Road. I came up behind it just before a series of bends, so couldn’t see whether there traffic coming towards me that would make the pass safe. I waited. It took perhaps 15 or 20 seconds for me to be able to see and pass safely…

In that time the panel van behind me almost went crazy. Remember, this was only for 15 or 20 seconds. He honked his horn, waved out of his window and was clearly agitated. I noted when he passed the cyclist he did NOT leave a safe distance either.

I hope there is karma coming his way at some time. It wouldn’t matter if he was in an electric van, a hydrogen van or a diesel. He’d be a moron in any of them and based on that single experience he has no business having a driving licence.

[Las Palmas]

1 hour ago, First_Lexus said:

Only yesterday afternoon, returning home in the late afternoon, I came across a bicycle being ridden on a narrow (ish) B-Road. I came up behind it just before a series of bends, so couldn’t see whether there traffic coming towards me that would make the pass safe. I waited. It took perhaps 15 or 20 seconds for me to be able to see and pass safely…

In that time the panel van behind me almost went crazy. Remember, this was only for 15 or 20 seconds. He honked his horn, waved out of his window and was clearly agitated. I noted when he passed the cyclist he did NOT leave a safe distance either.

I hope there is karma coming his way at some time. It wouldn’t matter if he was in an electric van, a hydrogen van or a diesel. He’d be a moron in any of them and based on that single experience he has no business having a driving licence.

Hope that most will learn to take care of other people on the road, but unfortunately patience often come later in life than a driver's license.