This blew me over !

[Linas.P]

12 minutes ago, Spacewagon52 said:

What is HCEV? I Googled and it said Hepatitis!

I was under the impression burning hydrogen did not need catalysts????

Just my abbreviation for Hydrogen (fuel) Cell Electric Vehicle (HfCEV), compared to Battery Electric Vehicle (BEV). No - you don't need catalist for exhaust gases (as that is water), but you need catalyst for fuel cell itself so that hydrogen could be turned into electricity and water by catalysing it with air/oxygen. iridium is used as anode and Platinum is used as cathode in hydrogen fuel cells. 

[Rabbers]

I gave up on this thread a couple of days ago suffering from information overload.  Today confirmed my original diagnosis.

[Linas.P]

12 minutes ago, Rabbers said:

I gave up on this thread a couple of days ago suffering from information overload.  Today confirmed my original diagnosis.

Interesting... that is about the amount of information I go trough before my each post to make sure it is somewhat objective. I wonder then how many people are posting things without research if this tread is to be considered "overload"...

[Spacewagon52]

2 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Interesting... that is about the amount of information I go trough before my each post to make sure it is somewhat objective. I wonder then how many people are posting things without research if this tread is to be considered "overload"...

Don't take it personal Linas. There is a lot to take in these days!

[Linas.P]

2 minutes ago, Spacewagon52 said:

Don't take it personal Linas. There is a lot to take in these days!

No... not all... I just surprised that this thread could overload anyone. In my view it is kind of light... few videos and not much heavy stuff, like reviewing regulations, laws etc. 

Or it might be the case of Renato just joking as well... 

Not taking it personally at all. 

P.S. - that is why I not posted the video I was referring to as I found it slightly boring to watch, but I watch like dozen of such videos everyday about variety of topics. For reference:

 

[dutchie01]

Yes i have seen that video. Great information and she is a born presenter isnt she?

[Las Palmas]

30 minutes ago, DBIZO said:

A friend looked at a similar dilemma recently, and ended up with a plugin. I'm not sure it's that much of a major dilemma at all for resale value. After 8 years, you lost probably 70-75% of your money with a typical car anyway. You're also making the assumption that an 8-year old EV would not depreciate just as much. One could argue it will lose more value for three major reasons: more expensive to begin with; batteries do wear out and at year 8, it could be at significantly reduced capacity eg. 70-80% of design; and because EV cars are evolving faster for now, so a new EVs in 8 years will be considerably more attractive to buyers than a 2023 model.

Also at the risk of stating the obvious, if you maintain that car, particularly a Lexus, it will be a solid, good car even after 8 years as most on this forum will attest to. Mine is approaching 8 years this years and will be past 100k, and not the slightest thing wrong with it, would pick it over most newer cars, including most if not all EVs.

If you're thinking resale value, buy a car with a NA V8...in 10 years' time, there will be a riot for them.

 

(meant to respond to Dutchie's post)

What you mention about reliability of Lexus, the one we have is 6 years and some months old now and does function as when it was new, actually almost look as whan it was new when just washed. Price for same model with same so-called extras is around 20K € here so not really seems to be losing as much as most other cars from other brands.

Hope (and believe) that when needing to be replaced there will be a hydrogen filling pumps and a hydrogen fuel-cell (if not hydrogen combustion engine) car not much bigger than the CT, as we do not need a big car and though a Mirai then probably will be reasonably priced it is too big for us and luxury is not what we need, just reasonable comfort when to be transported from where we are to where we want to go. Being retired now nex car will probably be a used one.

One thing for sure is that hybrid is not for people living on a mountain island as driving around in our micro Lexus consume  is above 6½L/100km, while the Old Golf 2.0 tdi DSG the CT replaced did need a little less than 5L/100km for driving same places same driver. Biggest problem for us with the Golf (lasted 200K km (used it to drive to north Europe to visit family regularly) without any other expenses than regular service) was the black cloud coming from the exhaust that needed 20 - 30 km spirited driving to clean exhaust in order to pass IVA (MOT).

 

[Linas.P]

9 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

Yes i have seen that video. Great information and she is a born presenter isnt she?

I find information very good and it kind of changed my mind slightly on HCEV i.e. before watching it I did not appreciate the limiting factor on iridium and Platinum, I thought the issue is just getting carbon neutral and economically viable hydrogen (and that in my opinion is non issue with nuclear), but as usual it seems it is more complicated than just having enough hydrogen. 

[dutchie01]

Just now, Linas.P said:

it seems it is more complicated than just having enough hydrogen. 

Exactly that will be the reason why after nearly 3 decades it is still an experimental technology that is not lifting off.

[Las Palmas]

42 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Interesting... that is about the amount of information I go trough before my each post to make sure it is somewhat objective. I wonder then how many people are posting things without research if this tread is to be considered "overload"...

That can hardly be your problem Linas; some people can consume more information than other people and we may be more curious and want to know more than some in the forum.

[Mr Vlad]

At the end of the day it's a customer choice on what's available as far as buying a car. Bernard if you're concerned about how much money you'd lose on your next car which would take you to the age where you stop driving then that's mind boggling. Dontbyou have offspring who would like that car? 

I detest that clever clogs woman in that video. She is oh so condescending and blinkered.

[Las Palmas]

24 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

I find information very good and it kind of changed my mind slightly on HCEV i.e. before watching it I did not appreciate the limiting factor on Iridium and Platinum, I thought the issue is just getting carbon neutral and economically viable hydrogen (and that in my opinion is non issue with nuclear), but as usual it seems it is more complicated than just having enough hydrogen. 

A company in Germany has found a new way to make fuel cells different and far less expensive. Maybe because they can do it without the expensive materials.

https://scitechdaily.com/cheaper-hydrogen-fuel-cell-invented-enabling-better-green-energy-options/

Imperial College London researchers has created a catalyst using only iron, carbon, and nitrogen.

Where many things have been long time sleeping, some things are making some wake up and some of the smartest will solve the problems with many things, and just like batteries are better today than 5 years ago, so are many other things and after a lot of money has been put into hydrogen and solving the issues with it, some of the issues will be solved faster than many thought.

[Mr Vlad]

Yes I saw that article and another one similar. Too many judgemental folk putting down a power source they don't like on forums and the like.

[Linas.P]

11 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

Exactly that will be the reason why after nearly 3 decades it is still an experimental technology that is not lifting off.

But it has accelerated in last 10 years from absolute fringe and prototype stage into something actually useable (like Mirai). If not for Mushk and his lies (and to be fair it was much more than Mushk, but he is one of the best know and biggest liars) then BEV would not have taken precedence over HCEV and I think that would have kept both technologies in competition and competition means progress. Now as it is our stupid politicians and large part of ignorant public just decided BEV will be default and that obviously does not help with HCEV development. 

As there are breakthrough in Battery tech (check out aluminium/iron batteries) there are as well breakthrough in fuel cell tech (sadly cobalt phosphate does not sound like great solution... but nevertheless I am sure solutions are possible).

In summary what I am saying - new technologies and progress are always good, even BEVs are very good compared to what we had even 10 years ago, but the danger is that we have forces which tries to muddle with progress and tries to get behind one technology over the other... and we may end-up with similar thing like fossil fuels lobby, which is not good for anyone.

5 minutes ago, Las Palmas said:

A company in Germany has found a new way to make fuel cells different and far less expensive. Maybe because they can do it without the expensive materials.

https://scitechdaily.com/cheaper-hydrogen-fuel-cell-invented-enabling-better-green-energy-options/

Imperial College London researchers has created a catalyst using only iron, carbon, and nitrogen.

Where many things have been long time sleeping, some things are making som wake up and some of the smartest will solve the problems with many things, and just like batteries are better today than 5 years ago, so are many other things and after a lot of money has been put into hydrogen and solving the issues with it, some of the issues will be solved faster than many thought.

  Ohhh... I have no about about it mate. There are smart people around the world who can find solutions to almost anything. Given enough time and resources I am sure we can find solution. My worry is just that some absolute idiots want's to ban existing and working technology by 2030 and force us to use BEV which is not ready yet and which can't satisfy the needs of majority of consumer... and that is just daft. 

 

[Las Palmas]

Still believe that when the CT needs to be replaced there will be filling pumps and hydrogen cars with either combustion engine or fuel cells or something else that can replace the stupid idea of destroying the world in search for materials to make batteries that last far too short a time.

Sure it will be long before 2030 that we can find hydrogen cars.

Said it before: All is impossible till it has been done.

[Las Palmas]

45 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

Yes i have seen that video. Great information and she is a born presenter isnt she?

Except that what she tell us is yesterdays news.

Want to know next:

https://scitechdaily.com/cheaper-hydrogen-fuel-cell-invented-enabling-better-green-energy-options/

Imperial College London researchers has created a catalyst using only iron, carbon, and nitrogen.

[Linas.P]

13 minutes ago, Las Palmas said:

Except that what she tell us is yesterdays news.

Want to know next:

https://scitechdaily.com/cheaper-hydrogen-fuel-cell-invented-enabling-better-green-energy-options/

Imperial College London researchers has created a catalyst using only iron, carbon, and nitrogen.

Well... I think it will be yesterdays news when we have Mirai 3 or whatever with that technology on the road. As of today HCEVs are build using iridium and Platinum and what she saying is still correct and current news. 

Just look into BEV side - solid state batteries were invented in like 1834, still no viable production. Iron and aluminium batteries which can charge in 5 minutes on 500Kw charger have been invented even produced by company in Australia... still no viable production. So one thing is to have theory about how something works, then making prototype and proving it in practice ... and the other thing is to actually mass-producing it for consumers at sustainable rates, making it reliable and dependable technology. So I think when we are talking about technologies we need to think about this last point - as consumers we only care about technology when it is available to buy for us... that somebody somewhere in university has prototype or that NASA build one and sent to the space for $150 million does not help us when we go and buy the car tomorrow.

That is not to say progress is not possible, that is not to say we can't build nuclear power plant dedicated for hydrogen production, but as of today we have not done so, we have not put those products into production and therefore it is too early to claim we have won 🙂 

[Mr Vlad]

Looks like it's still cheaper to drive petrol than an EV on a longish motorway journey using motorway services for both 'fuels'. Just posted a video on the relevant thread.

[Las Palmas]

6 minutes ago, Mr Vlad said:

Looks like it's still cheaper to drive petrol than an EV on a longish motorway journey using motorway services for both 'fuels'. Just posted a video on the relevant thread.

Today it is still cheaper.

What will happen tomorrow none of us know.

When largest cement factories, shipping company, a few oil companies and several other are investing heavily in hydrogen, some of the smartest brains will be starting finding ways to solve the issues. That will overshadow the environmentally friendly grass-roots that started the search for new energy sources, being more efficient, having the needed funds to research, but do not criticise the grass roots that may not be of IQ 168 or more, and the 16-year-old girl (mentioned negatively by one in this forum) did so far accomplice more than all of us; she woke up a lot of people that up till she did it, were not at all interested.

[Linas.P]

57 minutes ago, Las Palmas said:

and the 16-year-old girl (mentioned negatively by one in this forum) did so far accomplice more than all of us; she woke up a lot of people that up till she did it, were not at all interested.

Ohh... I just hope you don't think it is her achievement?! She had huge media monster behind her making out her as movement symbol. That is what she is - a symbol... she had not done anything extraordinary, she had not said anything smart, I even think there are more people who hate her than honestly are motivated by her, so I disagree she made people interested or captivated anyone (well maybe except the few throwing soup on paintings)... but people who runs media companies knows how to manipulate masses and what symbols they need to choose... having child as a symbol is very convenient because it is very hard for establishment (or anyone indeed) to attack child. For example when discussion happens about something in government or business it is very easy to accuse opposing politician or businessman of something they did in the past, make them look hypocrite, show that they have conflict of interest... do the whole ad-hominem thing to them and defeat their character without needing to look at their message or defeat their argument. But you can't do that with child - she has no career, she owns nothing of value, she can't be accused of any hidden agenda, business deals etc. She is a massive media opportunity, a shield for stupid idea which cannot be defeated, nor silenced by usual methods... but she personally is not magic and not special, it could have been any child, from any country and she just happened to be in the right place at the right time and is currently being used to push this toxic anti-human agenda... she is useful tool, that is all.

I know that sounds cynical (it is cynical), but that is how mass media works (and mass media is cynical) - they are using child to push their agenda! Just this time around is little bit more sophisticated than those kids in Africa promoting charity donations, but principle is the same. 

[Las Palmas]

1 minute ago, Linas.P said:

Ohh... I just hope you don't think it is her achievement?! She had huge media monster behind her making out her as movement symbol. That is what she is - a symbol... she had not done anything extraordinary, she had not said anything smart, I even think there are more people who hate her than honestly are motivated by her... but people who runs media companies knows how to manipulate masses and what symbols they need to choose... having child as a symbol is very convenient because it is very hard for establishment to attack child. For example when discussion happens about something in government or business it is very easy to accuse opposing politician or businessman of something they did in the past, make them look hypocrite, show that they have conflict of interest... do the whole ad-hominem thing to them and defeat their character without needing to look at their message. But you can't do that with child - she has no career, she owns nothing of value, she can't be accused of any hidden agenda, business deals etc. She is a massive media opportunity, a shield for stupid idea which cannot be defeated by usual methods... but she personally is not magic and not special, it could have been any child, from any country and she just happened to be in the right place at the right time and is currently being used to push this toxic anti-human agenda... she is useful tool, that is all.

I know that sounds cynical (it is cynical), but that is how mass media works!

I did not say she is smart. Still, she was used and it did function and no reason to speak less flattering about anybody.

Do you not know that politicians and businessmen are hypocrites? All they care about is to continue to increase whatever it is they want.

[Las Palmas]

The Canadian hydrogen supply company HTEC will construct the facility on the North Vancouver Coast.

Based in Vancouver, HTEC recently announced plans to build British Columbia’s (B.C.’s) biggest green hydrogen plant to date, and construction of the production plant is directly linked to the company’s purchase of ERCO Worldwide’s 19-acre industrial waterfront property, which is located on the North Vancouver coast.

This project marks a significant step in the rollout of hydrogen fuel infrastructure in B.C.

The green hydrogen plant will capture, purify and process H2 that is byproduct of ERCO’s chemical process used at its adjacent sodium chlorate factory. The hydrogen will be made using an electrolysis process that produces 56 kilograms of hydrogen per ton of sodium chlorate generated. The plant will capture this energy source from the factory, which was previously wasted, and transform it into fuel to supply HTEC’s growing network of hydrogen fueling stations.

According to HTEC’s vice president of clean fuels, Sabina Russel, the plant has the potential to support the deployment of approximately 30,000 fuel cell vehicles.

“We’re using something that’s otherwise wasted to replace diesel and gasoline and help us move to the zero-emission vehicles,” Russel said, who also serves as chair of the Canadian Hydrogen Fuel Cell Association.

The green hydrogen plant will serve as a model for similar facilities in the province.

HTEC expects to build more green hydrogen facilities in B.C. over the next decade as demand increases for this clean fuel. Russel believes that H2 is going to “play a very important role” in helping Canada meet its net-zero goal.

Presently, HTEC owns and operates five hydrogen fuelling stations in British Columbia. Among them is a station at North Vancouver’s Westview Plaza and one in Kelowna. Additionally, HTEC manages an H2 station on the campus of University of British Columbia. The company has plans for 12 more stations in the province in the coming year.

“We’re going to see more stations come on line and the car manufacturers are basically trying to keep pace by producing the right number of (low-carbon) vehicles for the right number of hydrogen stations,” Russel stated. “We’re starting to see a lot more growth and at present there are around 200 hydrogen-powered vehicles in the province today that are using our stations.”

HTEC’s new green hydrogen plant is slated to begin operation in 2025.

[Linas.P]

1 minute ago, Las Palmas said:

I did not say she is smart. Still, she was used and it did function and no reason to speak less flattering about anybody.

Do you not know that politicians and businessmen are hypocrites? All they care about is to continue to increase whatever it is they want.

I am not defending politicians, I am just saying why she was specifically chosen and what are the reasons behind it. As well - her message is neither interesting, nor it is captivating, nor in fact it is her message (so I don't personally hate her)... she is just confused and misinformed child, being used to further somebodies' agenda. Kind of sad part of that - our society is so ignorant that they can't see past this facade and the big media plan really worked... Basically there is nobody around who can debunk her nonsense, she has genuine grass eating vegetables movement build behind her and because modern society is not used to think for themselves and never really looks into the message being pushed to them, rather the person who is telling it... this just simply works.

What I am saying - modern society is easy to manipulate. The reason for this is - to understand whenever message is true or lie takes a lot of effort and fact checking, so many ignorant people have defaulted to personality cult, basically it matters more who is telling the message, rather the content of the message itself... and here is where child comes very handy, her personality is hard to tarnish and her message never really mattered anyway... so that is how her ideas are planted. But worry not - she is 20 now, so she will inevitably get some negative publicity by doing the things young people are doing and she will become obscure again. She already completed her role, she already put anti-human non-sense on agenda, so I doubt the forces behind her care... they will use her for few more years whilst they still can capitalise on her childhood and that is it. Damage is done already... now we just need time to fix it... hopefully we can do it before 2030 and the stupid ban can be averted. 

[Las Palmas]

5 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

 Damage is done already... now we just need time to fix it... hopefully we can do it before 2030 and the stupid ban can be averted. 

Damage is done already and was before she was ever mentioned.

I Germany they dig and burn coal to produce electricity. In Denmark they have done it since forever.

The good done by the people behind her (as you mention it) is that many more, before not really interested people, now see the businesspeople and politicians as the hypocrites and liars they are. Not that it seems to make any difference as they will continue business as usual.

Pretty sure reasonably fuel cells without rare materials will be ready in a couple of years and when enough ships and trains and heavy-goods-transport will be moved with hydrogen power, it will come down using hydrogen other places like cars.

[Linas.P]

1 minute ago, Las Palmas said:

Damage is done already and was before she was ever mentioned.

I Germany they dig and burn coal to produce electricity. In Denmark they have done it since forever.

The good done by the people behind her (as you mention it) is that many more, before not really interested people, now see the businesspeople and politicians as the hypocrites and liars they are. Not that it seems to make any difference as they will continue business as usual.

Pretty sure reasonably fuel cells without rare materials will be ready in a couple of years and when enough ships and trains and heavy-goods-transport will be moved with hydrogen power, it will come down using hydrogen other places like cars.

You may be right... but I just don't see any positives when it comes to environmentalists. Not because they fighting for environment, but rather because it seems to me their movement was infiltrated and used for other means.

Instead of making world a better place to live, they simply used environmentalist justification to make it dystopian, punish drivers and consumers and just extract more money out of it. The environment message is just being misused to make more money, but environment is not becoming better at all. Electric cars (as I am sure you will agree) probably does more harm than good, yet the environmental protection message was twisted so much that somehow BEVs are seen as solution they are not!