Are you happy with your ES ?

[Hadrian]

We presently have the IS300h, which we have been more than happy with, in just over four years, the only thing that failed was a spark plug. Later this year we are looking at a replacement, something from around 2020.  I initially looked at the NX, but now have been looking at the ES300h, as it is only fractionally bigger than our IS, so will still fit in our garage.  From the various videos I have watched it seems a very nice car, and comes with a lot of bells and whistles.  I'd like to hear people's experiences of ownership.

[Guest]

I moved from an IS to my ES, never regretted it. It feels like a step up from the IS, it is very smooth, quiet and relaxed to drive. I have the Takumi model with ML audio which is fantastic, it is also more economical than the IS due to the next generation hybrid system. Any negatives? well the rear seats don’t fold and there is the turning circle, it seems big!!!. I am keeping my ES for a long time such is my satisfaction with it.

[Guest]

One more thing the infotainment is a lot better but get one with Android auto/Apple CarPlay

[GrinFandango]

The ES (2022) is a long vehicle, longer than the NX. Its has superior ride comfort to the IS, NX and at times, on certain terrains even the RX due to its low centre of gravity.

Be careful though, and make sure you've taken it out for a test drive prior to purchase. Visibility out of the car was a huge issue for me compared to my RX. I agree with Derant, the turning circle is an issue, primarily due to the car's sheer length, similar to my RX.

Also, it's a low car, as low as my coupe that I use for weekend racing. It can feel claustrophobic on gloomy days. Driving in central London is challenging due to its length, low height and (comparatively) limited visibility. 

NX and RX are a different category of cars to the ES and IS. I would strongly recommend driving an NX or RX prior to deciding on a saloon car. 

[beyond the blue]

The ES is defiantly a long car, although it's perfectly proportioned. I believe the rear passenger legroom is actually longer than the LS and the boot space is ample. Although the rear seats don't drop down the pass-through is ok for the occasional trip to B&Q. The width is spot on and well proportioned with regard to shoulder space from passengers. Because of the length the turning circle is not great if you use multi-story car parks, but if you do you will have no trouble finding your car on your return (it's the one sticking out). I don't find it too low to get in and out and I'm in my 70s, I can also reach the centre of the roof to clean it without using any steps. After owning large jags in the past the thing I like about the ES is the fact that you don't get stared at and the kids in the next car don't want to race you. The ES isn't perfect, but for a mid priced car it's not far off.

 

[Mincey]

I love Betsy. She does everything I ask of her with aplomb. 

[Marko89]

On 1/26/2023 at 11:57 AM, beyond the blue said:

The ES is defiantly a long car, although it's perfectly proportioned. I believe the rear passenger legroom is actually longer than the LS and the boot space is ample.

Have read somewhere there is 1cm of a difference, unless you frequently give lifts to models there will never be an issue with legroom. Due to the swooping roofline (and probably low ride height) however, I know my dad has a little bit of a struggle getting in and out of the back seats due to his restricted mobility and advanced years.

For us though the ES is ideal, we've already chatted about just paying the balloon at the end for the first time ever and running it till we hit the 10 year warranty. We've ran it round the coast of Ireland and down to Southern Germany with only my eyes starting to feel tired. 

Only issue so far has been a blocked washer hose, which lets face it could happen to any car. Economy is spot on and for being a luxo barge the road holding is excellent and can raise a smile through the twisties (disclaimer: Switched from factory bridgestones to Crossclimate 2s). 

[Hadrian]

Thanks for the info.  I've checked the measurements, and it's only a fraction longer and wider than the IS.

So many things to ponder. I was looking at the NX, but that's more of an upmarket version of our Yaris,

which we use as a general run around.

[Mincey]

On 1/27/2023 at 2:34 PM, Marko89 said:

 (disclaimer: Switched from factory bridgestones to Crossclimate 2s). 

My love affair with Betsy's Bridgestones has come to an end. It's almost impossible to get the power down when accelerating off one of those stupidly short slip roads onto the A1 or when trying to beat a Scheissewagen off the line. They have to go.

[NemesisUK]

8 minutes ago, Mincey said:

My love affair with Betsy's Bridgestones has come to an end. It's almost impossible to get the power down when accelerating off one of those stupidly short slip roads onto the A1 or when trying to beat a Scheissewagen off the line. They have to go.

I'm sure the cooler weather plus the salt deposits won't be helping either...

[Dippo]

4 hours ago, Hadrian said:

Thanks for the info.  I've checked the measurements, and it's only a fraction longer and wider than the IS.

It's about a foot longer, and nearly 2 inches wider - but they do say size doesn't matter!

https://www.automobiledimension.com/car-comparison.php

[First_Lexus]

5 hours ago, Hadrian said:

. I was looking at the NX, but that's more of an upmarket version of our Yaris,

^^ Really? I’d never have called the NX an “upmarket Yaris.” 😆

[Cs150]

ES is a great car overall, the sound proofing of the 23MY car is outstanding and likely just as good on previous model years. Have had mine on the ramps and inspected the quality underneath and it is incredible the sound proofing material used in the floorplan a great deal of effort has been undertaken to minimise noise. 

Handling lacks feel when pushed in the corners compared to some cars and does not inspire confidence however this is a big barge and not made for that. I do feel the handling could be improved though or at least allow for more feedback.

Drivetrain very smooth but the brakes just before halting the vehicle seem to have a slight minor judder as they switch out of regenerative mode maybe? Lack of spare wheel as an option from the dealer is unacceptable in my view and could easily leave you stranded. As all other owners will know in time the safety systems can engage an emergency stop at times when it is a false positive. Turning circle can be a challenge and the car is not at home in tight spaces.

Lexus UK is a disappointment, dealer is a disappointment the ordering experience of the car was a disappointment but the car is very good.

[Hadrian]

5 hours ago, First_Lexus said:

^^ Really? I’d never have called the NX an “upmarket Yaris.” 😆

The wrong choice of words maybe   

[Linas.P]

If NX is upmarket version of Yaris, then I don't know where to put ES... NX is noticeably more solid car and better put together than ES which feels "modern but cheap" (as it is Toyota Avalon... and yes I know NX is just a RAV4, but somehow Lexus put enough effort to make NX feel like Lexus). Admittedly, I have not tried new NX, nor RAV4 (don't know if Lexus cheapened it down, but so far owner's feedback does not suggest that), maybe it just happens to be that RAV4 itself is more solid than Avalon. That said what I have specifically tried - 2019 NX vs 2019 ES and the NX feels class above, whereas ES feels distinctively like Toyota. As it happens I have driven both new Camry and Avalon quite extensively and ES is just identical down to the buttons and stalks, it is the same car just with Lexus badge. ES does have different entertainment system and obviously ML sounds 100 times better than anything fitted to Camry, but in other hand Avalon/Camry infotainment is easier to use, more straightforward controls and it has android auto/apple car play out of the box, whereas not all ES have it (not sure when Lexus started fitting it as standard). 

As for turning circle - that is because of FWD (wheel lock angle just can be as good as RWD because drive shaft don't bend), lack of steering response - again that is FWD and I doubt it could be improved (Lexus isn't known for best steering feedback/feel, but FWD does not help), struggling to put down power on slip roads again FWD. When I say - I will never own FWD car many argue that "in normal driving it is not an issue and if it is an issue then you must be driving like maniac", yet just quick glance at the feedback (which I must point out is very honest and helpful) suggest there are plenty of examples in normal driving where FWD is inferior.

I know existing ES owners already hate me, but I won't miss a chance to point out that FWD is just wrong wheel drive and ES overall is step down from both GS and even IS. Yes it is bigger than IS, it is better equipped and more modern than GS... the only problem it isn't really a Lexus or at least doesn't fee like one in my opinion.

OP - have you considered very late GS? There still must be few around from 2019 (although none for sale now). Definitely better driving car, more luxurious, better put together, more comfortable... but little bit more dated and will be slightly worse on fuel. Certainly big upgrade from IS, not side-step like ES.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Linas.P said:

If NX is upmarket version of Yaris, then I don't know where to put ES... NX is noticeably more solid car and better put together than ES which feels "modern but cheap" (as it is Toyota Avalon... and yes I know NX is just a RAV4, but somehow Lexus put enough effort to make NX feel like Lexus). Admittedly, I have not tried new NX, nor RAV4 (don't know if Lexus cheapened it down, but so far owner's feedback does not suggest that), maybe it just happens to be that RAV4 itself is more solid than Avalon. That said what I have specifically tried - 2019 NX vs 2019 ES and the NX feels class above, whereas ES feels distinctively like Toyota. As it happens I have driven both new Camry and Avalon quite extensively and ES is just identical down to the buttons and stalks, it is the same car just with Lexus badge. ES does have different entertainment system and obviously ML sounds 100 times better than anything fitted to Camry, but in other hand Avalon/Camry infotainment is easier to use, more straightforward controls and it has android auto/apple car play out of the box, whereas not all ES have it (not sure when Lexus started fitting it as standard). 

As for turning circle - that is because of FWD (wheel lock angle just can be as good as RWD because drive shaft don't bend), lack of steering response - again that is FWD and I doubt it could be improved (Lexus isn't known for best steering feedback/feel, but FWD does not help), struggling to put down power on slip roads again FWD. When I say - I will never own FWD car many argue that "in normal driving it is not an issue and if it is an issue then you must be driving like maniac", yet just quick glance at the feedback (which I must point out is very honest and helpful) suggest there are plenty of examples in normal driving where FWD is inferior.

I know existing ES owners already hate me, but I won't miss a chance to point out that FWD is just wrong wheel drive and ES overall is step down from both GS and even IS. Yes it is bigger than IS, it is better equipped and more modern than GS... the only problem it isn't really a Lexus or at least doesn't fee like one in my opinion.

OP - have you considered very late GS? There still must be few around from 2019 (although none for sale now). Definitely better driving car, more luxurious, better put together, more comfortable... but little bit more dated and will be slightly worse on fuel. Certainly big upgrade from IS, not side-step like ES.

I have sat in a Camry and it is nothing like my ES (even the platform is modified with extra joints and bracing before we get to sound proofing, equipment etc). The ES has been around since Lexus began, in its 7th version and the second best selling Lexus of all time and yet isn’t a Lexus in the eyes of someone who, if I remember correctly, has never actually driven an ES

[Cs150]

10 hours ago, Linas.P said:

If NX is upmarket version of Yaris, then I don't know where to put ES... NX is noticeably more solid car and better put together than ES which feels "modern but cheap" (as it is Toyota Avalon... and yes I know NX is just a RAV4, but somehow Lexus put enough effort to make NX feel like Lexus). Admittedly, I have not tried new NX, nor RAV4 (don't know if Lexus cheapened it down, but so far owner's feedback does not suggest that), maybe it just happens to be that RAV4 itself is more solid than Avalon. That said what I have specifically tried - 2019 NX vs 2019 ES and the NX feels class above, whereas ES feels distinctively like Toyota. As it happens I have driven both new Camry and Avalon quite extensively and ES is just identical down to the buttons and stalks, it is the same car just with Lexus badge. ES does have different entertainment system and obviously ML sounds 100 times better than anything fitted to Camry, but in other hand Avalon/Camry infotainment is easier to use, more straightforward controls and it has android auto/apple car play out of the box, whereas not all ES have it (not sure when Lexus started fitting it as standard). 

As for turning circle - that is because of FWD (wheel lock angle just can be as good as RWD because drive shaft don't bend), lack of steering response - again that is FWD and I doubt it could be improved (Lexus isn't known for best steering feedback/feel, but FWD does not help), struggling to put down power on slip roads again FWD. When I say - I will never own FWD car many argue that "in normal driving it is not an issue and if it is an issue then you must be driving like maniac", yet just quick glance at the feedback (which I must point out is very honest and helpful) suggest there are plenty of examples in normal driving where FWD is inferior.

I know existing ES owners already hate me, but I won't miss a chance to point out that FWD is just wrong wheel drive and ES overall is step down from both GS and even IS. Yes it is bigger than IS, it is better equipped and more modern than GS... the only problem it isn't really a Lexus or at least doesn't fee like one in my opinion.

OP - have you considered very late GS? There still must be few around from 2019 (although none for sale now). Definitely better driving car, more luxurious, better put together, more comfortable... but little bit more dated and will be slightly worse on fuel. Certainly big upgrade from IS, not side-step like ES.

Not sure about the NX feeling more solid, at the Lexus dealership the more senior members of staff get a selection of most of the range as company cars except LS and six figure costing cars. They all drive ES vehicles which speaks volumes. Before purchasing the ES looked at the NX and had a 45 minute test drive (a different use case of vehicle I know) also driven the Camry and Rav4 from Toyota. In terms of soundproofing the ES beats them all by a significant margin.

[george72]

Having previously driven a 2019 ES300h, i can certainly say that the MY23 is much much better from the point of view of general refinement- sound proofing is really very good indeed. I appreciate and understand some of the criticism around quality of some of the materials compared to other cars in the class (there are quite a few areas of scratchy plastic) but again, i totally accept them given the relatively low price.

   

[Linas.P]

7 hours ago, Derant said:

 if I remember correctly, has never actually driven an ES

You remember wrong...

Sound proofing obviously will be better in Lexus, hence it weights like 150kg more than equivalent Avalon (ES is based on Avalon and not Camry), that said the drivetrain is same on all 3 (if you get same spec hybrid), it feels exactly the same to drive, it handles exactly the same if anything Avalon/Camry being slightly lighter feel nippier and more keen. From drivers position is is hard to find any differences between Avalon and ES, blindfolded I doubt you would be able to tell which car you are sitting in (except of obvious differences like infotainment controls). But for example steering wheel is identical with identical buttons, the buttons on the door are the same, not similar - they are exactly identical in both cars. My biggest issue overall were cheap feeling plastics everywhere in the cabin (and this was F-Sport + Takumi). Now you will find cheap plastics in every car and that is fine, maybe somewhere in the boot or under the dash, but compared to other Lexus in ES driver is just surrounded by cheap plastics - all "brushed aluminium" effect plastics, the black plastic on the centre console and near the window controls, they all feel cheap and they are exactly the sort of plastics used in cheaper models. I was told previously that I am wrong and I should have tried the actual Takumi, but that is may experience from the "top of the range" fully loaded F-Sport + Takumi. Fair to say - I have complained about cheap "carbon fibre" effect plastics in RC and IS, but that was only one single piece surrounding windows control buttons, on ES that is pretty much all around the driver, which is what cheapens the car a lot. 

The ES existed from the beginning and it sold well worldwide for the price. That is the key thing - everything is worth something and at the right price the ES is good car for somebody. Not for me, but for somebody it is good car. However, GS replacement it is not, it is far inferior car and when coming at the same price as GS it is just not good deal. So that is sold well for 7 generations really means nothing and it is kind of pointless fact... Golf is on it's 9th generation now? Does that mean Golf is better than ES? What are you trying to say? 

33 minutes ago, Cs150 said:

In terms of soundproofing the ES beats them all by a significant margin.

What Lexus staff decides to drive... I assume what doesn't sell 🙂

As for sound proofing I agree (actually ES is extremely quiet car inside), but the response is same as above... as well it almost makes it worse, because better sound proofing allows you to hear all cheap plastic parts creaking inside. So OK - ES wins on single criteria which is soundproofing? Hooray - if your only criteria is soundproofing then you have yourself a winner! What else it is good at? I am not saying sound proofing is not important, but that is very far from the most important criteria for me when buying the car, not even top 10.

[Cs150]

46 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

You remember wrong...

Sound proofing obviously will be better in Lexus, hence it weights like 150kg more than equivalent Avalon (ES is based on Avalon and not Camry), that said the drivetrain is same on all 3 (if you get same spec hybrid), it feels exactly the same to drive, it handles exactly the same if anything Avalon/Camry being slightly lighter feel nippier and more keen. From drivers position is is hard to find any differences between Avalon and ES, blindfolded I doubt you would be able to tell which car you are sitting in (except of obvious differences like infotainment controls). But for example steering wheel is identical with identical buttons, the buttons on the door are the same, not similar - they are exactly identical in both cars. My biggest issue overall were cheap feeling plastics everywhere in the cabin (and this was F-Sport + Takumi). Now you will find cheap plastics in every car and that is fine, maybe somewhere in the boot or under the dash, but compared to other Lexus in ES driver is just surrounded by cheap plastics - all "brushed aluminium" effect plastics, the black plastic on the centre console and near the window controls, they all feel cheap and they are exactly the sort of plastics used in cheaper models. I was told previously that I am wrong and I should have tried the actual Takumi, but that is may experience from the "top of the range" fully loaded F-Sport + Takumi. Fair to say - I have complained about cheap "carbon fibre" effect plastics in RC and IS, but that was only one single piece surrounding windows control buttons, on ES that is pretty much all around the driver, which is what cheapens the car a lot. 

The ES existed from the beginning and it sold well worldwide for the price. That is the key thing - everything is worth something and at the right price the ES is good car for somebody. Not for me, but for somebody it is good car. However, GS replacement it is not, it is far inferior car and when coming at the same price as GS it is just not good deal. So that is sold well for 7 generations really means nothing and it is kind of pointless fact... Golf is on it's 9th generation now? Does that mean Golf is better than ES? What are you trying to say? 

What Lexus staff decides to drive... I assume what doesn't sell 🙂

As for sound proofing I agree (actually ES is extremely quiet car inside), but the response is same as above... as well it almost makes it worse, because better sound proofing allows you to hear all cheap plastic parts creaking inside. So OK - ES wins on single criteria which is soundproofing? Hooray - if your only criteria is soundproofing then you have yourself a winner! What else it is good at? I am not saying sound proofing is not important, but that is very far from the most important criteria for me when buying the car, not even top 10.

Best not to focus your energy on such a niche "one trick pony" of a vehicle. Saying it is such a niche car and of limited appeal you seem to have much time to spend communicating about the vehicle...

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

But for example steering wheel is identical with identical buttons

I stand to be corrected but I understood the steering wheel on the ES is shared with the LS, if true does that make the LS merely a Toyota in your world? A quick google search on an Avalon steering wheel brings up something completely different to my car …..except they are both round

[Linas.P]

5 minutes ago, Cs150 said:

Best not to focus your energy on such a niche "one trick pony" of a vehicle. Saying it is such a niche car and of limited appeal you seem to have much time to spend communicating about the vehicle...

My time is my business. 

As well there is no reason to get pi... about it - just recognise different opinion exists, this is not some sort of religious cult where only positive things can be said about the brand and all negative things are no allowed, regardless if they justified, objective or even subjective. This is public forum, people will have different opinions about things, even if unpopular. I am sure you want to have your cake and eat it too, but sadly when I hear ES mentioned and see people self-congratulating on the amazing decision they have made I want into that action too 😄

So you had your little party here congratulating each other and justifying - "why buy it" and I think it is ok for me to come and provide little bit of balancing to say what I think about the car after trying it (and it's it's identical twins), what I liked about it and what I didn't... and why in the end I decided I would not buy it (cannot say never, because for the right price any car could become appealing). I am sure that from 100 customers walking into Lexus dealership there is some proportion who decide - yes it is for me, and there is certain proportion who decide - no it isn't... I just represent that second group.

Lexus Avalon... sorry that is Toyota ES... sorry you know what I mean... is okey car. Putting it in perspective... is it better than WV Arteon... probably (that is the only real competitor for it on the market), perhaps lower spec. FWD Audi A6.. yeah likely. If Lexus would offer ES350 AWD here - even I would be interested! But let's not kid ourselves - it is not competitor to BMW 5 series, or MB E-Class and as far as I am concerned it is unsuccessful replacement/downgrade for Lexus GS, which I highly regard as great car. That does not mean it doesn't have positives, it is well equipped, roomy, quiet and I am sure it is reliable, which can't be said about German competitors... even the looks which I hated at first I would agree have grown on me, F-Sport look alright in person.

That it is niche vehicle... yes it is sorry that is a fact. IS it bad that it is niche vehicle really depends on perspective... some would say that is positive. 

[Linas.P]

11 minutes ago, Derant said:

I stand to be corrected but I understood the steering wheel on the ES is shared with the LS, if true does that make the LS merely a Toyota in your world? A quick google search on an Avalon steering wheel brings up something completely different to my car …..except they are both round

Well... ultimately all Lexus are Toyota. What makes a difference is better or more premium materials. The other distinct difference in my opinion is whenever Toyota equivalent model exist or not, for LS and LC (and GS and IS and RC) there are no Toyota equivalents, so those are "true" Lexus cars. Now can the car be dressed-up enough to become Lexus - yes it can, good examples are RX and NX (Harrier/Highlander and RAV4) or even LX (Landcruiser), Lexus just spent time and money revising them to the point where they feel nothing alike their Toyota equivalents. On other hand ES and UX only received minor cosmetic changes, but not enough to make them feel a different car. This is very clearly my opinion, so take it or leave it - I don't really care, but I have driven ES, Avalon and Camry and as far as driving I prefer Camry the most, as far as overall feeling I can't tell Avalon and ES apart and if in UK we had Avalon which costs £8k less then I would choose it over the ES any day. Realistically I would not choose either as I am allergic to FWD, but Avalon is just better value for money and ES is just not substantial enough upgrade to justify different price and badge.

Looking at steering wheels... yes it seems like LS steering wheels is very similar to ES (not sure if the size is the same), but it is very clear that both ES and Avalon has same basic wheels structure underneath (as can clearly be seen below), buttons are the same (be it styled slightly differently). Note - my comment is true for 2019 models and that is what I tried... if Lexus later updated the wheel then I am stand corrected. As well I noted comment above by Rakesh - perhaps Lexus did refine ES between 2019 and 2023, I have not driven 2023 car, when I have a chance I will try it and I will sure change my opinion if that is true. Yet that still changes very little as I have driven 2016 GS300h and 2012 and 2014 GS450h and aforementioned 2019 ES300h and I just can't find any reason to choose ES over GS. GS is just better car all around. Likewise I have driven probably 6 or 7 different IS300h for what is combined thousands of miles and again I would choose IS over ES, especially considering that IS is cheaper and with folding seats arguably more practical. The only real advantage of ES over IS is the rear passenger comfort, which ranks very very low on my priorities and that is why I often joke that ES would make great taxi... if somebody is picking me up from airport I would be delighted to see ES pulling in to pick me up, being at the back of it is genuinely nice place to be in, being in driver seat.. not so much. 

Finally, again - no reason to get upset about it and defensive - you have your opinion I have mine. 

[royoftherovers]

21 hours ago, First_Lexus said:

^^ Really? I’d never have called the NX an “upmarket Yaris.” 😆

Neither would i Ed.

[beyond the blue]

3 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Well... ultimately all Lexus are Toyota. What makes a difference is better or more premium materials. The other distinct difference in my opinion is whenever Toyota equivalent model exist or not, for LS and LC (and GS and IS and RC) there are no Toyota equivalents, so those are "true" Lexus cars. Now can the car be dressed-up enough to become Lexus - yes it can, good examples are RX and NX (Harrier/Highlander and RAV4) or even LX (Landcruiser), Lexus just spent time and money revising them to the point where they feel nothing alike their Toyota equivalents. On other hand ES and UX only received minor cosmetic changes, but not enough to make them feel a different car. This is very clearly my opinion, so take it or leave it - I don't really care, but I have driven ES, Avalon and Camry and as far as driving I prefer Camry the most, as far as overall feeling I can't tell Avalon and ES apart and if in UK we had Avalon which costs £8k less then I would choose it over the ES any day. Realistically I would not choose either as I am allergic to FWD, but Avalon is just better value for money and ES is just not substantial enough upgrade to justify different price and badge.

Looking at steering wheels... yes it seems like LS steering wheels is very similar to ES (not sure if the size is the same), but it is very clear that both ES and Avalon has same basic wheels structure underneath (as can clearly be seen below), buttons are the same (be it styled slightly differently). Note - my comment is true for 2019 models and that is what I tried... if Lexus later updated the wheel then I am stand corrected. As well I noted comment above by Rakesh - perhaps Lexus did refine ES between 2019 and 2023, I have not driven 2023 car, when I have a chance I will try it and I will sure change my opinion if that is true. Yet that still changes very little as I have driven 2016 GS300h and 2012 and 2014 GS450h and aforementioned 2019 ES300h and I just can't find any reason to choose ES over GS. GS is just better car all around. Likewise I have driven probably 6 or 7 different IS300h for what is combined thousands of miles and again I would choose IS over ES, especially considering that IS is cheaper and with folding seats arguably more practical. The only real advantage of ES over IS is the rear passenger comfort, which ranks very very low on my priorities and that is why I often joke that ES would make great taxi... if somebody is picking me up from airport I would be delighted to see ES pulling in to pick me up, being at the back of it is genuinely nice place to be in, being in driver seat.. not so much. 

Finally, again - no reason to get upset about it and defensive - you have your opinion I have mine. 

The only similarity l can see in those steering wheels is they are both circular, in my opinion.