This blew me over !

[dutchie01]

The discussion between EV and non Ev enthusiasts seems not possible as everybody has made up its mind and will not listen to the other side. Its pretty polarised and on top of that the Lexus clientele are known to be a quite conservative bunch….

[Linas.P]

Toyota and Yamaha was working on that engine for many years now, but I personally don't believe it is viable to have ICEV on hydrogen. HCEV (or hydrogen cell) does make sense just due to the efficiency and due to very limited space to store the hydrogen, basically if you managed to fit 5 or 10kg of hydrogen into multiple pressurised tanks, the last think you want is to burn it in ~35% efficient combustion engine (compared to 65% in fuel cell), because the range would be just horrible. That is not to say ICEV can't run on hydrogen (in fact they can even be converted), but because hydrogen storage is such a problem in reasonable space it just becomes impractical. So as fun as it sounds I don't think V8 with hydrogen will ever make-it into production cars... expect of maybe some weird limited run collectable/gimmick.

When it comes to hydrogen powered cars I think they are viable, for example there is now new tech to make hydrogen into the gel, which then can be converted back into hydrogen, which basically allows hydrogen storage in non-pressurised tank and would fit like 30kg of it in the space of normal fuel tank... but that obviously only works in the fuel cell vehicles as that gel is specifically inert and can't be burned. And I guess yes - we can make fuel cell which converts gel into hydrogen and then burns in V8... but if we already using fuel cell, then why wouldn't we just generate energy at much higher efficiency and send it directly into electrical motor which is more efficient, lighter, more powerful and responsive?

In the end of the day - I like V8s, and V10s and V12s.. V6... L6s etc... and I don't mind just burning normal fuel to power them, I don't see issue burning petrol at all... so I kind of see this as little bit pointless exercise. We have internal combustion engines which are good as they are and they require no change, if we switching source to hydrogen, then that technology can co-exist, but it does not need to necessarily power internal combustion engine as that just isn't the best way of using that fuel... This sounds to me little bit like nuclear steam locomotive... could we do it? Yeah sure - heat from nuclear reaction can generate steam and we can power steam pistons with it, but why do it when you can just connect that to electric motor. Kind of steampunk vibes and I guess 8 into 1 manifold as cool as it looks just reinforces this image. 

1 hour ago, dutchie01 said:

The discussion between EV and non Ev enthusiasts seems not possible as everybody has made up its mind and will not listen to the other side. Its pretty polarised and on top of that the Lexus clientele are known to be a quite conservative bunch….

I may just be example of "non-EV" enthusiast, but I tend to believe the issue is firmly on BEV enthusiasts side, they are kind of religious about their cars, as to be fair significant mind and perspective bending is required to appreciate BEVs as they are.

I personally don't believe that I am against BEVs (certainly not against EVs), but it seems simply pointing out objective issues with BEVs can get one kicked out from any EV community. 

Likewise I believe that there is objective truth and making mind on something is not a problem as long as that decision is correct, objective and based in reality... and further on there is no way to make compromise if you are right, because what is the point of that - to agree with somebody who is wrong and then be wrong together? Sadly in modern WOKE culture it is more important to agree with people and moderate their feelings than it is to be actually right/correct.

 

[Las Palmas]

1 hour ago, Shahpor said:

There is a another big problem for hydrogen cars as well: are they too late?

This article has a good breakdown on what manufacturers are planning for the next 7 years:

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-10119941/Electric-cars-Guide-manufacturers-models-future-plans.html?ico=mol_desktop_electriccars-newtab&molReferrerUrl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailymail.co.uk%2Fnews%2Farticle-11681341%2FHow-lack-chargers-soaring-power-costs-sent-electric-vehicle-revolution-reverse.html%3Futm_source%3DLexusOwnersClubUK%26utm_medium%3DForumLinks%26utm_source%3DLexusOwnersClubUK%26utm_medium%3DForumLinks

So, as you can see, Alfa Romeo, DS, Jaguar, Jeep, Mercedes, Peugeot will be all-electric by 2025!  Audi to stop developing ICE's by 2026 and Vauxhall pure EV by 2028.

Now, I know that that is still up to 5 years away, but product lifecycles means that most will be working on those cars right now, and if the platform is EV only, it is unlikely that it can be converted to feature a Internal Combustion Engine easily or cheaply.  Even the ones that have committed to 2030 will probably start working on the new cars once their current ones come to the end of their lives.

So, unless we get a breakthrough in hydrogen power soon, it may be irrelevant how good it is because most manufacturers will have moved on.  In fact, correct me if I am wrong, but aren't Toyota the only one who claim to be working on hydrogen power publicly?

Either way, despite Toyota being the largest car manufacturer in the world, they be facing a flow that is too strong to go against.

All the means that we may have a VHS vs Betamax situation where the technology that wins may not necessarily be the best one.

Valves and injection system is what most combustion engines will have to replace and that is not really that much. Car companies still have all the knowledge and production equipment so changing diesel and gasoline engines to run on hydrogen is not much different from changing same engines to run on liquid natural gas and the cars running on that are lasting as long as the conventional combustion engines.

When batteries are getting expensive (because the need for new is growing) and needs to be changed every 8 - 10 years or so in order to have reasonable range, some countries may not like to enrich China from where most car batteries come.

Had a Betamax, but could not get new cassettes (also a Revox with gigantic tape wheels). Anyway, memory chips have made tape no longer needed.

Hydrogen cars: Right now, maybe best is the Mirai. 1 K Km on one filling lasting 3 - 5 minutes depending on pressure. When hydrogen come here will be looking for something maybe even better than the Mirai.

[Linas.P]

10 minutes ago, Las Palmas said:

Valves and injection system is what most combustion engines will have to replace and that is not really that much. Car companies still have all the knowledge and production equipment so changing diesel and gasoline engines to run on hydrogen is not much different from changing same engines to run on liquid natural gas and the cars running on that are lasting as long as the conventional combustion engines.

When batteries are getting expensive (because the need for new is growing) and needs to be changed every 8 - 10 years or so in order to have reasonable range, some countries may not like to enrich China from where most car batteries come.

Had a Betamax, but could not get new cassettes (also a Revox with gigantic tape wheels). Anyway, memory chips have made tape no longer needed.

I think changes to the engine are not really that major if you just want to run it on hydrogen... if you want to run it efficiently however, then it is pretty much new engine as everything has to change, geometry etc. Kind of bigger issue with retrofitting is finding the place to fit appropriately sized tank (or rather thanks) for hydrogen. So what I am saying - retrofitting existing car with hydrogen system (like LPG) is possible, but they will have horrible range and going to be not cost effective to run and will produce more emissions than petrol or diesel. Building hydrogen vehicle grounds-up would partially deal with those issues, but by the time you do that again you better of with just hydrogen cell rather than combustion engine. 

Now I am sure smart people can overcome all those issues, but again I feel anyone making any changes will take path of least resistance and that seems to be HCEV route. As much as converting existing fleet would matter for us (car enthusiasts) there is little to no initiative for manufacturers, just no profitable...  

[Shahpor]

I feel like you may have missed the point of my post John.

What I was getting at is, if it was as simple as you say it is, then why hasn't it happened already?  Also, if it doesn't happen in the very near future, then the inertia of the modern car manufacture means that it will be too difficult and costly to revert to ICE vehicles once they have been design as pure EV's.

You are making the same point yourself with the below quote:

4 minutes ago, Las Palmas said:

Had a Betamax, but could not get new cassettes (also a Revox with gigantic tape wheels). Anyway, memory chips have made tape no longer needed.

Not being able to get cassettes is the manufacturers abandoning the technology and moving on, which could well be the case once Combustion engines cease being made. 

[Las Palmas]

1 minute ago, Shahpor said:

I feel like you may have missed the point of my post John.

What I was getting at is, if it was as simple as you say it is, then why hasn't it happened already?  Also, if it doesn't happen in the very near future, then the inertia of the modern car manufacture means that it will be too difficult and costly to revert to ICE vehicles once they have been design as pure EV's.

You are making the same point yourself with the below quote:

Not being able to get cassettes is the manufacturers abandoning the technology and moving on, which could well be the case once Combustion engines cease being made. 

What is going to happen when suddenly very many battery-powered cars will need new power because the batteries no longer have any reasonable range? Will countries in our part of the world continue supporting China with money for batteries as that is where most come from?

[Linas.P]

1 minute ago, Shahpor said:

I feel like you may have missed the point of my post John.

What I was getting at is, if it was as simple as you say it is, then why hasn't it happened already?  Also, if it doesn't happen in the very near future, then the inertia of the modern car manufacture means that it will be too difficult and costly to revert to ICE vehicles once they have been design as pure EV's.

You are making the same point yourself with the below quote:

Not being able to get cassettes is the manufacturers abandoning the technology and moving on, which could well be the case once Combustion engines cease being made. 

I think you right... and that is one of my biggest worries... I said that in a post in some other thread - that is why they banning sale not use at first... my speculation is basically that they hoping we going to "ease into the disaster" and by the time we realise how bad BEVs are it will be too late to do anything. By 2030s we still have huge stock of ICEV, so nobody is going to care much, by 2035 the electricity, lithium and taxation cost will start raising and ICEVs both vehicles and fuel will become harder to keep, but still useable... and only by 2040 we will realise "ohh **** I can't afford electricity, or there is no charging capacity... and in the end BEVs just turned out more dirty then what we have replaced... maybe we should got back to ICEVs or hybrids"... but the problem in 2040s is going to be that by that point internal combustion engines will be 10 years out of the production and we couldn't just alter our buying preference like we did after diesel turned out to be not as magic as we thought. 

Maybe I am giving too much credit to politicians believing that they are capable of coming-up with such cunning plan... who knows. More than likely they are just bunch of idiots driving at full speed of the cliff and not even realising it (wouldn't be the first time). 

[Shahpor]

2 minutes ago, Las Palmas said:

What is going to happen when suddenly very many battery-powered cars will need new power because the batteries no longer have any reasonable range? Will countries in our part of the world continue supporting China with money for batteries as that is where most come from?

Will they continue to do what they have done until now for money by buying from China?  Absolutely! Half the stuff on amazon is now made in China, but that doesn't stop anyone from giving them their money.

Also, in terms of technology, there is no greater advancement than when the need is great.  To quote astronaut Jim Lovell: "From now on we live in a world where man has walked on the Moon. It's not a miracle; we just decided to go."

[Linas.P]

6 minutes ago, Shahpor said:

"From now on we live in a world where man has walked on the Moon. It's not a miracle; we just decided to go."

It is both funny and sad at the same time...

I think we are capable of cleaning-up our emissions if we really wanted, same as we were able to go to the moon... I really think that if powers in the world would want to solve this issue they would solve it. The problem - it seems to me that solving the issue is the last thing they want - honestly everything they doing is not to reduce emissions, but rather to extract most profit from the pollution. And here is the conflict of interest - if polluting can be taxed or profited from, then reducing pollution is clearly in conflicts with that, so it seems to me the goal is to continue polluting and just brainwash us into accepting that we have to pay for it for some reason. Sorry for continuing on this conspiracy trail, but it just seems strange that we are listening to some 16 years old girl from Sweden and some soup spilling vegetables who glue themselves to the floor... clearly if we wanted to find solution we would be working with scientists, developing new technologies and not asking circus clowns opinion. 

[Shahpor]

1 minute ago, Linas.P said:

but it just seems strange that we are listening to some 16 years old girl from Sweden and some soup spilling vegetables who glue themselves to the floor... clearly if we wanted to find solution we would be working with scientists, developing new technologies and not asking circus clowns opinion. 

As you say, funny and sad at the same time.

[Linas.P]

Another conspiracy - talking about hydrogen here.... and youtube straight away offers me a video... perhaps because I clicked on the link shared by John or whatever, but still creepy...

That said good video which explains why I don't think hydrogen with combustion engines really going to materialise:

 

[Linas.P]

Ohh and to the same topic (I wonder where I have seen it before 🙂 )- 

 

[ganzoom]

11 hours ago, Shahpor said:

What I was getting at is, if it was as simple as you say it is, then why hasn't it happened already?

The saddest thing is, there ARE hydrogen cars you can buy, there ARE hydrogen fuel stations in the UK, yet those here to claim they 'believe' in hydrogen fuel for passenger cars refuse to back up with talk with action. It's like listening to MPs talk about XYZ, a load of hot air with no action. 

[ganzoom]

11 hours ago, Las Palmas said:

What is going to happen when suddenly very many battery-powered cars will need new power because the batteries no longer have any reasonable range? Will countries in our part of the world continue supporting China with money for batteries as that is where most come from?

I'm coming up to 100K covered in EVs, I've yet to come across the situation you describe. 

Can you share us the real life long term reliability of hydrogen fuel cell cars? 

[08ISF]

12 minutes ago, ganzoom said:

I'm coming up to 100K covered in EVs, I've yet to come across the situation you describe. 

Can you share us the real life long term reliability of hydrogen fuel cell cars? 

It is a simple fact that all batteries degrade over time and they degrade a bit faster if they are regularly fast charged. The issue of Battery life has not really come to the fore yet because there are not enough electric cars of sufficient age to assess it meaningfully, but it is a potential problem. What do we do with all the old batteries and where do we get the raw materials for new ones?

On the issue of hydrogen fuel cell reliability, no one knows because there are not enough of them on the road.  It is technology that hasn't really been explored properly, it is just being dismissed in the headlong rush to go electric.

The bigger issue with both of these options is the infrastructure to support them. At present the electrical charging infrastructure hasn't really been stressed yet. This will come as the sales of electric cars accelerates and we might not like what happens if the infrastructure doesn't keep pace with demand (and it won't as it is going to require some big upfront investment)

There is no real infrastructure for hydrogen as there are too few FCEV's on the road to  make it viable at present.  Put in a few more H2 filling stations and more people will buy FCEV's, then you will need more filling stations and so on.

IMO we are heading towards a cliff where suddenly we will find that BEV's weren't the one size fits all  solution, but nobody in government is interested at the moment.

[Mr Vlad]

Well I read an article on Google. The author is an established motor columnist. Written a couple of car books. You know the sort. His article was titled 'is hydrogen the answer'.

Ruddy long article but it actually made sence. The gist was that for cars No. For logistics Yes.

He stated that to make a hydrogen fuel station, like a petrol station, would cost £2 million. That's for just one station. That fact I found quite unbelievable. Another interesting point was that to deliver that hydrogen to the stations needs transport. Hang on I thought. How the hell does petrol get to to the stations. His I suppose conclusion was the hydrogen for cars won't happen but for trucks trains ships planes logistics basically hydrogen is the answer. So that would mean having a large number of filling stations. If there's going to be lots of filling stations then why not have hydrogen powered cars. Makes sence yes?

What he said was overall quite right. Only wish I could find that article. 

I think it was on Fifth Gear Recharged. Buying an EV 2nd hand. How are the batteries? 3 cars were tested. The Nissan, the very first ev put on the road, a tesla model s and one I've forgotten. The cars were of different ages but each had done over 100k miles.

The Nissan lost around 12-25%. The tesla. Wow. This surprised me. Only lost 3-5%. The third car was surprisingly lowish also.

[Las Palmas]

17 hours ago, Linas.P said:

It is both funny and sad at the same time...

I think we are capable of cleaning-up our emissions if we really wanted, same as we were able to go to the moon... I really think that if powers in the world would want to solve this issue they would solve it. The problem - it seems to me that solving the issue is the last thing they want - honestly everything they doing is not to reduce emissions, but rather to extract most profit from the pollution. And here is the conflict of interest - if polluting can be taxed or profited from, then reducing pollution is clearly in conflicts with that, so it seems to me the goal is to continue polluting and just brainwash us into accepting that we have to pay for it for some reason. Sorry for continuing on this conspiracy trail, but it just seems strange that we are listening to some 16 years old girl from Sweden and some soup spilling vegetables who glue themselves to the floor... clearly if we wanted to find solution we would be working with scientists, developing new technologies and not asking circus clowns opinion. 

Many things make sense and do not happen. Many things make no sense and happening all the time.

If something make sense depend on from which side it is viewed.

War make sense for weapons manufactories that make much money and have great lobby machines influencing governments. Some think war makes no sense. No lobby machine, no money, no luck.

Stop polluting the world make sense, most will say it is good, but few are willing to do anything to change habits, and as long as there is money to be made from polluting there will be no government going against those polluting and making more money.

Does it make sense to spend fortunes on cars in formula one just to entertain? Yes, if it is profitable. Does it pollute? Absolutely. Almost same answer to paying athletes enormous sums, for entertaining us.

So, if something make enough sense to be actually done anything about depend only on the simple question: Is it profitable? Anything else, such as if it is healthy, or good for living creatures is not taken into consideration.

[Shahpor]

3 hours ago, Mr Vlad said:

Well I read an article on Google. The author is an established motor columnist. Written a couple of car books. You know the sort. His article was titled 'is hydrogen the answer'.

Ruddy long article but it actually made sence. The gist was that for cars No. For logistics Yes.

He stated that to make a hydrogen fuel station, like a petrol station, would cost £2 million. That's for just one station. That fact I found quite unbelievable. Another interesting point was that to deliver that hydrogen to the stations needs transport. Hang on I thought. How the hell does petrol get to to the stations. His I suppose conclusion was the hydrogen for cars won't happen but for trucks trains ships planes logistics basically hydrogen is the answer. So that would mean having a large number of filling stations. If there's going to be lots of filling stations then why not have hydrogen powered cars. Makes sence yes?

What he said was overall quite right. Only wish I could find that article. 

I think it was on Fifth Gear Recharged. Buying an EV 2nd hand. How are the batteries? 3 cars were tested. The Nissan, the very first ev put on the road, a tesla model s and one I've forgotten. The cars were of different ages but each had done over 100k miles.

The Nissan lost around 12-25%. The tesla. Wow. This surprised me. Only lost 3-5%. The third car was surprisingly lowish also.

Shame you can't find the article as it sounds quite interesting!

Anyway, correct me if I am wrong, but this sounds to me like you would need a lot less filling station for logistical transport as they can fill up at centralised depots or hubs, so it still wouldn't work for regular cars?  Also, 3-5% after 100k miles?  Wow, that is much better than I thought it would be.  Very impressive if correct.

[08ISF]

3 hours ago, Mr Vlad said:

His I suppose conclusion was the hydrogen for cars won't happen but for trucks trains ships planes logistics basically hydrogen is the answer. orgotten.

This is probably the way it will eventually pan out. Electric cars/taxis that can be charged at home  or in supermarkets etc and only do less than 200miles /day are most likely the answer especially for city centres/urban locations. providing the infrastructure is beefed up to suit Anything that is heavy or needs to travel great distances, then H2 is a better bet. As noted, if we have to have H2 charging stations then they could be used for cars as well. Either way we need to decide soon what the plan is.

 £2M for a hydrogen fuel station? So? How much do we think it will cost to put  say 6 x 350kW fast chargers in a charging station? That is 2.1MW which is a serious amount of power . Depending on location this will require a substation, reinforcement of the high voltage ring,  possible laying of new large cables from some way away , roadworks etc etc . That will be comfortably in excess of £2M , trust me. The one thing that is certain is, whichever route is chosen, guess who's going to foot the biil, one way or another?

The article, which I haven't read, appears from the description given to be typical of the biased , ill informed reporting we have come to expect of late. When , oh when  are we going to get the  cold, hard,  facts laid out?

[Mr Vlad]

Shahpor I forgot to mention that hydrogen filling stations would more likely be at hubs where HGV park/deliver. Council yards too. 

WOW Graham. Excellently put. An eye opener about the cost of putting a bank of EV chargers. The supply of the electricity too in that the aged cables that are running electricity through will also need uprating to a much higher capacity. That alone I'd Imagine costing Billions. 

[ganzoom]

15 hours ago, 08ISF said:

Either way we need to decide soon what the plan is.

Surely the decision is made already? And its driven by what people actually do versus just talk about?

You can buy a hydrogen powered car tomrrow as you can an EV. There are hydrogen fuel stations in the UK as there are EV rapid chargers. 

How many EV owners are on this forum versus hydrogen car forums?

If you were central government who will you give 'support' to, people who just talk about don't actually buy or do anything, or people who actually carry out action?

[Las Palmas]

China will have approximately 50,000 hydrogen fuel cell vehicles on the road by 2025, according to a plan from the National Development and Reform Commission and the National Energy Administration (NAE). The country’s annual hydrogen production from renewable energy will increase from 100,000 to 200,000 tons.
That being said, though China currently has about 270 hydrogen refueling stations across the nation – the most of any other country in the world – this is only a small network of stations when compared to the nation’s vast number of charging facilities for electric vehicles.

As for the new hydrogen passenger train, according to Chinese media, the train officially launched in Chengdu, Southwest China’s Sichuan Province on January 18th, 2023.
The train has a 373 miles (600 km) Battery life and is capable of reaching 100 mph (160 km/h). As a result, it is the world’s fastest hydrogen-powered train to date. It can run 311 miles (500 km) back and forth each day, which can lower carbon dioxide emissions by over 10,000 kg per year.

Another benefit of the H2 train is that it can also be used in existing non-electrified line sections, and this can be done without having to heavily invest in infrastructure and maintenance costs, which is a common challenge when transitioning existing transit to electrification.
It is also the fastest hydrogen train to date.
The zero-emission hydrogen passenger train has the same key core technology of the Fuxing bullet train. However, instead of the original catenary power supply, the H2 urban train has a hydrogen fuel cell and supercapacitor. Energy is produced in the hydrogen fuel cell by the electrochemical reaction of hydrogen and oxygen, with the only by-product of this reaction being water. This reaction process is not only clean, but also stable and produces very little noise.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-S-aNaDXV4

Somebody in this forum believe that if something is not happening in front of their own nose, then it does not happen, will never happen, is impossible to happen.

[Malc1]

roll on the BP petrol station fuel estate in the UK at 1200+ with each being fitted out with the new BP north of England produced hydrogen then  ..  to support the Toyota dream, turning into reality, of ramping up sales of the Mirai

There's more likelihood of BP and Toyota achieving whatever they want to achieve in the UK with hydrogen than the Govt sorting out strikers being paid from the public purse . you and me with our taxes .... and maybe Train drivers not getting too much public sympathy raising their existing salary levels above the £69k pa 🙃

Malc

sorry i digressed there BUT I'm just a little peeeeeed off with strikes strikes strikes and NHS workers amongst others complaining that we, Joe public, clapped them in much well deserved appreciation during covid, and they must now get our support for strike action and increased wages and forget that Joe public often didn't get paid during that time and they did ........ and there's no clap clap clapping now to support them ( not from me anyway ) ................ whilst during covid time I was laying off half a dozen staff coz covid buggered up my business ....  my staff never got paid after that ............ and these strikers just did and continue to do so ..  ugh, I'm fed up with penalising Joe public thru the public purse and taxes supporting strikers

 

[Linas.P]

8 minutes ago, Malc1 said:

roll on the BP petrol station fuel estate in the UK at 1200+ with each being fitted out with the new BP north of England produced hydrogen then  ..  to support the Toyota dream, turning into reality, of ramping up sales of the Mirai

There's more likelihood of BP and Toyota achieving whatever they want to achieve in the UK with hydrogen than the Govt sorting out strikers being paid from the public purse . you and me with our taxes .... and maybe Train drivers not getting too much public sympathy raising their existing salary levels above the £69k pa 🙃

Malc

sorry i digressed there BUT I'm just a little peeeeeed off with strikes strikes strikes and NHS workers amongst others complaining that we, Joe public, clapped them in much well deserved appreciation during covid, and they must now get our support for strike action and increased wages and forget that Joe public often didn't get paid during that time and they did ........ and there's no clap clap clapping now to support them ( not from me anyway ) ................ whilst during covid time I was laying off half a dozen staff coz covid buggered up my business ....  my staff never got paid after that ............ and these strikers just did and continue to do so ..  ugh, I'm fed up with penalising Joe public thru the public purse and taxes supporting strikers

Toyota really needs to either built it's own network (like Tesla Superchargers) or partner with somebody, because currently HCEV are chicken and egg situation. People don't buy them because there are no infrastructure and business does not want to build infrastructure because there is no demand to buy hydrogen. I know they doing something like that in Japan, but strange they haven't tried it in Europe.

And secondly they need to roll hydrogen for almost every model they have on sale, Mirai is just weird car which as cool as it is won't captivate the market for sure. They literally just need to pull the HCEV pack and put it into something like RX, ES, LC (which is basically on same platform as Mirai) and obviously all similar Toyota models, Prius (similar to Mirai 1), Corolla, RAV4 etc. etc. The needs to be choice of HCEV if they expect the technology to pick-up.

[Mr Vlad]

I'm sorry you had to lay off staff during covid Malc. Not sure what your business was/is But on the flip side I worked for a company delivering fruit and veg to schools. 95% of the business went. Did my employer lay any of us off? NO. Why? Coz he got the government pay scheme thing. Why didn't you? 

Things are changing on what seems to be on a weekly basis. Innovations are coming out on hydrogen manufacturer. 

Someone is asking for an actual personal comparison between an EV and the Toyota Mirai. Contact James May. He's had one and a tesla.