What's the problem with electric vehicles

[Mr Vlad]

Just watched this very interesting video. Make sure you've got a cuppa and a snack. Sit and enjoy 

 

 

 

[flotsam]

So,

if they're too cold they have to be warmed up and using the heater seriously hits range,

if they're too hot they have to be cooled down (do they have air-con?),

they take an age to charge,

they set themselves on fire (apparently LiFePo4 are OK),

they lose capacity by a huge amount as anyone with a mobile phone knows, whereupon you're left with a huge bill to replace the Battery or a brick, and

they're really heavy.

Now we're being told that on long journeys, especially with high electricity prices, it's more expensive than petrol!!!

[Mr Vlad]

Samantha let me correct you on a thing or 2. The fact is and I found that out recently and posted a video about it in that the batteries in EV'S do Not lose capacity as much as been misled. For example a tesla model s with 100k miles and about 5 years old only lost 3% capacity. A Nissan Note I think it was after 10 years and over 100k miles lost around 12% capacity. I was surprised by that.

As for weights of EV'S. I've looked at a good few EV'S and their petrol counterparts and there's about a 250-300kg difference. Not a small amount but not a huge amount either. 

Otherwise you're bang on 👍

[talaipwros]

5 hours ago, flotsam said:

So,

if they're too cold they have to be warmed up and using the heater seriously hits range,

if they're too hot they have to be cooled down (do they have air-con?),

they take an age to charge,

they set themselves on fire (apparently LiFePo4 are OK),

they lose capacity by a huge amount as anyone with a mobile phone knows, whereupon you're left with a huge bill to replace the battery or a brick, and

they're really heavy.

Now we're being told that on long journeys, especially with high electricity prices, it's more expensive than petrol!!!

If I  may

If they are too cold , you warm them up via the app from home, you get them nice and warm without having to spend 10 minutes de-icing them. If they are on the home charger, the range is the same

They have aircondition, never noticed any need to cool anything down

at home it is about 20 miles an  hour

no comment on fire

35000 miles, no loss of capacity yet

I presume it is heavy, but is fast enough ( faster than most petrol/diesel)

 

well, on long journeys, use a diesel/petrol! - ( yes, EV will be your second car, if not third)

[Dippo]

29 minutes ago, talaipwros said:

well, on long journeys, use a diesel/petrol! - ( yes, EV will be your second car, if not third)

So we can all save the planet by keeping our ICE cars and buying a second EV car, just so that we can say that we have an electric one?

[Linas.P]

33 minutes ago, talaipwros said:

If I  may

If they are too cold , you warm them up via the app from home, you get them nice and warm without having to spend 10 minutes de-icing them. If they are on the home charger, the range is the same

They have aircondition, never noticed any need to cool anything down

at home it is about 20 miles an  hour

no comment on fire

35000 miles, no loss of capacity yet

I presume it is heavy, but is fast enough ( faster than most petrol/diesel)

 

well, on long journeys, use a diesel/petrol! - ( yes, EV will be your second car, if not third)

That is all assuming you can charge at home... which is very big assumption and I don't think many EVangelists grasps the numbers well. 

Majority of people can't charge cars at home (don't even have place to park a car) and they won't be getting charging points in the near future either. And that is before we even consider that there is neither generating capacity required, nor network capacity required to transmit enough electricity if we assume that everyone will need their cars charged at home.

Overall... EVs are fine, for certain people, who have houses, who can charge at home, who already have cars and buying EV as second or third car in the household... they are fine. Problem is that such people are minority and that the plan in UK is to force EVERYONE to have EV by 2030. And that is the main problem - it works for some, it DOES NOT WORK FOR EVERYONE, so the problem is this uniform approach which doesn't recognise the fact not everyone (by that I mean majority) can have EV, nor puts specific steps in place to enable everyone to have EV (which is impossible, but that is another topic).   

1 minute ago, Dippo said:

So we can all save the planet by keeping our ICE cars and buying a second EV car, just so that we can say that we have an electric one?

Yeah... and that is even before we consider the fact that majority of people don't even have luxury of owning 2 cars. Nevermind the hypocrisy of the whole "planet saving" idea. 

[Spock66]

Without watching the video there is no problem with electric vehicles per se, yes they have advantages and disadvantages as does any technology.

I think they can play a useful role in reducing emissions in urban environments.

The problem is a policy that states the exclusive solution is the electric vehicle.

[Linas.P]

1 minute ago, Spock66 said:

Without watching the video there is no problem with electric vehicles per se, yes they have advantages and disadvantages as does any technology.

I think they can play a useful role in reducing emissions in urban environments.

The problem is a policy that states the exclusive solution is the electric vehicle.

Exactly the problem. 

And the most ironic thing is that they are most beneficial in towns, yet the city-dwellers are least capable people of owning EV (because of parking/charging constrains)... and instead of focusing of city cars with low range to maximise the environment benefit... we increasingly manufacture large cars for countryside with large batteries and long ranges which are less environmentally friendly and likely to be used outside of the city where they have the least benefit.

[Sled Driver]

The environmental damage caused by the mining of the precious minerals used to produce the EV Battery in the first place. Add then the total end of life cost of owning a pure EV vehicle. Never mind the real-world experiences of running a EV in Britain with the lack of viable charging facilities etc. All of this, versus the running of an ICE "normal" vehicle. The fact that the total environmental impact of running a ICE car until the end of it's life is far less. I'd stick to ICE/Hybrid for now.

Heavy industry I'm sure and those large cruise ships roaming the oceans with folk wanting to spend their kids inheritance have more of an environmental impact than my CT ever could! Also running a car with good maintenance and keeping that car long term for a few years makes more sense. ( Sorry Lexus but again I don't want to swap my CT for a new UX and start paying road tax, how many times!)

P.S. Sorry if I've offended any cruise goers 🙊

[Mr Vlad]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Vehicles only produce about 3-5max % of pollution in towns and cities. The buildings in those towns and cities produce over, if I remember right, about 25-30% pollution. 

Oh Kish have you driven the UX250H? Sorry but it wipes the floor with the CT.

 

[Sled Driver]

44 minutes ago, Mr Vlad said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Vehicles only produce about 3-5max % of pollution in towns and cities. The buildings in those towns and cities produce over, if I remember right, about 25-30% pollution. 

Oh Kish have you driven the UX250H? Sorry but it wipes the floor with the CT.

 

Hi Vladimir

As yet I haven't. But the interior I saw at my local dealership and thought it was nice. Next time I need a courtesy car during the annual service MOT I'll try the UX. Last year I had an ES for a few hours and that was nice!!

[Bluemarlin]

Like it or not, EVs are coming, so hopefully the infrastructure will be in place. I'm not sure why people think there should be a charging point outside every house though, any more than a personal petrol pump, it's not as if they have to be kept on charge like a phone. I think people form a mental concern about batteries running low, that they don't seem to apply to the same degree as petrol. I'd have thought that once 400 mile plus range becomes commonly available then people, especially in cities, would only need to recharge about as often as they fill up with petrol. Carparks would make sense for charging points, as people could charge as they shop.

It currently looks as though the government might be optimistic with timescales though, but who knows what progess will be made over the next 7-10 years.

It would be convenient if things stayed as they are, but that's clearly not going to happen, although it wouldn't shock me if the date got put back.

[Mr Vlad]

The thing now Bill is not range anxiety but charger availability and reliability of said charger. The rate of charger installations is oh so slow. About 3k a year but it needs to be nearer 10k installations. 

Other fuel types are coming through like synthetic fuel for instance. 

But yes who knows what will be in 7-10 years. 

[Bluemarlin]

Agreed Vladimir, and hopefully the number of charging stations will increase over the next few years.

Synthetic fuel could be interesting, although I haven't read up on it much to know the current state of play.

[flotsam]

On 2/7/2023 at 7:45 PM, Mr Vlad said:

Samantha let me correct you on a thing or 2. The fact is and I found that out recently and posted a video about it in that the batteries in EV'S do Not lose capacity as much as been misled. For example a tesla model s with 100k miles and about 5 years old only lost 3% capacity. A Nissan Note I think it was after 10 years and over 100k miles lost around 12% capacity. I was surprised by that.

As for weights of EV'S. I've looked at a good few EV'S and their petrol counterparts and there's about a 250-300kg difference. Not a small amount but not a huge amount either. 

Otherwise you're bang on 👍

I'd like to see proof. My phone Battery clearly loses capacity a short time after buying it, though the degradation appears to slow after that. Losing 3% after 5 years appears to defy the chemistry.

[Shahpor]

5 hours ago, flotsam said:

I'd like to see proof. My phone battery clearly loses capacity a short time after buying it, though the degradation appears to slow after that. Losing 3% after 5 years appears to defy the chemistry.

You do know that not all batteries are built equal, right?  Just because both your phone and the EV use Lithium-Ion technology does not mean they are the same in terms of design, build or usage.

This article highlights the difference well:

https://batteryuniversity.com/article/why-mobile-phone-batteries-do-not-last-as-long-as-an-ev-battery

Some highlights:

"The Battery in the mobile phone is consumer grade, optimized for maximum runtime at low cost. the EV Battery, on the other hand, is made to industry standards with longevity in mind. The dissimilarities do not stop there and a key difference is how the energy is dispensed."

"The EV Battery also ages and the capacity fades, but the EV manufacturer must guarantee the Battery for eight years. This is done by oversizing the Battery. When the Battery is new, only about half of the available energy is utilized. This is done by charging the pack to only 80% instead of a full charge, and discharging to 30% when the available driving range is spent. As the Battery fades, more of the Battery storage is demanded. The driving range stays constant but unknown to the driver, the Battery is gradually charged to a higher level and discharged deeper to compensate for the fade."

"Harsh loading also reduces Battery life. Because of its large size, the EV Battery is only being stressed moderately, even during acceleration. In comparison, the mobile phone draws continuous high current from a small Battery when transmitting and crunching data. This puts more stress on a mobile phone Battery than driving an EV. A Battery is also negatively impacted by the pulsed load of a mobile phone rather than the DC load of an EV."

So, despite similarities between phone and EV batteries, they cannot be used for comparison.

[Mr Vlad]

6 hours ago, flotsam said:

I'd like to see proof. My phone battery clearly loses capacity a short time after buying it, though the degradation appears to slow after that. Losing 3% after 5 years appears to defy the chemistry.

The 'proof' I saw was on Fifth Gear Recharge. Try to find the latest series. Possibly on YouTube. Don't get me wrong I'm no EVangelist. I'm dead against being forced to get an EV and intend on driving my is250 fir as long as I'm physically able. 

[Las Palmas]

7 hours ago, flotsam said:

I'd like to see proof. My phone battery clearly loses capacity a short time after buying it, though the degradation appears to slow after that. Losing 3% after 5 years appears to defy the chemistry.

Some people seem to believe that when a Battery is to be used in a car it will be made to far higher standards than apple and Samsung are able to. These 2 brands are not at all interested in having customers that are happy with the quality of the products they are selling. On the other side car factories are interested in selling the very best.

Some people that think like that are perfectly permitted to do that. Computers and phones are usually kept in decent temperature while cars in colder countries are not kept in pockets.

Some people think their best interest is always taken care of by the politicians.

Some do not.

[Linas.P]

8 hours ago, flotsam said:

I'd like to see proof. My phone battery clearly loses capacity a short time after buying it, though the degradation appears to slow after that. Losing 3% after 5 years appears to defy the chemistry.

Because it does defy the chemistry Most of EVs have some capacity cap both at the top and at the bottom to hide the degradation... it is not known but estimates are 10-30%. So that 3% loss after 5 years could mean loss of 13-33% and in next 5 years the degradation may be significantly higher. 

Secondly, Battery degradation is massively impacted by charging type. Charging at home on slow charger the degradation may be very slow, but you you using exclusively fast chargers on motorway then this will accelerate degradation. Some batteries degrade like 10 times quicker on fast chargers compared to slow chargers - this is hard to quantify as it really depends what Battery, how much discharged it was at the beginning of the charge, how full it was charged, what was the rate of charging... so 10 times is probably like worst case scenario and 50% or 1.5 times is best case scenario. But that illustrates the issue with owning BEV if you can't charge at home, or if you doing longer journeys necessitating fast charging on your way.

2 hours ago, Shahpor said:

You do know that not all batteries are built equal, right?  Just because both your phone and the EV use Lithium-Ion technology does not mean they are the same in terms of design, build or usage.

This article highlights the difference well:

https://batteryuniversity.com/article/why-mobile-phone-batteries-do-not-last-as-long-as-an-ev-battery

Some highlights:

"The battery in the mobile phone is consumer grade, optimized for maximum runtime at low cost. the EV battery, on the other hand, is made to industry standards with longevity in mind. The dissimilarities do not stop there and a key difference is how the energy is dispensed."

"The EV battery also ages and the capacity fades, but the EV manufacturer must guarantee the battery for eight years. This is done by oversizing the battery. When the battery is new, only about half of the available energy is utilized. This is done by charging the pack to only 80% instead of a full charge, and discharging to 30% when the available driving range is spent. As the battery fades, more of the battery storage is demanded. The driving range stays constant but unknown to the driver, the battery is gradually charged to a higher level and discharged deeper to compensate for the fade."

"Harsh loading also reduces battery life. Because of its large size, the EV battery is only being stressed moderately, even during acceleration. In comparison, the mobile phone draws continuous high current from a small battery when transmitting and crunching data. This puts more stress on a mobile phone battery than driving an EV. A battery is also negatively impacted by the pulsed load of a mobile phone rather than the DC load of an EV."

So, despite similarities between phone and EV batteries, they cannot be used for comparison.

I do not actually trust this, especially coming from biased source. Most of BEVs use standard 18650 Lithium Cells, I know Tesla has it's own type 20700 and 21700, as well they looking at 4680, but the technology and the principles are the same as consumer batteries. I guess in simplest terms - if you get good quality cells made by Samsung, LG or Sanyo, then they will be equivalent or better quality cells then those in Tesla/other cars, because big part of choosing cells for BEVs are cost cutting. So "industrial" quality just means "cheaper than consumer", because at $18 per cell and ~600cells per pack +~20% of cost of all peripherals using something like good quality Samsung cells would make the Battery cost $12960. And that is just material cost alone, who knows how much should be added for manufacturing, maybe 30-50%. So we are looking at $17000-19500 for Battery pack if best cells are used. Tesla is known to use Panasonic batteries which are generally cheaper for consumer batteries than Samsung, LG or Sanyo. I am not saying they are inferior quality, but cost aspect is definitely very important. We as well know that Tesla Battery costs ~$13500, but it not very clear how much it costs to actually manufacture it... what I am certain of - it definitely does not cost just $540 and that means Tesla don't use best quality cells available for $12960. I reckon more realistically (using high level 30-50% manufacturing/profit margin) the $13500 Battery pack costs less than $9450 in materials and less than $7560 for cells ($12 per cell)... which coincidentally (or maybe not) is the same as best Panasonic "consumer" cells available to buy. 

Now this whole calculation should be caveated and taken with showed full of salt as we don't know what discounts Tesla is getting for ordering gazillion of these cells from Panasonic, but overall I think the statement that "car batteries are industrial and better than consumer equivalents" is myth or marketing, or lie. They are all the same cells, just car manufacturers buys them in bulk which allows them to lower the cost per pack (most important criteria), that as well allows them to order not standard dimensions (which is just for packaging reasons and allows to fill out the pack more optimally), but I really doubt "industrial" is better than "consumer" grade. 

[Spock66]

Another factor in Battery life would be the number of charge / discharge cycles.

Most of us will have our smartphones on all the time necessitating a recharge at least every 2/3 days.

If an EV has a range of 200 miles a weekly charge would suffice for average 10,000 miles per year.

So the average phone will probably get charged 2-3 times more frequently than the average EV.

[Las Palmas]

Denmark is not the coldest country, but having no friends with EV car in Norway (or Siberia) that is closest I come to get info. On a very cold day after leaving car (6 months old) out at night, Battery was having only about 60% of range, though it was charged evening before.

[Las Palmas]

3 minutes ago, Spock66 said:

Another factor in battery life would be the number of charge / discharge cycles.

Most of us will have our smartphones on all the time necessitating a recharge at least every 2/3 days.

If an EV has a range of 200 miles a weekly charge would suffice for average 10,000 miles per year.

So the average phone will probably get charged 2-3 times more frequently than the average EV.

Do you know any with an EV car that only charge once a week?

[Linas.P]

10 minutes ago, Spock66 said:

Another factor in battery life would be the number of charge / discharge cycles.

Most of us will have our smartphones on all the time necessitating a recharge at least every 2/3 days.

If an EV has a range of 200 miles a weekly charge would suffice for average 10,000 miles per year.

So the average phone will probably get charged 2-3 times more frequently than the average EV.

But... if you charging at home with slow charger, then you most likely going to try to charge it every day, to always be topped-up to ensure maximum range is available. Which then necessitates daily charging for just few % which in itself isn't good for the Battery.

At least my smartphone lasts me 2.5 days (Galaxy S22) so I am charging it 146 times per year, whereas one will potentially charge EV every day they drive... but as well could be twice a day if they charge at both ends of the journey... so may estimate would be between 150 and 300 times a year (for myself as I drive ~150 times per year). 

In short I don't think charging weekly is realistic - I cannot imagine myself leaving the car with just 30 miles range on Friday hoping that I will only going to need to go 30 miles... I would always keep it at maximum range to maximise the saving from charging at home and minimise the risk of significant time being wasted (40-80 minutes) and significant cost if I need to charge it on the go.

8 minutes ago, Las Palmas said:

Denmark is not the coldest country, but having no friends with EV car in Norway (or Siberia) that is closest I come to get info. On a very cold day after leaving car (6 months old) out at night, battery was having only about 60% of range, though it was charged evening before.

That is correct - if temperature of the pack is -20C, then it would have only 60% of capacity:

[LenT]

2 hours ago, Linas.P said:

But... if you charging at home with slow charger, then you most likely going to try to charge it every day, to always be topped-up to ensure maximum range is available. Which then necessitates daily charging for just few % which in itself isn't good for the battery.

As has been touched on earlier, it seems that the ideal charging capacity for EVs is to maintain between 80%-20%.  And a driving pattern that means the useful range can be available without daily charging.

This updated article (December 2022) appears to tackle many of the concerns people have about EVs and Battery life.  Having no great personal interest in EVs I can’t vouch for its reliability, but it may interest those who do!

https://blog.evbox.com/uk-en/ev-battery-longevity

 

[Linas.P]

26 minutes ago, LenT said:

As has been touched on earlier, it seems that the ideal charging capacity for EVs is to maintain between 80%-20%.  And a driving pattern that means the useful range can be available without daily charging.

This updated article (December 2022) appears to tackle many of the concerns people have about EVs and battery life.  Having no great personal interest in EVs I can’t vouch for its reliability, but it may interest those who do!

https://blog.evbox.com/uk-en/ev-battery-longevity

The problem is that generally there are very few reliable sources of information when it comes to EVs. I think some of recent youtube videos were quite balanced and close to the truth, but as far as actual sources goes it is either anti-EV lobby which says they are horrible or EVangelists which are saying they are fine. I would put EVbox to the later category...they seem to be strongly on the side of "defeating myths" and repeating marketing material from EV manufacturers. At first it seems like well source article, but let's just follow the money - the quotes are coming from places like Battery University with article sponsored by Cadex, which is electronics testing equipment maker, but importantly manufacturer of batteries and Battery chargers. Other sources are GEOTAB (who are fleet managers), arguably more neutral source, but fleet managers I guess would have some initiative to push for "cleaner" electric vehicles and defeat the "myth" slowing down adoption... (I don't know maybe I am just paranoid). The next one is EVanex - "the manufacturer and distributor of EV and Tesla accessories" according to their site - hardly an unbiased source, they specifically quote Nissan (BEV manufacturer) who says that most of batteries they have made are still in use, which is kind of "economical truth" statement as that neither confirms nor denies the reduction in capacity... if anything recent video about 80k miles Leaf shows it has just about 42% of range left and that equates to ~56 miles or real life driving for that car. 

Not attacking the messenger, especially considering how difficult it is find good sources about this topic... I am just saying I never take what sources says at face value, always check their sources and if they are financially interested in pushing EVs I just dismiss the findings or at very least treat them with a lot of scepticism. 

Finally, again I just can't see "no daily charring" in practice. I may be incorrect, but I would plug in my EV religiously every evening. Don't care if it hurts the batter by cause paying £80 for fast charger and waiting for hour for it to charge on the go not only going to hurt the Battery more, but it will hurt any savings on the car as well. So this is clear contradiction between "EVs are cheaper" and "EV batteries lasts if you charge them only once a week"... they are only cheaper if charged at home with slow charger and they only last if charged as rarely as possible. As well it still falls on same "average mileage" fallacy - people are not just averages and there is no such thing as average mileage when it comes to decision of where to charge. And finally weekly charging doesn't even work, because it would take 18-24h to charge modern EV at home... so basically their use case is extremely magical - they expect one to drive 30-40 miles a day Monday-Friday, every week all year long, for entire ownership and then plug the car in on the Friday evening and let it charge over weekend... where it is usually weekend where people do longer trips!

This weekly charging practice only works if you have ICE weekend vehicle and you dedicate EV just for daily commute an local driving... which as discuss would (important to underline WOULD) work if people would be able to have multiple cars and own BEV as second or third car in household. Otherwise BEV will get charged daily...