Research shows it costs more to run an EV on long journeys

[Las Palmas]

22 minutes ago, javadude said:

You do know your hybrid has a battery?

Yes. Not same kind. not from rare earth materials.

[Las Palmas]

25 minutes ago, javadude said:

The government only promotes EVs because it makes sense for the environment and because of pressure from consumers and scientists. It's much easier to tax legacy ICE vehicles than EVs.

EVs are not in the interest of legacy car manufacturers because of the cost of development and manufacturing changes. and loss of servicing revenue. They'd rather keep selling ICE vehicles. 

EVs are not in the interest of oil companies which is why their interest in synthatic fuel and hydrogen so they can keep making a profit from consumers.

You have high esteem of brain power of politicians. They are the reason all is going so good all over the world?

[Spock66]

46 minutes ago, javadude said:

You do know your hybrid has a battery?

Yes but much smaller capacity and hence uses much less raw material.

50 minutes ago, javadude said:

The government only promotes EVs because it makes sense for the environment and because of pressure from consumers and scientists. It's much easier to tax legacy ICE vehicles than EVs.

I think that's a very naive view, ultimately it's a political decision which is usually based on economics.

[Mr Vlad]

My view is governments jump on a bandwagon which was created by numpties in another countries government which was actually created by other numpties in another countries government. But it all started I think by a brave young girl who had the kahonies to speak up on a genuine subject. 

Governments have spin doctors who basically are paid by BIG companies via backhanded to shepherd the ministers in the direction those BIG companies want and those BIG companies aren't necessarily Britain ones cough cough.

[flotsam]

Presumably because public chargers charge a higher rate than the electricity form your home.

Other bad news is that the number of electric cars are increasing at a faster rate than the number of chargers.

I still think the government's "nudge unit" are trying to nudge everyone into spending their own money on home-insulation, wind turbines and solar panels instead of ACTUALLY organising a sensible infrastructure. Isn't that what we're supposed to be paying our taxes for? They're also still pushing heat-pumps rather than rolling out hydrogen for home-heating. But all I've read suggests they cost an arm and a leg, only heat to about 40°C and you need loads of insulation, solar panels and HUGE radiators otherwise your freeze.

If they stick their neck out and try and do something, then they risk getting the blame if it all goes south. So all we're being left with is bad options so that we have to spend all the time, money and effort to cope with what the government have left as options.

Despite Elon Musk touting a million-mile Battery, I haven't heard of anything developing. So after about six or seven years you have a Battery that won't accept charge anymore; a very expensive brick.

 

[flotsam]

The House of Lords has attacked hydrogen, at least in the short term. The hydrogen industry has hit back.

One letter in the Telegraph claims that it costs about £10,000 to install (minus the government subsidy) and £500 maintenance costs each year as they're unreliable and break down. Below 0°C they have problems. Obviously, trying to extract heat from the air means the colder it gets the less efficient they become. You're not supposed to put freezers outdoors either because they stop working if it gets too cold, freezers being heat pumps in reverse.

[flotsam]

BMW opts for HYDROGEN!!!!! "Goodbye E-cars: BMW Wants to Mass-Produce Hydrogen Cars"

Don't bother with a Battery powered car. It looks like the government wants you to buy one so that you supply the grid with your car Battery, degrading its life, which is only a few years as it is and then buy solar panels and wind turbines too.

The only maintenance, as I understand it, is just changing a few filters on a hydrogen fuel cell. Stuff Elon Musk and his million mile Battery which hasn't seen the light of day anyway!

 

[Mincey]

5 hours ago, flotsam said:

BMW opts for HYDROGEN!!!!! "Goodbye E-cars: BMW Wants to Mass-Produce Hydrogen Cars"

Don't bother with a battery powered car. It looks like the government wants you to buy one so that you supply the grid with your car battery, degrading its life, which is only a few years as it is and then buy solar panels and wind turbines too.

The only maintenance, as I understand it, is just changing a few filters on a hydrogen fuel cell. Stuff Elon Musk and his million mile battery which hasn't seen the light of day anyway!

 

Well if BMW are going hydrogen then that surely is the end of the EV. You could stick a BMW badge on a turd and demand would soon outstrip supply so their hydrogen vehicles will sell, sell and sell some more. Some sense from the Bavarians at last. 

[dutchie01]

So where are you going to fill this up then?

[Shahpor]

The same article highlights the biggest problem with hydrogen cars that no one seems to have an answer for:

"Axel Rücker, Program Manager Hydrogen Fuel Cell at the BMW Group, explains:

We have a chicken-and-egg problem with hydrogen propulsion.

“As long as the network of hydrogen filling stations is so thin, the low demand from customers will not enable profitable series production of fuel cell cars. And as long as there are hardly any hydrogen cars on the roads, operators will be reluctant to expand their refuelling network.”"

Personally, I would like to see a dual setup scenario wherein you can buy either a pure electric or hydrogen fuel cell car.  This sounds like the best of both worlds and I would have one of each for local and long distance driving.

If only they could get both technologies to operate from the same location (rapid charging and hydrogen refuelling at the same stations), then it can work like petrol and diesel but I just can't see it, at least in the short term.

[Mr Vlad]

From what I've read hydrogen fill up stations are slowly but surely being installed. Starting with logistics yards as its HGV's and plant machinery that'll be developed quicker than cars. Some countries have a much better infrastructure for hydrogen than we do. Its a wait and see thing I suppose.

But hats off to BMW. Makes a change lol.

[flotsam]

EVs are a disaster.

You have to plan your long journey meticulously.

You hope to find a fast charger that's actually working because a slow charger means waiting hours and hours even if there's no queue and especially in the Winter.

As I've said, it's probably to "encourage" us to buy solar panels and wind turbines, as well as supplying Battery back-up for the grid.

Empty shelves are also here again, just as they were during Covid-19 lock-down. Are we supposed to have our own hens in the back yard and an allotment to grow our own fruit and veg.?

[flotsam]

They'll have to supply hydrogen fuel stations because large trucks aren't viable with batteries. They might make it illegal for cars to buy hydrogen as they do with red diesel. But eventually they'll have to let cars fill up with hydrogen too.

Articles are claiming hydrogen is difficult to transport and store. HOW?

[Mr Vlad]

Nicely said Samantha. Those articles about transporting hydrogen are BS. Crikey they transport petrol and gas by road. 

Too many self centred misinformed know it alls getting their 2 penneth in.

[Shahpor]

1 hour ago, flotsam said:

Articles are claiming hydrogen is difficult to transport and store. HOW?

This site explains it well:

https://www.twi-global.com/technical-knowledge/faqs/what-is-hydrogen-storage#:~:text=Why is it Difficult to Store Hydrogen%3F,easily lost into the atmosphere.

 

"Hydrogen is difficult to store due to its low volumetric energy density. It is the lightest of and simplest of all elements, being lighter than helium, and so is easily lost into the atmosphere.

Another challenge is the very low boiling point of liquid hydrogen (−252.8°C), which means that it needs to be kept cryogenically stored at low temperatures. Storing hydrogen as a gas also has its challenges as it typically requires the use of high pressure tanks (350-700 bar or 5000-10,000 psi)."

"However, there are still hazards related to hydrogen that mean additional engineering controls need to be put in place to ensure its safe use. With a lower ignition energy than petrol or natural gas, hydrogen has a wide range of flammable concentrations in the air meaning that ventilation and leak detection are important for hydrogen systems. Special flame detector are also required as hydrogen burns with a near-invisible flame.  Material selection for hydrogen systems is also important as some metals become brittle when exposed to hydrogen."

 

So, as you can see, some difficult engineering challenges need to be overcome before hydrogen becomes commonplace in forecourts.

[08ISF]

3 minutes ago, Shahpor said:

So, as you can see, some difficult engineering challenges need to be overcome before hydrogen becomes commonplace in forecourts.

Yes, but these are just engineering challenges which can be overcome, as they usually are. The  economic and socio political challenges posed by  the headlong rush to electric power are going to be much more difficult to overcome, if they ever can. We'll be fighting wars over the raw materials necessary for batteries.

[Mr Vlad]

I've just watched Guy Martins TV series about where we get our electricity from. This last episode he went to the Orkneys where because they produce Too much electricity for the habitants they now produce hydrogen. Oh they transport it no problem so whoever is saying it's difficult is talking out of their pooh tubes.

[flotsam]

22 hours ago, Shahpor said:

This site explains it well:

https://www.twi-global.com/technical-knowledge/faqs/what-is-hydrogen-storage#:~:text=Why is it Difficult to Store Hydrogen%3F,easily lost into the atmosphere.

 

"Hydrogen is difficult to store due to its low volumetric energy density. It is the lightest of and simplest of all elements, being lighter than helium, and so is easily lost into the atmosphere.

Another challenge is the very low boiling point of liquid hydrogen (−252.8°C), which means that it needs to be kept cryogenically stored at low temperatures. Storing hydrogen as a gas also has its challenges as it typically requires the use of high pressure tanks (350-700 bar or 5000-10,000 psi)."

"However, there are still hazards related to hydrogen that mean additional engineering controls need to be put in place to ensure its safe use. With a lower ignition energy than petrol or natural gas, hydrogen has a wide range of flammable concentrations in the air meaning that ventilation and leak detection are important for hydrogen systems. Special flame detector are also required as hydrogen burns with a near-invisible flame.  Material selection for hydrogen systems is also important as some metals become brittle when exposed to hydrogen."

 

So, as you can see, some difficult engineering challenges need to be overcome before hydrogen becomes commonplace in forecourts.

Does this mean the tank in a hydrogen fuel cell car has to cryogenically store the hydrogen?

 

[flotsam]

The cash for clunkers scheme and more recent claims that second-hand cars were getting better prices than brand-new models shows the policy. But Battery powered cars are not the answer. They certainly can't make huge semi-trucks Battery powered. Imagine getting stuck behind a lorry at a charging station. I once returned from a skiing trip and the coach coming down the mountain had to stop for petrol. My window was opposite the fuel pump and I watched as the petrol just kept on flowing.

[wharfhouse]

4 minutes ago, flotsam said:

Does this mean the tank in a hydrogen fuel cell car has to cryogenically store the hydrogen?

 

No, high pressure tanks are used

[wharfhouse]

2 minutes ago, flotsam said:

The cash for clunkers scheme and more recent claims that second-hand cars were getting better prices than brand-new models shows the policy. But battery powered cars are not the answer. They certainly can't make huge semi-trucks battery powered. Imagine getting stuck behind a lorry at a charging station. I once returned from a skiing trip and the coach coming down the mountain had to stop for petrol. My window was opposite the fuel pump and I watched as the petrol just kept on flowing.

Yes, it's looking like hydrogen is making some big strides now for commercial vehicle use (and aircraft, ships etc.) which IMHO means that the technology and economies of scale will accelerate and any remaining technical hurdles will quickly get resolved.

With the recent announced interest in hydrogen fuel cells again from a number of large and influential car manufacturers then trickle down to personal automotive is already underway. Regards the hydrogen infrastructure, then that largely exists within the existing fuel station network (so long as commercial deals can be done of course) as large scale hydrogen production will be needed for commercial (and possibly office/domestic heating etc.) and so not a huge leap to start and create the distribution to existing and/or new fuel station sites

Let's face, with the dismal roll-out of electric charge points in this country (and many others) actually creating a hydrogen distribution network when both commercial and many automotive manufacturers are starting to back it, which will likely bring in the major fuel providers too, is a more likely proposition than the hot-potch and fragmented underfunded network of electric chargers ever been up to the task. I've been to a few motorway services areas recently in the south of the country - these are busy motorways and yet the number of charging points was only 4 in each... Yet there were some 12 - 18 fuel pumps... (even if due to their ludicrous price of fuel they were largely unused). And at busier times those 4 electric charger points were busy with people waiting - I didn't stay for more than 1/2 hour at the services but the same people were still waiting for a charger to come free when I left - and then they would also have to wait for the car to charge too!

[dutchie01]

Plottwist!!

Today, this afternoon the European Parliament will vote on the official ban for Internal combustion engines as from 2035. It was expected to be a formality as all laws are prepared and everybody will vote for it.

BUT THEN!! Italy is going to vote against and Germany all of a sudden wants ICE continued with E-fuels. 

[Mincey]

4 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

Plottwist!!

Today, this afternoon the European Parliament will vote on the official ban for Internal combustion engines as from 2035. It was expected to be a formality as all laws are prepared and everybody will vote for it.

BUT THEN!! Italy is going to vote against and Germany all of a sudden wants ICE continued with E-fuels. 

Let's hope that common sense prevails.

[flotsam]

On 2/28/2023 at 11:02 AM, Shahpor said:

This site explains it well:

https://www.twi-global.com/technical-knowledge/faqs/what-is-hydrogen-storage#:~:text=Why is it Difficult to Store Hydrogen%3F,easily lost into the atmosphere.

 

"Hydrogen is difficult to store due to its low volumetric energy density. It is the lightest of and simplest of all elements, being lighter than helium, and so is easily lost into the atmosphere.

Another challenge is the very low boiling point of liquid hydrogen (−252.8°C), which means that it needs to be kept cryogenically stored at low temperatures. Storing hydrogen as a gas also has its challenges as it typically requires the use of high pressure tanks (350-700 bar or 5000-10,000 psi)."

"However, there are still hazards related to hydrogen that mean additional engineering controls need to be put in place to ensure its safe use. With a lower ignition energy than petrol or natural gas, hydrogen has a wide range of flammable concentrations in the air meaning that ventilation and leak detection are important for hydrogen systems. Special flame detector are also required as hydrogen burns with a near-invisible flame.  Material selection for hydrogen systems is also important as some metals become brittle when exposed to hydrogen."

 

So, as you can see, some difficult engineering challenges need to be overcome before hydrogen becomes commonplace in forecourts.

That's not true.

The Rough storage facility, Britain's largest doesn't store natural gas as super-cooled, LNG and was recently considered for storing hydrogen.

[flotsam]

4 minutes ago, flotsam said:

That's not true.

The Rough storage facility, Britain's largest doesn't store natural gas as super-cooled, LNG and was recently considered for storing hydrogen.

I also read about a hydrogen filling station several years ago, in America, the price was about $5 a kg. So you could fill up a hydrogen fuel-cell car for about $20. I don't know how they stored the hydrogen but they seem to have overcome any difficulties.