Research shows it costs more to run an EV on long journeys

[First_Lexus]

11 hours ago, Mr Vlad said:

Ed. The buildings in the cities produce something like 20X more pollution than the cars in that city do.

An affordable public transport system won't happen again until their propulsion methods are much greener. The use of green hydrogen,which as it happens is on the up and up slowly but surely, will help greatly towards public transport vehicles. 

Most railways in this country are already powered electrically. Trams in other cities are the same. Even buses, powered by diesel, must be (massive assumption here!) less polluting than all of the people using them using their own vehicles instead? I saw some numbers the other day noting that the shift to home working has increased overall emissions so I’m assuming similar logic.

That said, I agree with your point. Less harmful propulsion methods are needed across the piece. I guess my position is shifting towards public transport. It is easy to forget that the explosion in ownership of private cars has only really happened within the last one hundred years. In the grand scheme of human history that’s a footnote, and will probably end up being seen as one in a few hundred years from now.

Regardless of all of the above, I’m clear now that EVs will only ever be a small part of the solution to emissions and global warming. Unless the whole planet acts together - and places like China stop fossil fuelled power generation rather than expanding it - we may as well not bother other than to make a point and to try and encourage others through our example.

 

[dutchie01]

If you want the entire street to be clean and proper you have to start with your own house? 

[08ISF]

37 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

If you want the entire street to be clean and proper you have to start with your own house? 

Fair point, but you have to make sure that cleaning your own house doesn't bankrupt you and get you evicted.

The simple truth is that reducing carbon and pollution is not even on the radar of the majority of the people who inhabit China, India, South America, etc , they are too busy with more pressing things like feeding their family. There are some very bad things coming our way due to global warming and if we spend all our money on a futile attempt to reduce it when nobody else cares , we'll have no resources to deal with the effects of it. I've been involved with trying to reduce carbon emissions for many years and its futile to try and get to zero carbon unless everybody and I mean everybody is on the same page as we are a hydrocarbon dependent civilization and it's going to take generations to change that if it is indeed possible.

Just my opinion.

[Linas.P]

3 hours ago, First_Lexus said:

I saw some numbers the other day noting that the shift to home working has increased overall emissions so I’m assuming similar logic.

REALLY? working from home "increased OVERALL pollution"... I would like to see the article which states that!

Maybe household pollution? That would make sense, but overall pollution dropped by 70% during lockdowns and it is obvious to anyone that not commuting to work is most environmentally friendly way of "transport".

3 hours ago, First_Lexus said:

Even buses, powered by diesel, must be (massive assumption here!) less polluting than all of the people using them using their own vehicles instead?

I saw some numbers the other day noting that the shift to home working has increased overall emissions so I’m assuming similar logic.

Busses powered by diesel are less polluting ... assuming they carry ~30 people or more, but only compared to those 30 people driving their own clapped out diesel car... So in the morning rush hour when the bus has like 100 people on board they are cleaner... but at all other times of the day they are more polluting, yet they still have to run based on the schedule. That is as well ignoring usually poor condition of the busses, yes they are being professionally maintained, but there is nothing that maintenance can do for engine running in the city for million miles. What I am saying - buses are cleaner than personal vehicles, especially with only 1 passenger inside, but as well overall you would be surprised how little difference there is - and that is because average car is in better mechanical condition then the bus, not all of them are diesel, there are petrols hybrids etc.

Overall - that is just splitting hair here, transportation IS NOT the biggest contributor to global air pollution. And distinction is very important to understand - air quality in the city is different from global air pollution. So in the city I believe it is currently estimated that air pollution comes from private vehicles (40%) and public transport with households are 30% each - I have reasons to disagree with these numbers, but if we assume they are correct, then it is still shows that public transport pollutes a lot!

On top of that... because transportation isn't biggest contributor anyway, I am completely happy running my own car and pollution even if it kills baby seals (within reason, not talking about those running without DPFs and EGRs and not seeing issue with that)... one thing for sure - I am not getting on the damn bus even if they would be powered by pollution and exhaust would be just fresh mountain air! Sorry, but my basic human decency doesn't allow me to get on the bus.

[First_Lexus]

5 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

REALLY? working from home "increased OVERALL pollution"... I would like to see the article which states that!

Maybe household pollution? That would make sense, but overall pollution dropped by 70% during lockdowns and it is obvious to anyone that not commuting to work is most environmentally friendly way of "transport".

To be clear, emissions have increased because of people working from home vs working in an office according to the research I saw.

If those emissions have risen then my simple mind says that overall must have also risen because of that factor, but I’m sure there’s another six page essay coming telling me why that isn’t the case…😆

[Linas.P]

48 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

If you want the entire street to be clean and proper you have to start with your own house? 

The only result of that will be one clean house on the dirty street. I am not saying to keep your house dirty because the street is dirty, but it just isn't how it works in reality... you being clean doesn't do anything to the rest of the street.

The only way for entire street to be clean is for "house and street cleaning" to be affordable/accessible and enforced.

For example - me not buying cheap disposable clothing, electronics, toys, shoes etc. has not stopped majority of consumers doing it, when I go out to shops I see mums with kids with full bag of literal trash which will be used once and thrown away... that does not mean I stopped doing what I am doing and I continue to buy only good quality goods which I keep for very long time, but I am not under any illusion that my actions makes any difference to the world. So yes we need to do what is right ... FOR OURSELVES. Not in a selfish way, but just don't expect anyone to notice and change their ways just because you are such a great role model. This sort of altruistic thinking that "starting from yourself you can change the world"... is kind of naive.. sorry.

[Linas.P]

9 minutes ago, First_Lexus said:

To be clear, emissions have increased because of people working from home vs working in an office according to the research I saw.

If those emissions have risen then my simple mind says that overall must have also risen because of that factor, but I’m sure there’s another six page essay coming telling me why that isn’t the case…😆

Well - please share that research, because that simply cannot be the case. Commuting is probably the most wasteful thing humans do... and not only it is wasteful, but as well most pointless. 

By the way I am not attacking the messenger - I just want to see how somebody in a name of "office culture" managed to twist the facts to their narrative to reach conclusion that person who doesn't needlessly travel for 2 hours everyday creates more pollution than simply sitting at home, which is already heated, already needs electricity and already exists and how basically mere internet connection pollutes more than any form of transport... not to mention that internet connection already exists and the difference between it being used and unused is tiny. It just somehow doesn't make sense to me - but I am happy to be proven wrong, maybe some office lovers can prove me wrong!

And that is before I even start on how building office building on average creates so much pollution that every person in that office can drive to it for 300 years and still not going to exceed the pollution created in that process. The point - making building materials are extremely carbon intensive process, especially concrete, steel and glass (which accidentally are what modern offices are made of). Now sure the argument could be - but office is built already anyway, but so are homes... and offices can be converted to homes as well, so there isn't much waste if we stop using them.

[Las Palmas]

3 hours ago, First_Lexus said:

Most railways in this country are already powered electrically. Trams in other cities are the same. Even buses, powered by diesel, must be (massive assumption here!) less polluting than all of the people using them using their own vehicles instead? I saw some numbers the other day noting that the shift to home working has increased overall emissions so I’m assuming similar logic.

In cities the good old-fashioned trams with electric wires hanging everywhere actually did function. In Copenhagen there were lots of these when I was young. They sold many of them more than 50 years, with rails and wires etc. to Egypt (Alexandria Passengers Transport Authority (APTA)) where some of them are still functioning; many of the trams were just burned. Value of these would today have been in many millions. Politicians are plain stupid all over the world.

In cities electric wires could transport power to traffic, but outside cities that is not really the solution.

Germany found that setting up wires for electric trains and maintaining them would not be possible or reasonable so many places that they are now having hydrogen powered trains running passenger and goods transport these places and so far, they are thinking making more hydrogen trains. I believe there are several places in UK, where setting up wires and maintaining these will be not just a little too expensive.

[Mr Vlad]

Some very good points. 

I'm about to start a new thread that really surprised me and cheered me up. Keep an eye out. Along the lines of synthetic fuel. 

[Las Palmas]

More news about hydrogen for whoever is interested.

As cars are a very little consumer of fuel and thus not producing immense amount of pollution, most hydrogen is not going to be used in cars.

Maybe not interesting for only car enthusiasts, but those few who care about leaving the world in a manageable condition for the coming generations could find that it is good that some are interested in finding power sources that can be stored in other places than batteries that in my eyes are only the good solution in applications needing little power such as among many other things in laptops and phones.

I am not against electric motors in cars and do not need the growl of a huge combustion engine, but dislike the stupidity of having heavy batteries that last much shorter time than the motors and pollutes far too much when being made and depend on materials not existing in sufficient quantity.

 

Researchers use sea water to produce green hydrogen at almost 100% efficiency

 

 

 

Sea water hasn’t been a viable option because the salt in the water is highly corrosive.

“We have split natural seawater into oxygen and hydrogen with nearly 100 percent efficiency, to produce green hydrogen by electrolysis, using a non-precious and cheap catalyst in a commercial electrolyser,” explained Professor Shi-Zhang Qiao, project leader at the School of Chemical Engineering at the University of Adelaide.

 

 

Clean Hydrogen Partnership to fund nine hydrogen valleys projects

 

The projects will now begin negotiations for grant agreements.

The Clean Hydrogen Partnership, under the Horizon Europe Programme, has announced it is investing €105.4 million for funding nine hydrogen valleys across Europe, and negotiations for the grant agreements for these projects have begun and are expected to conclude before summer 2023.

The projects focus on the production of green hydrogen.

The hydrogen valleys projects will focus on the production of clean hydrogen, address various applications in energy, transport and industry sectors, and are expected to mobilize investments of a minimum of five times the funding provided by the European Union or above €500 million.

Additionally, the European Commission allocated an extra €200 million ($216.47 million) to the Clean Hydrogen Partnership via REPowerEU to further benefit the hydrogen valleys.

A public-private partnership supporting research and innovation activities in H2 technologies in Europe under the Horizon Europe Programme, The Clean Hydrogen Partnership has multiple members, including the European Commission, Hydrogen Europe (representing hydrogen industries), and Hydrogen Europe Research (representing the research community).

Hydrogen valleys are regional ecosystem that link hydrogen production, hydrogen transportation, and a variety of end uses like industrial feedstock or mobility. According to the Clean Hydrogen Partnership, the H2 valleys concept is one of the main priorities of industry and the European Commission for scaling-up H2 deployments and establishing interconnected hydrogen ecosystems throughout Europe.

“These nine valleys will be planting the seeds of the envisioned hydrogen economy, incubating hydrogen valley hubs simultaneously at several EU MS, interconnecting and transitioning them into a growth value chain at scale,” Said, Melyssa Verykios, Chair of the Governing Board of the Clean Hydrogen Partnership.

 

 

Demonstration hydrogen carrier project set to launch in Australia

Large quantities of green hydrogen will be shipped to Japan using conventional tankers.

An eight-month demonstration project set to launch in Australia will produce a hydrogen carrier that is capable of being shipped on conventional tankers that will bring the product to Japan for the purpose of fueling hydrogen fuel cell applications, such as hydrogen cars.

Hydrogen will be manufactured in an inert carrier that is stable and easy to ship.

The Japan-based Eneos Corporation – the country’s largest fuel provider – is undertaking the hydrogen project. Working to become a regional leader in Asia for energy, Eneos’ project is the second step in a commercialization project that will result in substantial quantities of green hydrogen generated from solar power and shipped to Japan to supply fuel to hydrogen vehicles.

Methylcyclohexane (MCH), the new hydrogen carrier, is produced using a proprietary low-cost “electrochemical synthesis of organic hydride.” MCH, a method developed by Eneos, uses the electrochemical synthesis method with toluene. Unlike hydrogen, which needs complex handling and extreme cold temperatures, MCH can be shipped at ambient temperatures on traditional tankers.

Eneos’ method simplifies the shipment of hydrogen by suspending it in a carrier. Once it has shipped to its destination, the next step is the MCH dehydrogenation process, where water is removed and hydrogen fuel is extracted.

The hydrogen carrier demonstration plant is located in Australia.

Brisbane, Australia is the home of the new production facility. The demonstration plant will generate green MCH containing hydrogen by combing a 150-kilowatt-scale medium-sized electrolyzer with a 250-kilowatt solar power system in Queensland. The goal is to maximize production efficiency and prove the durability of the electrolzyer under subtropic conditions.

 

 

[Mr Vlad]

Way hey I've seen those articles recently. Someone very clever down there in Oz 👍

[Las Palmas]

4 hours ago, Mr Vlad said:

Way hey I've seen those articles recently. Someone very clever down there in Oz 👍

Yes, clever people can be found everywhere. And that they think they will be able to make money on producing hydrogen making more of it than they need themselves is very good for others to see as making money is what can gather investors and more money can attract more brains.

Not that sending with tankers is without pollution unless of course if the tankers are powered with hydrogen themselves. So far Maersk have not been very informative about their testing it on their own ships.

https://www.maersk.com/news/articles/2022/11/03/maersk-and-the-spanish-government-to-explore-large-scale-green-fuels-production

https://www.maersk.com/news/articles/2022/03/28/maersk-explores-new-ways-to-accelerate-green-fuel-production

 

[Las Palmas]

Before we got the CT, I considered Toyota a brand more or less OK. Almost as good as Nissan, but well below Honda and Subaru in quality.

That Honda is now entering the hydrogen field with a partner as big as GM make it likely that they will be able to reach the target to be a serious competitor to the EV cars, that will have its usefulness for people having more than one car or people that only need the car for local shopping. If these people have a charger for the cars home. Meaning that the market for EV cars will be very limited, as all of us living in flats where home charging will not be possible have no use for a fully electric car powered with a Battery.

 

Honda and GM to Produce Systems for Hydrogen Fuel Cell Cars and Trucks

 By BRET WILLIAMS                https://www.hydrogenfuelnews.com/author/bret-2-2-2/

The systems will start being produced this year with gradual production increases over this decade.

 

A hydrogen fuel cell system co-developed by Honda Motor and General Motors (GM) will begin production this year and will gradually increase its numbers throughout this decade.

 

Honda is taking steps to expand their H2 business by making this move.

 

The hydrogen fuel cell system will be produced by Honda Motor in Japan. It aims to hit annual sales of about 2,000 units of the system by around 2025. After that, it will aim to increase those sales to 60,000 units per year by the close of 2030.

Honda is aiming to widen the use of this new H2 system not only for its own passenger vehicles, but also for heavy trucks and other commercial vehicles, as well as construction machinery and stationary power stations.

The announcement that production of the system will begin this year was made by Shinji Aoyama, Honda’s senior managing executive director. It was made at a company event in Tokyo, Shinji Aoyama was addressing reporters.

The company’s new hydrogen fuel cell system is meant to double durability and slash costs.

The new system will be over twice as durable than the previous model of the system, while reducing its cost by two thirds.

“While commercial vehicles are in use all over the world, they’ll likely see electrification just as with passenger cars,” said Honda general manager of the hydrogen business development division Tetsuya Hasebe. He added that it is likely that this will likely lead to a divergence in the trucking category as some use batteries and others will be powered by H2. Many experts in green energy and in the automotive industry agree.

Automakers are divided as to whether the future of passenger vehicles will be in Battery electrics or hydrogen cars. That said, experts are increasingly stating that it is unlikely that there will be a single answer for everyone. Instead, it is more likely that there will be two or more options on tomorrow’s roads, allowing consumers and businesses to choose the technologies that best suit their needs and preferences.

 

 

[javadude]

16 hours ago, Las Palmas said:

Meaning that the market for EV cars will be very limited, as all of us living in flats where home charging will not be possible have no use for a fully electric car powered with a battery.

You just charge while at work, the supermarket, in town shopping, at the gym, at the pub. That's how I did it when staying away somewhere without a charger. It worked fine.

[08ISF]

9 minutes ago, javadude said:

You just charge while at work, the supermarket, in town shopping, at the gym, at the pub. That's how I did it when staying away somewhere without a charger. It worked fine.

That's fine at the moment, where the ratio of chargers to EV's allows it. But the indications are that provision of chargers is not keeping up with sales of EV's so at some point in the future  there will be big queues at all the charge points....... As we saw over Xmas with the Tesla charge points.

[Mr Vlad]

Correct Graham but Chris I believe have a tesla and those owners have a charging network 2nd to none but they even fail. Charging a car at work I'd say only works at office type buildings. You won't find a charger at a factory making biscuits or a logistics yard or a fruit n veg delivery firm. As for supermarkets there few and far between from what I've seen. 

[Las Palmas]

6 hours ago, javadude said:

You just charge while at work, the supermarket, in town shopping, at the gym, at the pub. That's how I did it when staying away somewhere without a charger. It worked fine.

If you find a charger that actually does function. When you have time to wait while it charges. When price of electricity continues to climb mountains and electricity grid is not sufficient. When your Battery is no longer holding enough power to get you from A to B. Just look at laptops and smartphones, a few years old and no longer holding power like they did in the beginning, are batteries for cars better?

Absolutely not promising.

EV cars are promoted by brain dead politicians. And when no longer in the politician's agenda, they will be flushed out like dirty water.

[Las Palmas]

BMW to launch small test fleet of H2 cars to use truck hydrogen fuel stations

 By JULIE CAMPBELL                    https://www.hydrogenfuelnews.com/author/julie-2-2-2-2-2/

 

The automaker plans to roll out a small number of H2 passenger cars to ride the future of H2 trucks.

 

BMW is aiming to take a ride on the network of hydrogen fuel stations for trucks in order to help overcome the challenge associated with building an expensive network specifically for passenger cars.

 

A lack of refuelling locations is among the largest challenges in the way of H2 for passenger vehicles.

 

The automaker is taking steps ahead on this opportunity even as Battery electric vehicles continue to be the most popular zero-emission vehicle option. That said, with networks planned for hydrogen fuel stations to serve trucks, the company sees an opportunity to test a small fleet of fuel cell cars.

According to the German carmaker’s CEO Oliver Zipse, fuel cell cars is an option that is climate friendly and that will appeal to as many as 30 percent of its customers.

“The key is to build combined hydrogen gas stations for passenger cars and trucks,” explained the head of BMW’s H2 tech program, Jürgen Guldner. “It’s much easier to set up hydrogen stations for larger truck fleets as logistics operators already show interest in this.”

BMW is looking at the truck hydrogen fuel stations network as an opportunity for passenger vehicles.

The automaker sees considerable potential in the availability of a growing hydrogen fuel stations network to boost the appeal of H2 passenger cars, even as the cost of electric vehicle batteries continues to fall and those vehicles hold onto their lead in the zero-emission passenger vehicle category.

Considerable challenges stand in the way of the widespread popularity of H2 cars. This has already caused several automakers, including luxury car rivals Mercedes-Benz and Audi, to phase out their pursuit of vehicles running on this green energy.

[Las Palmas]

When digging for raw materials to make EV batteries in poor countries the disasters are very many.

 

Extracting nickel from mines in Indonesia has major environmental consequences, where rainforests are often cleared to make room for mining. Here, a tugboat with nickel capsized, resulting in pollution of the waters off the island of Sulawesi.

[Mr Vlad]

Now that's what I call a Mahusive OOOPS.

[Las Palmas]

World’s largest hydrogen power plant and electrolyzer to open in Australia

By JOHN MAX                        https://www.hydrogenfuelnews.com/author/john-2-2-2/

The facility will be substantially larger than anything running today.

South Australia plans to bring an ambitious green energy project to fruition by building the largest hydrogen power plant in the world, which will be home to an electrolysis facility that is ten times bigger than any other H2 power station currently in operation.

The plant will absorb extra renewable energy from the state’s grid.

Additionally, the hydrogen power plant will run the excess green energy through a massive 250-megawatt (MW) electrolysis facility, allowing for the production of large amounts of hydrogen. The hydrogen that is created will be stored on site.

The plan is to run the hydrogen through a 200-MW generator facility and put energy back into the grid during times when renewable energy production is at its lowest, during the evenings and through winter months. The hydrogen will either be burned to drive steam turbines or it will be converted back to electricity via a massive fuel cell stack.

The hydrogen power plant will help to prevent strain on the grid.

The goal of the green hydrogen plant is to help balance supply and demand in the South Australian grid. Presently, more than 69% of all South Australia’s electricity is generated from solar and wind energy, and it’s expected to generate 100% from renewables before 2030.

Currently, the Australian’ state generates more solar power than it can consume, to the point that the government has previously requested consumers to turn on as many appliance as possible to avoid an electricity overload. The plan is to operate the electrolyzer during the day, when solar energy production is at its peak, and then shut it off at night.

According to Sam Crafter, the CEO of the Office of Hydrogen Power South Australia, by building a world leading project, the hope is that it will lead to larger projects, at the neighbouring Port Bonython green hydrogen hub and at the steel city of Whyalla.

“It will be…the launching pad to get to those larger scale projects that the industry is rushing towards,” Crafter told Renew Economy.

The hydrogen power plant will be developed by the Office of Hydrogen Power South Australia. The project will receive funds of AU$600 million (US$414 million) from the South Australian State Government and be constructed near the city of Whyalla, about 100 km northwest of Adelaide. The plant is expected to be operational by 2025.

[javadude]

On 2/9/2023 at 4:08 PM, Las Palmas said:

EV cars are promoted by brain dead politicians. And when no longer in the politician's agenda, they will be flushed out like dirty water.

The government only promotes EVs because it makes sense for the environment and because of pressure from consumers and scientists. It's much easier to tax legacy ICE vehicles than EVs.

EVs are not in the interest of legacy car manufacturers because of the cost of development and manufacturing changes. and loss of servicing revenue. They'd rather keep selling ICE vehicles. 

EVs are not in the interest of oil companies which is why their interest in synthatic fuel and hydrogen so they can keep making a profit from consumers.

[javadude]

On 2/10/2023 at 11:52 AM, Las Palmas said:

When digging for raw materials to make EV batteries in poor countries the disasters are very many.

Extracting nickel from mines in Indonesia has major environmental consequences, where rainforests are often cleared to make room for mining. Here, a tugboat with nickel capsized, resulting in pollution of the waters off the island of Sulawesi.

You do know your hybrid has a Battery?

[Mr Vlad]

Very good and interesting points there Chris. Nicely said.

[javadude]

On 2/9/2023 at 4:08 PM, Las Palmas said:

 a few years old and no longer holding power like they did in the beginning, are batteries for cars better?

Yes. Newer Battery technology (eg cobalt-free LFP batteries) and better cooling and management system. The latest EVs are better than the earliest (eg Leaf didn't have active cooling).